DPE Complaint

A

Anonymous

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I had an incident years ago where a DPE was engaging in unprofessional conduct. Constant cell phone use during my instrument checkride, checking the sports scores, news, texting, highly distracting. I ended up failing said instrument checkride (I believe due to the distraction of said DPE). I filed a complaint with FSDO against said DPE. The FSDO responded and said that while DPE was admonished for his unprofessional conduct, I was responsible as PIC for discontinuing checkride if I felt he was distracting.

Years later when I pull my full airmen certification file, the report from said incident with DPE comes back. I am concerned about a potential employer also receiving a copy of this incident report, and now having to disclose an “incident” on a job application. The incident was really the DPEs fault not mine.

Is there a method for getting this report removed from my FAA file so it doesn’t return when the full file is requested?
 
Straight from the test standards:

Use of Distractions During Practical Tests Introduction: Numerous studies indicate that many accidents have occurred when the pilot has been distracted during critical phases of flight. To evaluate the pilot’s ability to utilize proper control technique while dividing attention both inside and/or outside the cockpit, the examiner shall cause a realistic distraction during the flight portion of the practical test to evaluate the applicant’s ability to divide attention while maintaining safe flight.
 
flyingron said:
Straight from the test standards:

Use of Distractions During Practical Tests Introduction: Numerous studies indicate that many accidents have occurred when the pilot has been distracted during critical phases of flight. To evaluate the pilot’s ability to utilize proper control technique while dividing attention both inside and/or outside the cockpit, the examiner shall cause a realistic distraction during the flight portion of the practical test to evaluate the applicant’s ability to divide attention while maintaining safe flight.
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This was clearly beyond the use of a distraction as a teaching tool. He was using cell phone during oral exam, taxi out, takeoff, and during flight. Beyond more than reasonable.
 
Anonymous said:
This was clearly beyond the use of a distraction as a teaching tool. He was using cell phone during oral exam, taxi out, takeoff, and during flight. Beyond more than reasonable.
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So as PIC, telling him to put it away would both eliminate the distraction and prevent you from acting as PIC with harmful portable electronic devices being used.
 
Anonymous said:
This was clearly beyond the use of a distraction as a teaching tool. He was using cell phone during oral exam, taxi out, takeoff, and during flight. Beyond more than reasonable.
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Says you. Feds disagreed. Are employers going to take your side or the feds?

Employers will be looking for that "humble taking ownership/responsibility of the situation" from you, and potentially refusing your services due to its absence, which you may continue to blame on the DPE. Perhaps start a "this DPE sux" blog in the downtime this situation affords you while not flying.
 
schmookeeg said:
Says you. Feds disagreed. Are employers going to take your side or the feds?

Employers will be looking for that "humble taking ownership/responsibility of the situation" from you, and potentially refusing your services due to its absence, which you may continue to blame on the DPE. Perhaps start a "this DPE sux" blog in the downtime this situation affords you while not flying.
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Before assuming things there are a few pieces to this:

1. The DPE admitted to me later he was out of life and apologized.
2. The FSDO admitted to me that he was out of line, and said they would be re-examining the DPE.
3. I know better than to blame the DPE in an interview, and would never do so.
 
MauleSkinner said:
So as PIC, telling him to put it away would both eliminate the distraction and prevent you from acting as PIC with harmful portable electronic devices being used.
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Yeah, cell, phones... I have had to tell my instructor on a BFR to put his away.
 
What happens if a passenger gets on their cell phone while you're flying an approach? You just gonna die and that's ok?

This is your failure. Stop blaming someone else.

I'd adjust this attitude before you have to explain this "incident" to an employer, cuz they are likely to react just like we are reacting.
 
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You were PIC, tell the DPE to stop distracting you. I had a similar thing happen to me, DPE kept jabbering, I told him I was trying to fly an airplane and pass a check ride here. He said sorry and that was it, he only spoke when needed after that.
 
Anonymous said:
Before assuming things there are a few pieces to this:

1. The DPE admitted to me later he was out of life and apologized.
2. The FSDO admitted to me that he was out of line, and said they would be re-examining the DPE.
3. I know better than to blame the DPE in an interview, and would never do so.
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So why would it be a problem if a potential employer knew about it?
 
Anonymous said:
This was clearly beyond the use of a distraction as a teaching tool. He was using cell phone during oral exam, taxi out, takeoff, and during flight. Beyond more than reasonable.
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Teaching tool? On a check ride? The examiner was not there to teach you.
 
