DPEs: how firm is the >50NM rule? Would distances of 49.5NM be rounded up?

[JackFliesGA]

Hi everyone! I am planning my first solo cross country, and there is one airfield that is 49.5 miles away from my home airport as measured from the geographic centers of both airports.

Would KLZU → KTOC be accepted by a DPE as a cross-country?

I figure KAHN → KPDK at 48.9 NM is not acceptable, but what about something like KRYY→6A2 at 49.8NM?

 

[Aviatorbrew]

Do the 50 plus,
Check rides are stressful enough, you don’t want that hanging over your head.

DPE’ are usually not flexible, 50 in the regs is 50,
Not worth taking a chance, always go over.
You certainly don’t want to make a DPE mad by not following the regs.

 

[Mongoose Aviator]

I repositioned my aircraft prior to my flight. Flew it “in the other direction” about 10 nm or so. Did a full stop landing. Never shut the engine off. Then did my intended flight. I found it less stressful to be sure there was no question of the flight being “long enough”.
In my logbook, I recorded the repositioning flight on one line (with a note that said repositioning) and the flight for the requirement on the next line.

 

[MauleSkinner]

The applicable regs read

That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure;

More than 50 miles means more than 50 miles.

It’s not about DPEs not being flexible…if the FAA finds out a DPE is “flexible”, he won’t be a DPE for long.
it’s not about making the DPE mad…determining that someone else is mad is pretty inaccurate a lot of the time, anyway.

it’s about complying with the regulations, and being proficient. Most of the pilots I’ve seen who consistently try to do the minimum allowable usually lack proficiency.

 

[TCABM]

49.8NM is not >50NM.

 

[KE5BM]

I've mentioned in other threads that I took over 20 years to finish my certification. One of the fields in my solo cross country no longer exists. DPE had to basically take my word for it that the field in question was greater than 50nm. Fortunately, the town it was attached to was a good amount further than 50nm so I showed him a google map satellite view of where the field used to be (now a big solar farm with the old runway barely visible) and he believed me. Had the field been right at 50, he would have had every right to nullify that flight.

 

[Mongoose Aviator]

I am planning my first solo cross country,

Did you see the route you would potentially fly for KRYY to 6A2 ?

That does not look like a good route for a first solo cross country.

Where is the aircraft based that you will be using? Where are you actually starting from? Prior to any repositioning flights?

 

[Kitch]

Why cut it short ? The idea is to fly isn't it ?

 

[JackFliesGA]

Do the 50 plus,
Check rides are stressful enough, you don’t want that hanging over your head.

DPE’ are usually not flexible, 50 in the regs is 50,
Not worth taking a chance, always go over.
You certainly don’t want to make a DPE mad by not following the regs.

That makes sense. We should demonstrate a love of margins even when flight planning!

Did you see the route you would potentially fly for KRYY to 6A2 ?

That does not look like a good route for a first solo cross country.

Where is the aircraft based that you will be using? Where are you actually starting from? Prior to any repositioning flights?

oh that wasn’t a route I was actually considered taking. I used the FAA to randomly look fields just shy of 50NM from my atlanta area towered airfields. I’m a math teacher who loves stats so I wondered how common it i might be to have neighboring fields at that distance. It’s actually seems rare.

it’s about complying with the regulations, and being proficient. Most of the pilots I’ve seen who consistently try to do the minimum allowable usually lack proficiency.

Absolutely agree. I’m trying to build in large margins in everything so why not in compliance as well. Make it not even a question whether it’s good and safe.

That said, I wonder when the regs were crafted if 50NM just seemed like a large-enough round number or if it’s actually some kind of statistical or navigational milestone. How much more navigational and decision making proficiency can you demonstrate with a landing point >45NM than at >50NM? It’s an extra 5 to 8 min in airtime. And if we need a total distance of 150NM anyways, >50NM seems kinda arbitrary.

I’m more interested in how that number got chosen than to debate whether it’s “correct”. Definitely going to plan a landing point 60NM-ish away since I have plenty near me. Just curious.

 

[MauleSkinner]

That said, I wonder when the regs were crafted if 50NM just seemed like a large-enough round number or if it’s actually some kind of statistical or navigational milestone. How much more navigational and decision making proficiency can you demonstrate with a landing point >45NM than at >50NM? It’s an extra 5 to 8 min in airtime. And if we need a total distance of 150NM anyways, >50NM seems kinda arbitrary.

I’m more interested in how that number got chosen than to debate whether it’s “correct”. Definitely going to plan a landing point 60NM-ish away since I have plenty near me. Just curious.

