Downwind - Tailwind Landings

Daleandee

Daleandee

Final Approach
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Dale Andee
Is this something your instructor had you to do?

I know we always takeoff and land into the wind but there are times when that just isn't happening.

I've made a few landings with the wind on my tail when they were light. I wonder what bits of wisdom and techniques can be gleaned from the vast cauldron of stewed knowledge available here on POA.

Have you ever practiced downwind landings?

Tales and cautions welcomed!
 
I always try to do a downwind approach to almost touchdown and then a go around with students. Mostly what I want to demonstrate is how much the tailwind affects the climb angle on departure. I am aware of at least once accident cause by a go around from a downwind landing where the plane couldn't outclimb the terrain. I also like how it also demonstrate how easy it is to get slow and even possibly uncoordinated due to the low altitude turning picture below pivotal altitude. But I usually don't have to make an effort to demonstrate the approach as our airport often gets a low level inversion (100 to 200ft) where it is pretty common to have a 10kt tailwind in the approach and a 3kt headwind on the runway.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Daleandee said:
Is this something your instructor had you to do?

I know we always takeoff and land into the wind but there are times when that just isn't happening.

I've made a few landings with the wind on my tail when they were light. I wonder what bits of wisdom and techniques can be gleaned from the vast cauldron of stewed knowledge available here on POA.

Have you ever practiced downwind landings?

Tales and cautions welcomed!
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Beware of runway length. Beware of quartering tailwinds. Review those aileron and elevator charts about how they should be when taxiing in relationship to the wind and get there on the rollout. I was raised on tailwind landings. Airport I did my PPL at had procedures that had us doing tailwind landings a lot. Long runway, that wasn't an issue, but I had a lot of practice with some 'squirrelyness."
 
The 2000 foot strip near me has 100 feet difference between runway ends.
So it’s land uphill and takeoff downhill . VSI often shows descent at liftoff.
It’s always a “possible landing” but an early decision on a go-around is needed.
 
Yes, we have some long runways around here. As part of my primary training we landed a bunch of times with about a 10 knot tail wind on an 11,000 foot runway. Mainly to understand the sensations of an approach like that, which is pretty striking in a trainer landing 20 knots faster than you are used to.
 
Probably the only time I ever landed with any significant tailwind was on my multi training. We were doing a GPS approach to one runway, circle to land the opposite direction, which turned into a simulated single-engine approach (multi-training, go figure). The option presented was land with a 10 kt tailwind, or attempt a CTL at "minimums" while single engine. Give the nearly mile and a half long runway ahead of me, I opted for the straight in. Instructor (or maybe it was the examiner) thought it was a good choice.
 
Never did it with an instructor. I'll do it if the runway is long and where I want to be is on the other side.
 
Down HILL can be more exciting than downwind.
 
I did it once or twice while training when I was up solo practicing landings. The wind kept changing but since I had 3500' of runway and it was only 5ish kts, it wasn't bad at all. Never had an instructor do it, though. You have to be very cognizant about exactly where you are, but otherwise, with a light one, really all that changes is control position after landing and a longer roll out.
 
I do it with students so they can see the difference in ground roll. Last one was 20 kt tail wind on 11k foot runway. We ate up almost 4k feet of the runway before stopping.
 
PaulS said:
Yes, we have some long runways around here. As part of my primary training we landed a bunch of times with about a 10 knot tail wind on an 11,000 foot runway. Mainly to understand the sensations of an approach like that, which is pretty striking in a trainer landing 20 knots faster than you are used to.
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Was it at Pease? I believe that's where we would go to practice some 'unusual' landing events, to take advantage of their huge runway
 
Tantalum said:
Was it at Pease? I believe that's where we would go to practice some 'unusual' landing events, to take advantage of their huge runway
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Yes, and Manchester, before it became a Logan alternate. Pease is great, you can do a couple touch and goes in a row, plus super wide.
 