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You were unable to focus on flying while distracted.

You were unable to exercise good PIC ADM by using your PIC authority to tell him to knock it off.

You failed your check ride because you failed in those two aspects of flying as well as whatever additional failures the above failures caused.

What are you going to do when your fellow pilot in the cockpit has distracting behaviors?

What are you going to do when a passenger is acting up?

There are far more distractions for the modern professional pilot to deal with than ever before. It is not the time or job for the easily distracted or weak minded.
 
I'm going to jump on the bandwagon to emphasize that even years after this event, you haven't learned that it was your responsibility to tell the DPE to knock it off. If you have anyone to blame, it is your CFI for not forcefully teaching you how to knock out distractions. My CFI-I was a master of creating distractions in the cockpit. If I didn't understand before, his methods really taught me how to control the cockpit environment.

Try flying in actual for a couple hours with a couple young kids and your wife in the plane. That is what Pilot-Isolate switches were invented for.
 
flyingron said:
Straight from the test standards:

Use of Distractions During Practical Tests Introduction: Numerous studies indicate that many accidents have occurred when the pilot has been distracted during critical phases of flight. To evaluate the pilot’s ability to utilize proper control technique while dividing attention both inside and/or outside the cockpit, the examiner shall cause a realistic distraction during the flight portion of the practical test to evaluate the applicant’s ability to divide attention while maintaining safe flight.
Click to expand...
My instructor for my instrument used about ~7 miles out from a IF would ask me a question and get me talking. He was good at it. Would get me talking about something that I would apparently want to be talking about… would distract me and I’d blow through that fix. Or be way too high. Got me often until I really started to learn to get ahead and stay ahead and insist on being sterile during those critical phases, screw up a hold.

The DPE could have crapped his pants in the plane and I wouldn’t have batted an eye by the time my instructor got done with me. When we fly he still does it.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
I'm going to jump on the bandwagon to emphasize that even years after this event, you haven't learned that it was your responsibility to tell the DPE to knock it off. If you have anyone to blame, it is your CFI for not forcefully teaching you how to knock out distractions. My CFI-I was a master of creating distractions in the cockpit. If I didn't understand before, his methods really taught me how to control the cockpit environment.

Try flying in actual for a couple hours with a couple young kids and your wife in the plane. That is what Pilot-Isolate switches were invented for.
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To be crystal clear to everyone jumping onto the bandwagon here: I was 19 at the time of said incident. I was young and stupid and made a lot of mistakes along the way. Now nearly a decade later, I do take ownership over this and do not blame the DPE for it. Life has a way of teaching you the errors of your youthful ways. I read the book Extreme Ownership a few years ago, and it completely changed my life.
 
Anonymous said:
To be crystal clear to everyone jumping onto the bandwagon here: I was 19 at the time of said incident. I was young and stupid and made a lot of mistakes along the way. Now nearly a decade later, I do take ownership over this and do not blame the DPE for it. Life has a way of teaching you the errors of your youthful ways. I read the book Extreme Ownership a few years ago, and it completely changed my life.
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No, you’re not taking ownership over this, and yes, you are blaming the DPE. There is absolutely no other way to interpret these statements…
Anonymous said:
I ended up failing said instrument checkride (I believe due to the distraction of said DPE).
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Anonymous said:
The incident was really the DPEs fault not mine.
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Anonymous said:
Beyond more than reasonable.
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Anonymous said:
1. The DPE admitted to me later he was out of life and apologized.
2. The FSDO admitted to me that he was out of line,
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And now you’re trying to figure out how to hide it from potential employers rather than demonstrate how a book completely changed your life.
 
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Anonymous said:
To be crystal clear to everyone jumping onto the bandwagon here: I was 19 at the time of said incident. I was young and stupid and made a lot of mistakes along the way. Now nearly a decade later, I do take ownership over this and do not blame the DPE for it. Life has a way of teaching you the errors of your youthful ways. I read the book Extreme Ownership a few years ago, and it completely changed my life.
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You can't remove a notice of disapproval if it was rightfully issued. Period. You had your reasons, which may have seemed legitimate to you at the time, but it doesn't matter. It sounds like your instructor may not have fully prepared you for the role of PIC. Did your instructor endorse your decision to file a complaint as well?

Either way, learn and move on. You aren't rhe first pilot to bust a checkride.
 