I doubt that there is much statistical background for the distance requirement. The goal is simply to get you outside of the area in which you normally fly, but without onerous requirements. Even for the slowest airplanes, 50 nm isn’t more than an hour with No wind. So it is somewhat arbitrary, but most regulatory cutoffs are.

 

[Lawson_Stone]

Hi everyone! I am planning my first solo cross country, and there is one airfield that is 49.5 miles away from my home airport as measured from the geographic centers of both airports.

Would KLZU → KTOC be accepted by a DPE as a cross-country?

I figure KAHN → KRYY at 48.9 NM is not acceptable, but what about something like KRYY→6A2 at 49.8NM?

For what it's worth, in my FltPlnGo app, KAHN-KRYY shows at 63 nm

 

[TommyG]

Hi everyone! I am planning my first solo cross country, and there is one airfield that is 49.5 miles away from my home airport as measured from the geographic centers of both airports.

Would KLZU → KTOC be accepted by a DPE as a cross-country?

I figure KAHN → KRYY at 48.9 NM is not acceptable, but what about something like KRYY→6A2 at 49.8NM?

Can’t find anything further? Going a little further doesn’t hurt, and it guarantees the miles and time required. See too mant times, an student was 1 mile short, or .2 short.

 

[Dave Theisen]

Remeasure RYY to AHN. It’s 64 nm.

 

[JackFliesGA]

Remeasure RYY to AHN. It’s 64 nm.

I meant KAHN→KPDK. ‍whoops! Fixed on OP

 

[JackFliesGA]

For anyone curious about my actual flight plan:

My home field is KLZU, so planning on a landing at KCZL with a view of the mountains, or KCEU with a view of the lakes, or KCCO with a view of metro Atlanta and overflight over Hartsfield Jackson (after my Bravo endo, of course).

 

[RyanShort1]

Hi everyone! I am planning my first solo cross country, and there is one airfield that is 49.5 miles away from my home airport as measured from the geographic centers of both airports.

Would KLZU → KTOC be accepted by a DPE as a cross-country?

I figure KAHN → KPDK at 48.9 NM is not acceptable, but what about something like KRYY→6A2 at 49.8NM?

I know you kind of "changed your tune" to say that you weren't trying to get by the minimums later in the thread, but as a CFI, I would urge you to be honest with yourself and make sure that you take away a lesson from this.

We are all tempted to cut corners here and there and that's a hazardous attitude right up front in your flight training. You especially don't want to do that with maintenance, or your own personal proficiency, with fuel, or with other important things.

 

[Brad W]

I have two.... no three general thoughts here.

1) to the curiosity based noodling question of the number.... I assume that you know it doesn't really matter and are probably just doing a thought exercise.....
keep in mind that the requirement was set long before we had the internet and computer charting, and these measurements would be made using an old fashioned paper chart and plotter. Back in those days....yeah, 49.8 would likely be well within the plotter tolerance and depend on how thick your pencil mark might be....
I have no idea the basis for "50" but I'd guess it was just a nice round number, and probably chosen by something such as "over the horizon at 1,000 Ft AGL"....

BUT, like others have said....49.8 is definitely NOT greater than 50
Personally I'd exceeded it my some margin to the best ability of whatever tools I had.
Look at it this way.... let's say you pick a different airport pair and your tool is giving you 50.0 miles. How do you know that the DPE might use a different tool that might call it 49.9 miles.

2) I agree with Mongoose....
out of KLZU...why not go EAST and away from the busy airspace? especially for your first. Huge number of options out that way!

3) Don't most flight schools have canned routes that they either suggest or tell their students to plan and fly for their solo x-countries? What is your instructor telling you? Actually kinda good in a way they are letting you propose your own based only on the requirements...but safe bet your CFI will review and approve or not. Suggest you practice good aeronautical decision making and plan less busy routes, routes with emergency landing options that don't include skyscrapers and the busiest airport in the world, etc... just food for thought

 

[frfly172]

I would always go over and not worry about rounding out the numbers. Flying is supposed to be fun so enjoy.

 

[FORANE]

We did greater than 50 miles with 4 total airports. Our DPE refused to accept the flight stating it needed to be 3 airports.

 

[Hang 4]

I would go away from Atlanta vs towards for a first XC. There's a ton of places to the north and east that would be good. Getting involved in the PDK/ATL buzz saw is a bad idea for a first solo. A lot going on there over the radio and in the air.

 

[kaiser]

If there's doubt, there is no doubt. Go over 50...