It’s something we should be familiar with…

One way strips happen… or once I got a couple miles from airport and the plane needed to be on the ground I chose a tailwind landing vs staying airborne longer to lumber around a pattern.
 
On a downwind landing you might notice the airplane drifting as you're turning final. It appears that the airplane is slipping even though the ball is centered. The danger comes when the pilot adds rudder to counter the apparent slip, and ends up skidding in the worst possible place to do so. Skids on base-to-final are a classic stall/spin waiting to happen.

https://tc.canada.ca/en/aviation/pu...-tp-975#illusions-created-by-drift-low-flying
 
I landed at Cedar Key recently (short runway) and wondered why I used so much more runway than usual, at the end I saw the sock and realized why. Used the METAR instead of looking at the sock.... I think that was my flight with @RyanB
 
As a private student we did downwind take off and landings.

I did the same with my students.
 
Long time ago, I had a severe need to get to a restroom and in my clouded judgement, landed on the reciprical runway to what the winds should have dictated at the uncontrolled (no traffic) field. Just a brain fart on my part. I realized the error on short final when the landscape was scooting by. AWOS was calling it as a 10 knot quartering tailwind, gusting to 17. It really wasn't a problem other than rolling 500' more than normal. This was in the RV-6.
 
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My first real tailwind landing was on accident, and scared the bejezus out of me. I had about 100 hrs and was beginning to feel pretty competent in the club's 172. I was landing at a narrow 2200' paved strip adjacent to a fairground. inbound, I had a great wind indication on the ridge-line a little ways north and a couple of hundred feet above the airport (first mistake). I set up for what I thought would be a landing into the wind, and all was well, up the the point that I rounded out and pulled the last little bit of power off. Something didn't feel quite right, but I'd succesfully rounded out in ground effect right about as close to the numbers as I'd dared. So, I was sure I had plenty of room to get her on the ground and stopped (2nd mistake). After a couple of crow-hops, it suddenly dawned on me that my ground speed seemed to be a little fast. No problem though, I still had more than half the distance of the runway to get it all under control. More crow hops and with the throttle already closed, I was quickly running out of room and ideas. I did finally push the throttle open and nurse the thing into the air. But, it just did not seem to want to climb. I watched horrified as I slowly passed the upwind end of the runway, barely clearing the fence, over traffic and very slowly climbing out over the fairgrounds. At about 200' agl, I passed over a horse and rider frozen in the middle of one the show rings, staring up at me. I didn't have time to look and see if the horse spooked. But, I'm sure that rider was calling me some pretty not-nice names. I finally managed to safely accelerate and climb to a safer altitude. But, I'll never forget the sight out that wind screen as I barely cleared the fence and the cars on the other side.

The lesson was #1 Don't trust wind indications on ridge lines well above field altitude. And, #2 when it doesn't feel right don't wait to see if it gets better, go around.
 
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I had a situation that happened to me around 10 years ago flying into St Marys Georgia before that airport was shutdown. They did not have AWOS there and their wind sock was notorious for sticking sometimes. I used the weather info from Brunswick/St Simons as I was approaching St Marys to decide which runway to use. Instead of the quartering headwind I was expecting, it turned out to be a quartering tailwind for my runway. I managed to get the plane down and stopped by the end of the runway but I used all of the runway and a lot of brakes. Since then I have developed a habit of comparing my GPS ground speed to my indicated air speed. On final I expect to see GPS ground speed slower than indicated air speed to ensure I am indeed making a headwind landing. Also the sensations of being pushed down final is vivid in my memory now. If this ever happens again, I’ll climb, access the situation and set up for landing on the appropriate runway instead of trying to force it in like I did at St Marys. I couldn’t believe that the wind could be that different just 25-30 miles down the coast, but it was!
 
MickYoumans said:
I couldn’t believe that the wind could be that different just 25-30 miles down the coast, but it was!
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Heck, I’ve seen different wind directions at opposite ends of the same runway!

At Apopka (X04), several times I saw the windsocks at each end of the runway pointing at each other. It’s a fun place to land LSAs.
 