Brad Z said:
You can't remove a notice of disapproval if it was rightfully issued. Period. You had your reasons, which may have seemed legitimate to you at the time, but it doesn't matter. It sounds like your instructor may not have fully prepared you for the role of PIC. Did your instructor endorse your decision to file a complaint as well?

Either way, learn and move on. You aren't rhe first pilot to bust a checkride.
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Two separate issues here:

I don’t think that the notice of disapproval should be removed. It is 100% valid and should remain in my file.

I don’t think that a complaint against a DPE that was largely substantiated belongs in my file. What’s the point of being able to file a valid complaint, if the filing of the complaint could yield harm?
 
I don’t think one checkride bust is going to keep anybody from marching the ATP ladder. If it’s one of a few that has a half decent explanation then that’s a different story.
if asked in an interview you could really own it. Easily can say “well I failed because I got distracted in the cockpit. I learned a lot that day about sterile cockpit and on my next ride I didn’t fall for any of those distractions during critical phases a flight. It has stuck with me throughout all my training since then to identify distractions early and avoid them.”
Showing that you Overcame a failure is a great way to show a strength
 
Anonymous said:
I had an incident years ago where a DPE was engaging in unprofessional conduct. Constant cell phone use during my instrument checkride, checking the sports scores, news, texting, highly distracting. I ended up failing said instrument checkride (I believe due to the distraction of said DPE). I filed a complaint with FSDO against said DPE. The FSDO responded and said that while DPE was admonished for his unprofessional conduct, I was responsible as PIC for discontinuing checkride if I felt he was distracting.

Years later when I pull my full airmen certification file, the report from said incident with DPE comes back. I am concerned about a potential employer also receiving a copy of this incident report, and now having to disclose an “incident” on a job application. The incident was really the DPEs fault not mine.

Is there a method for getting this report removed from my FAA file so it doesn’t return when the full file is requested?
Click to expand...

Which elements of the checkride did you fail?
 
Anonymous said:
...Now nearly a decade later, I do take ownership over this and do not blame the DPE for it....
Click to expand...

Anonymous said:
...(I believe due to the distraction of said DPE)...
The incident was really the DPEs fault not mine....
Click to expand...

hypocrisy

  1. the practice of professing standards, beliefs, etc, contrary to one's real character or actual behaviour, esp. the pretence of virtue and piety
 
So then, part of a CFIs job is to prep the student (at least when close to checkride-time) for dealing with distractions by a passenger?
And, being a very distracting passenger is part of a DPEs job? Does the ACS include that?

Wish my instructor had prepped me more for that - might have helped pass on the 1st try. In my limited experience, the first DPE was far more distracting than any passenger I've had since, or than my instructor ever was.
 
40YearDream said:
So then, part of a CFIs job is to prep the student (at least when close to checkride-time) for dealing with distractions by a passenger?
And, being a very distracting passenger is part of a DPEs job? Does the ACS include that?

Wish my instructor had prepped me more for that - might have helped pass on the 1st try. In my limited experience, the first DPE was far more distracting than any passenger I've had since, or than my instructor ever was.
Click to expand...

Both my instructors were very good at teaching me to ignore distractions during critical phases of flight. I don't know if it's in the teaching standards, per se, as I am not a CFI or a DPE, but I think it's an excellent thing to teach a student, and I am a much better pilot for it. Being able to tune out anything not related to the stage of flight you're in at the moment is a very useful skill to have, as is being able to tell your pax, instructor, or DPE that they need to stop talking or doing what they're doing so you can focus. Even if it's not in the ACS as something a DPE or CFI has to do, in the real world, your pax could range from quiet and easygoing to distracting as heck. They might sit and admire the view out the window, but they could also ask questions, and touch things, and move around, and be dramatic. If you can't focus and fly when your pax are doing that, you're not safe in the air, at least not with that kind of pax. I went into my checkride with the viewpoint of "the DPE is a pax right up until we're about to become a statistic". Which means I'm the pilot in command, and I need to act like it. It helped, a lot, because that gave me permission to ignore that he was sitting there. :D But being able to do that was definitely trained into me by my instructors!