 

[Hang 4]

To the OP's original question, my guess would be that 50 miles puts you far enough away that you can't see a landmark from the beginning of the flight. Meaning you have to actually navigate to get to the airport(s) on the route. RYY - PYP was a popular solo XC route leg @50.7 NM. You couldn't see PYP until you were about 10NM away and RYY landmarks were unseeable coming back. You could see the stacks near Cartersville and get back that way, but still required actual navigation.

 

[Lance F]

For anyone curious about my actual flight plan:

My home field is KLZU, so planning on a landing at KCZL with a view of the mountains, or KCEU with a view of the lakes, or KCCO with a view of metro Atlanta and overflig

My home field is KLZU, so planning on a landing at KCZL with a view of the mountains, or KCEU with a view of the lakes, or KCCO with a view of metro Atlanta and overflight over Hartsfield Jackson (after my Bravo endo, of course).

Careful. Absolutely positively no student pilots in ATL Bravo airspace. See Part 91 Appendix D section 4.

 

[geezer]

My instructor suggested about 100 NM, to identify as an over achiever. DPE's like that, and expect that you are well prepared. I had 3 cross countries, all over 100 NM each way when I went for the check ride. That is 6 cross county legs over 100 NM.

Longer cross countries give more time to get relaxed and enjoy the trip. This assumes that you are good enough at navigation that you have no fear of getting lost. The return leg of the second trip made a stop at the airport where the check ride was planned to be, to familiarize myself with the details of customary practices.

Checked my Number 1 log book.
First CC, 2 hours, 30 minutes. 2 states, MD & VA.
Second CC, 3 hours, 30 minutes. 2 states, MD & DE.
Third CC, 3 hours and 10 minutes. 2 states, MD & VA.

Cessna 150, good engine, cruised at 90 Knots, so the total distance traveled for those 3 flights was abut 800 NM. My DPE had no reason to question my distances, or anything else in my log, it was all beyond the letter of the regulations.

I was paying Tachometer time, so cruised at a lower, more economical throttle setting. Most of the airports did not have a VOR near them, the nav was dead reckoning. The radio would only nav, or comm, not both at once, so I had the proper frequency for the destination airport, to get early information on the pattern activity.

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

We did greater than 50 miles with 4 total airports. Our DPE refused to accept the flight stating it needed to be 3 airports.

I think he is correct. 61.109 clearly says "with full stop landings at three points..."

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

Don't most flight schools have canned routes that they either suggest or tell their students to plan and fly for their solo x-countries?

For our school, yes and no. The first solo XC is always to the same airport 76 miles away, but the route is parallel to a four-lane highway, so there is no chance of getting lost, except the airport itself is not easy to spot in an industrial park. The destination is a Class D, which our students don't get a lot of here, so that's a plus. And there is a VOR station a few miles from that airport, which helps if someone is in our C-150 with only VOR for navigation (though almost everyone has ForeFlight).

The long cross-country is the student's choice. Some are very creative.

 

[dmspilot]

I think he is correct. 61.109 clearly says "with full stop landings at three points..."

I guess the flight has to be exactly 150 miles too.

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

I guess the flight has to be exactly 150 miles too.

Now there's a challenge! An attorney might say yes.

 

[ktup-flyer]

I guess the flight has to be exactly 150 miles too.

My IR XC was TUP-OSH-chicago lakefront tour-EVV-MKL-TUP. 1183nm. Guess I should go back and redo it

 

[MauleSkinner]

Now there's a challenge! An attorney might say yes.

An attorney would say whatever you paid him to say.

 

[RussR]

We did greater than 50 miles with 4 total airports. Our DPE refused to accept the flight stating it needed to be 3 airports.

I think he is correct. 61.109 clearly says "with full stop landings at three points..."

A DPE who turns down an applicant because he or she actually exceeded the requirement, is clearly not applying the spirit of the regulations, in favor of a literal interpretation, and would not be receiving my repeat business.

There's a similar literal reading available in the instrument rating training requirements. The IFR XC requires "(B) An instrument approach at each airport;". This means that if your home airport has no instrument approaches, you cannot count a flight that includes that airport. Doesn't matter if you do 57 approaches at other airports that day, if you don't do approaches at EACH airport, it doesn't count. This is pretty clearly (at least in my mind) not what the writers of this regulation intended, but is the literal meaning of the words. Yes, you can do clever logbook legerdemain, like a repositioning leg, but should that really be necessary? The experience gained is exactly the same.

 

[nauga]

I think he is correct. 61.109 clearly says "with full stop landings at three points..."