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If traffic and runway length allow, I typically toward the FBO and takeoff away from it unless the tailwind component exceeds 10 knots.
 
I've never practiced it intentionally. Learned tailwheel first, and landing with less control authority in a tailwheel always seemed like a dumb plan....and difficult to explain if I screwed it up. Tricycle gear, I've gone along with prevailing traffic, or made mistakes up to around 10 knots, more or less. That's always with longer runways, and it's just a longer landing. With short runways, and tailwheel, people tend to pay closer attention to the windsock, for obvious reasons.

Practicing crosswind landings makes sense, and I've done that. I don't see much benefit to practicing downwind. Maybe I'm missing something.
 
Albany Tom said:
I don't see much benefit to practicing downwind. Maybe I'm missing something.
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Not sure I recommend a tailwheel landing as regular practice but going through the experience with a light tailwind on a long and wide runway with no obstacles can show you what you are missing. I've made a few and the feel of the airplane and the visual illusions when close to the ground, as Dan pointed out in post # 17, can be eye opening.

Where I'm based the winter sun shining down the runway can make it extremely difficult to see the surface in the evening. Another nearby grass field has a standing policy that during this time of the year, unless the winds prevent it, all incoming traffic during the evening should land with the sun behind them. I've been in and out of there a bunch and I understand the reason for their request.

I'm flying a tailwheel airplane and I really try to always takeoff & land into the wind. But sometimes it seems safer to take a small tail wind component than the difficulty of landing on a runway where it's not only difficult to see the surface but also to watch for any one on or approaching from the other direction.
 
As the speeds of the plane you are flying increase, a corresponding decrease in wind speed significance occurs.
 
Daleandee said:
Is this something your instructor had you to do?

...

Tales and cautions welcomed!
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You can throw out the old thumb rule of needing to land in a full stall within the first one-third of the runway— one third the way down a really short runway would be too late. Landing sooner with the flatter approach angle could put you in the treetops, so a tailwind squeezes the thumb rule from both ends.

Really good thread, btw. Good info from the CFIs above too. ;)
 
Albany Tom said:
Learned tailwheel first, and landing with less control authority in a tailwheel always seemed like a dumb plan....
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Please explain why you’d have less control authority in a downwind landing if approaching and landing at the same IAS*.

*I can see one possible explanation, but not sure it’s what you’re referencing.
 
If you were to flip a quarter in the air during a tailwind landing, which direction would it go??
 
FastEddieB said:
Please explain why you’d have less control authority in a downwind landing if approaching and landing at the same IAS*.

*I can see one possible explanation, but not sure it’s what you’re referencing.
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In the air? Same. As soon as the wheels touch down? Three point, you've got less airflow over the rudder, and you don't have a heck of a lot anyway, depending on the plane. But the real concern would be wheel landing. I can't see anything good about a downwind wheel landing. All of that might sound silly, but the problem points around directional control, to me, in tailwheel are right around the moment the wheels touch. It doesn't last very long, but the entertainment factor can make up for the lack of actual time.
 
Albany Tom said:
I don't see much benefit to practicing downwind. Maybe I'm missing something.
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It's just to give you options, and to make sure you've experienced it so that if you HAVE to do it, you're aware of the visual illusions and such.

I don't do primary training any more, but I do ask on a Flight Review if the pilot has ever done a tailwind landing - surprisingly, the answer is usually "no". And then typically they act as if it's a forbidden maneuver that will result in an instant, fiery death.

There are very much such things as one-way runways where due to terrain, you will almost always always take off one way and land the other, regardless of wind. And we're not talking bush flying, grass strips here either - there are lots of good-sized paved runways where that's a consideration too.

And then there's situations like happened to me a couple years back. Was flying a 421 into Norman, OK (OUN). Four runway ends, but one pair (18/36) was closed for maintenance, leaving only 3/21. Weather was IMC, and wind was 150 at 10, which favors runway 21, but there's no instrument approach to 21 (presumably because of Tinker AFB). And the ceiling was below circling minimums. So, the choice was either land on 3 with a tailwind, or go somewhere else. Well, that tailwind and runway length was well within the capabilities of the plane, so seeing no compelling reason to go somewhere else, I landed with a tailwind.
 