To the OP: I doubt it would matter much, as long as you are polite and honest if they ask about it. And as long as you truly do take responsibility for failing the checkride (because when it comes down to it, whether or not you busted any maneuvers, etc. doesn't matter - you did fail, as PIC duties include telling the pax to stop doing whatever is distracting you from flying), I think it would be a non-issue for you. Hey, if nothing else, you can use it as an example for that favorite question of interviewers - tell me about a time you messed up and how you learned from it. :)
 
Anonymous said:
I don’t think that a complaint against a DPE that was largely substantiated belongs in my file. What’s the point of being able to file a valid complaint, if the filing of the complaint could yield harm?
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That's a horse of a different color. And i don't see why filing a valid and substantiated complaint would hurt you. If it comes up, I'd explain that while you believe the complaint was valid, and the FSDO agreed, that of you had it to do over today, you wouldn't file the complaint. And explain why.
 
My primary instructor used to tell me about a naked lady sunbathing on his side on short final to a particular airport. He did it when I was near my check ride, so I stomped on the left rudder and banked to right while saying where? That made him jump as I laughed. I never did figure out if he was lying.
 
Half Fast said:
Trust me - it’s much easier to tell a DPE or a CFI to stop talking than it is to tell your wife to stop. At least the DPE won’t be PO’d with me for the next few days. Severe distractions are a very valuable part of training.
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Hand up, works every time for me.
 
40YearDream said:
So then, part of a CFIs job is to prep the student (at least when close to checkride-time) for dealing with distractions by a passenger?
And, being a very distracting passenger is part of a DPEs job? Does the ACS include that?

Wish my instructor had prepped me more for that - might have helped pass on the 1st try. In my limited experience, the first DPE was far more distracting than any passenger I've had since, or than my instructor ever was.
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It is in the ACS for preflight and every stage of flight. Search the ACS for “distractions” and you’ll see it mentioned 49 times.

49 times!

From the ACS:

Use of Distractions
Numerous studies indicate that many accidents have occurred when the pilot has been distracted during critical phases of flight. The evaluator should incorporate realistic distractions during the flight portion of the practical test to evaluate the pilot’s situational awareness and ability to utilize proper control technique while dividing attention both inside and outside the cockpit.

Any instructor who is not preparing your for handling distractions—and any DPE who is not testing an applicants ability to deal with distractions—is not doing their job.

Also, read the ACS, folks.
 
in my private check ride, the DPE kept asking me to look at a traffic that was at my 6 going away from me. it was no factor, the controllers said it was no factor, ADSB said it was no factor, and I had visually located him when he passed under me. the DPE kept saying look at the plane, it looks awesome, what if he turns and comes at us bla bla bla. I was fairly certain that if I turned around to find something at my six, first, i wont see it and second the DPE would put me in unusual attitude. i told him its no factor, he kept blabbering. i finally told him, why dont you keep an eye out of that traffic while i fly. he stopped.

its his job to distract you
 
It seems the key take-away here is that I should have told the DPE to "hold the whiney comments and complaints until we got on the ground - I'm the PIC". Didn't realize (at that time) I could and should do that, even as a lowly student pilot testing for PP. That's something my instructor could have helped prepare me better for.
 
Half Fast said:
Trust me - it’s much easier to tell a DPE or a CFI to stop talking than it is to tell your wife to stop. At least the DPE won’t be PO’d with me for the next few days. Severe distractions are a very valuable part of training.
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Yelling “OMG we’re gonna die!” really loud and then getting real quiet works for me.
 
40YearDream said:
It seems the key take-away here is that I should have told the DPE to "hold the whiney comments and complaints until we got on the ground - I'm the PIC". Didn't realize (at that time) I could and should do that, even as a lowly student pilot testing for PP. That's something my instructor could have helped prepare me better for.
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Definitely. Some DPEs are more predictable than others in their distraction techniques, but a good DPE will often create distractions that are very realistic and representative of something you might encounter out in your own with passengers.
 
40YearDream said:
So then, part of a CFIs job is to prep the student (at least when close to checkride-time) for dealing with distractions by a passenger?
And, being a very distracting passenger is part of a DPEs job? Does the ACS include that?

Wish my instructor had prepped me more for that - might have helped pass on the 1st try. In my limited experience, the first DPE was far more distracting than any passenger I've had since, or than my instructor ever was.
Click to expand...

Hopefully your CFI for the private was providing some realistic distractions before signing you off for solo and continuing throughout your training.

The ACS calls for realistic distractions. I have heard of a lot of unrealistic distractions used, but the annoying passenger, especially on a commercial test, is fair game.
 
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