I once did a cross country with landings at four points that did not include landings at three points.

Nauga,
who knows five is right out

 

[MauleSkinner]

I once did a cross country with landings at four points that did not include landings at three points.

Nauga,
who knows five is right out

but were they three point landings?

 

[Clip4]

The DPE will just round up the 49.5 NM to 50.1 NM, your 4.8 hours of solo XC to 5 hours of solo XC, your 2.9 hours of night training to 3, and your 8 night landings to 10 because close is good enough. LOL.

You can’t do this because counting a 49.5 nm XC as your total XC time on the IACRA application is a false representation. Nor can your CFI sign the application.

 

[MauleSkinner]

You can’t do this because counting a 49.5 nm XC as your total XC time on the IACRA application is a false statement and a criminal offense.

But the FAA required me to log two 45-minute flights as 1.6 hours.

 

[JackFliesGA]

Careful. Absolutely positively no student pilots in ATL Bravo airspace. See Part 91 Appendix D section 4.

Thanks for this! I clearly haven't talked to my CFI about this.

One of the routes I planned as an exercise for a cross-country was a sightseeing tour with an VFR flight-following transit over Atlanta Hartsfield. Definitely saving that for after the PPL.

This is definitely good to know for my trips to San Francisco and LA too.

 

[Lon Stratton]

Even 50 is not <50.....

 

[JackFliesGA]

To the OP's original question, my guess would be that 50 miles puts you far enough away that you can't see a landmark from the beginning of the flight. Meaning you have to actually navigate to get to the airport(s) on the route. RYY - PYP was a popular solo XC route leg @50.7 NM. You couldn't see PYP until you were about 10NM away and RYY landmarks were unseeable coming back. You could see the stacks near Cartersville and get back that way, but still required actual navigation.

@Hang 4 thanks for this bit of history. That seems to be the spirit of the regs: not having common navigation landmarks between them.

1) I assume that you ... are probably just doing a thought exercise.....
keep in mind that the requirement was set long before we had the internet and computer charting, and these measurements would be made using an old fashioned paper chart and plotter. ...
Look at it this way.... let's say you pick a different airport pair and your tool is giving you 50.0 miles. How do you know that the DPE might use a different tool that might call it 49.9 miles.

2) I agree with Mongoose....
out of KLZU...why not go EAST and away from the busy airspace? especially for your first. Huge number of options out that way!

3) Don't most flight schools have canned routes that they either suggest or tell their students to plan and fly for their solo x-countries? What is your instructor telling you? Actually kinda good in a way they are letting you propose your own based only on the requirements...

@Brad W hehe yup it was thought exercise, though as @RyanShort1 pointed out, its good to know catch yourself trying to skirt the minimums to save money or time. Akin to get-there-itis... get-it-done-itis.

I've got two options to present to my CFI on Thursday. I'm sure they have a canned route, but he likes to tap into my curiosity You're right about all of my options though!

My Farms & Lakes to the South+East plan is KLZU KGVL KAHN KMLJ the the 60NM from KLZU). Lots of good natural features and structures to use for navigation, including the Road Atlanta racetrack, Lake Oconee/Sinclair, and Stone Mountain. Direct distance between the fields is a 160NM, so I'm at least 10% over requirements.

My Lakes & Mountains plan to the North + West is KLZU KRYY KCZL JIVIM KDZJ KGVL KLZU. Lets me see Lake Allatoona, Blue Ridge Mountains, Lake Lanier. Lots of mountain tops, passes, highways, lakes to use for navigation. 170NM direct between the fields, and I have three options for landings >50NM from the home airfield.

I had a plan to go around Metro Atlanta with an overflight of KATL but as @Lance F keenly pointed out, no student pilots in the Atlanta Class B. I'd have to follow VFR fly routes and that's way less fun

My instructor suggested about 100 NM, to identify as an over achiever. DPE's like that, and expect that you are well prepared. I had 3 cross countries, all over 100 NM each way when I went for the check ride. That is 6 cross county legs over 100 NM.

That's awesome @geezer! I like this idea of going above and beyond. This kind of ultra professionalism helps in all areas of life, not just to prove our preparedness to a DPE.

 

[Tantalum]

Didn't read whole thread!

 

[JackFliesGA]

Didn't read whole thread!

TL;DR is have a professional attitude and go above and beyond. Splitting hairs about 0.2NM is not what a DPE wants to do. They want to see you well beyond compliant of regulations.

oh hehe, I just saw the email with your original reply. lol.