Albany Tom said:
In the air? Same. As soon as the wheels touch down? Three point, you've got less airflow over the rudder, and you don't have a heck of a lot anyway, depending on the plane. But the real concern would be wheel landing. I can't see anything good about a downwind wheel landing. All of that might sound silly, but the problem points around directional control, to me, in tailwheel are right around the moment the wheels touch. It doesn't last very long, but the entertainment factor can make up for the lack of actual time.
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I’ve never seen much of an entertainment factor, whether wheel landing or 3-point.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I’ve never seen much of an entertainment factor, whether wheel landing or 3-point.
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Entertainment, focus, I'm not sure what you call it. It's the balance of the things that happen as the wing settles down and the wheels touch down, sometimes one right after the other. A little bit of gust makes it kind of fun...and I do mean that in a good way. I love landing in a little bit of wind. But a little bit of tailwind pushes it past fun for me. Maybe I'm a bit of a baby with that.

RussR said:
It's just to give you options, and to make sure you've experienced it so that if you HAVE to do it, you're aware of the visual illusions and such.

I don't do primary training any more, but I do ask on a Flight Review if the pilot has ever done a tailwind landing - surprisingly, the answer is usually "no". And then typically they act as if it's a forbidden maneuver that will result in an instant, fiery death.
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Yeah, so I get that, especially with tricycle. That the first time you land downwind shouldn't be the time you have to. But it's balanced against the risk of the practice. Maybe it just comes down to speeds. 10k or so in a Cherokee, long runway? Sure, I suppose. Same in a Cub? Not me. Instant fiery death? Highly unlikely. Bent up airplane because I landed going the wrong way? That's the outcome I'm not looking for. Light and variable winds, you're going to be putting the tailwheel down in a little bit of tailwind one day or another, eventually by accident. But intentionally doing it, in a steady wind, to me, doesn't make sense, tailwheel.

As to "have to", I can see where that's the only option, in some IFR conditions. I don't see it as a have to for me, VFR, around here.
 
A lot of crosswind landing accidents happen in the latter part of the landing roll, as flight control authority is lost. Complacency plays into that, of course, but if you don't keep the aileron into the wind and keep the airplane straight with the rudder, bad things can happen.

Now, with a quartering tailwind, especially with a taildragger, who likes to lose that authority sooner that usual? At a higher speed than usual?
 
Dan Thomas said:
A lot of crosswind landing accidents happen in the latter part of the landing roll, as flight control authority is lost. Complacency plays into that, of course, but if you don't keep the aileron into the wind and keep the airplane straight with the rudder, bad things can happen.

Now, with a quartering tailwind, especially with a taildragger, who likes to lose that authority sooner that usual? At a higher speed than usual?
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“Likes to” is a different question altogether, but as I said, it’s never even gotten to the point of “entertainment” in my experience.
 
MauleSkinner said:
“Likes to” is a different question altogether, but as I said, it’s never even gotten to the point of “entertainment” in my experience.
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Champs, Cubs, Citabrias, they don't seem to mind a little tailwind if you pay attention, like you always should in a taildragger, but the T-6 does not like it. It definitely got entertaining, in fact Chuck Yeager groundlooped one doing a quartering tailwind landing, and I'm not Chuck Yeager, and I shan't be doing that again.
 
FlightofTwo said:
Champs, Cubs, Citabrias, they don't seem to mind a little tailwind if you pay attention, like you always should in a taildragger, but the T-6 does not like it. It definitely got entertaining, in fact Chuck Yeager groundlooped one doing a quartering tailwind landing, and I'm not Chuck Yeager, and I shan't be doing that again.
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Maybe Chuck Yeager wasn’t Chuck Yeager that day. ;)
 
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