Doubt on Arrow III

Airplane looks real good. But nice paint and good avionics, new engine are on,y what’s easy to see. Get a good prebuy. Could have some corrosion’s issues, AD issues, other things that need deep digging.
 
Planes for sale with new engine rebuilds always worry me. Personally, I prefer to rebuild a run out engine myself as I have control on the who and what. And what is up with the engine mount. The pictures have looking as if it had been on the ocean floor for a year. Some expensive farkles in the dash but an old GPS. $6-10K to fix the audio panel and add a second navcom. Not how I would have spent my money. Low air frame hours is good. $11K to replace the GPS when it bricks.
The engine still bothers me.
And don’t buy a plane without a pre-buy, ever. If the seller balks at that requirement, move on. there’s a reason that he is reluctant.
 
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There is no such thing as a good deal in aviation
 
Those baffles sure look old for an engine with 3 hours on it
 
Morgan3820 said:
Some expensive farkles in the dash but an old GPS. $6-10K to fix the audio panel and add a second navcom. Not how I would have spent my money.
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I presume the GI275's were to allow for vacuum system removal without having to remove the Autocontrol III.
 
asicer said:
I presume the GI275's were to allow for vacuum system removal without having to remove the Autocontrol III.
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I would agree, but why? When a second Navcom would be a bigger priority IMO.
 
As a owner of a 73 Arrow in the Houston area, I thought I should chime in. First of all, after 10 years of ownership, I still really like my Arrow. Its not the fastest, but it is an economical go some where bird.

I would look over the logs at previous very carefully. The airframe hours are pretty low which may mean long periods of inactivity. In my experience, inactivity means I am going to be fixing a lot of little things as I fly the plan regularly. The new engine helps in that regard assuming that it was recently installed. I would be concerned about gear maintenance. The Arrow gear is pretty simple but years of neglect are going to mean big maintenance bills for you at some point. I like the glass but the 430 is old, still good but I would be concerned about serviceability in the years to come. I would want an actual audio panel and not just an intercom. I would definitely get a prebuy inspection at that price. That will help identify other items that we may be missing as well as another set of eyes on the logs. The baffling looks like it could use some refreshing. That makes me wonder about the condition of the engine and hydraulic hoses.

To be clear, I am not saying this is a bad deal, just go into it with eyes wide open.
 
Maybe I'm paranoid, but I'm always suspicious of planes with fresh engine overhauls being put on the market right away. There's no incentive for the seller to do anything but the cheapest possible job, since they won't even recover the cost of the overhaul in the sales price. I'd prefer to buy a run out engine on a discount, and the oversee the overhaul myself.
 
As others have said - you need someone to look over this as part of a pre-buy. I mean you don't need to... but you would be cra cra to pop down close to $90k for this sight unseen. Pics show some of the interior looking new-ish, but those floors tho... Some pics show surface rust.. probably not bad corrosion, but maybe bad corrosion that goes deeper.... pic of the nose gear... that spring looks rus-ty.

pics are too grainy to show paint condition, but that wing walk... oy. And what is that pic showing the wires all hanging out.. maybe taken during avionics install but raises some questions.

Speaking of avionics - does the AP work? They mention the existence of it, but is it operational?

yeah, the more I type the more I think a mechanic you trust and someone who knows Arrows needs to go over this one with a keen eye before you even consider it.
 
I'll just share what popped out at me.
I'm no A&P, but according to a local A&P, that engine mount assembly would fail inspection immediately, as 'structurally compromised'. You might be able to clean it up, but you'd likely need to do something.
From seeing the rust scattered about, it may have well been a ramp queen. I'd look deep for some corrosion issues during (a very detailed) inspection.
Some of those other planes in the background also seem to tell the same story.

Again, I don't know, just things that popped out to me.
Also, if you did buy it with a salvage title, it would be harder to sell later (in my opinion).

The list of what you 'must' do will be one thing, then you have to include the list of what you 'want' to do. Those bucks pile up right quick!

Best advice I've heard: Be patient and diligent.

Good luck in your search.
 
Seem to be a lot of retracts on the market - insurance thing - so prices are depressed vs fixed gear. And doesn't seem that out of line with all of the Arrows I see on trade a plane. I can't comment on the engine, etc. Has the spar been inspected lately?
 
A retract on the market with a fresh engine from a salvage company? No damage history? You don't say?

Something smells funny. I'd insist on a thorough pre-buy, and give the underside of the airplane a real hard look.
 
Skyrys62 said:
Just referencing post #9
It'll be on record with FAA I'm guessing?
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The registered owner is a salvage company. It's not necessarily a "salvaged" aircraft. But you do the math. It probably has a less than stellar history either through neglect or an incident. If it was neglect, does the current owner have logs?

Looking at registration history further, the previous owner was also the owner of the business that its currently registered to. 5 minutes on the Google machine and I've seen enough.
 
Things people here have seen in the photos certainly sound like real concerns.
 
If it seems too good to be true, it probably is. If you are serious about buying, have an A&P go through it with a fine tooth comb.
 
Isn't it missing a door pull/handle?
 
does not mean much, but there is no NTSB reports on that N number in the data base.
 
Just a quick look at the installation of the engine you can see they cut a few corners. Engine mount, I mean how long does it take to clean inspect and paint it. Also They used a plastic tie wrap on the fuel injection fuel lines a violation of a published AD. So what else? A detailed pre-purchase needs to be done.
 
First step is get a look at the logs. If something funky in the history, will be there. If missing logs, that is obviously a concern.

Much depends on your risk tolerance for purchases. In the old days, it was viable to limit your search to aircraft with complete logs and no damage history. It still is, if money is no object. However, the fleet is shrinking and aging. Only a handful of new piston single engine retracts are made every year, probably less than the loss rate from accidents and neglect. If you rule out everything that is not immaculate, you could be looking for a long time. If flying now is your priority, then getting an IA that you really trust to advise you could open up more prospective aircraft for consideration.

Arrows were my first choice last summer when I was in the market. I ultimately went a different way, but I looked at every Arrow listed for several months. Seems like 25-50% had some kind of issue with logs, damage, or title. Found one that was beautiful. Did an N-number search and found a picture of it 10 years ago sitting on a highway in California with a wing torn off by a passing truck. Found another, googled the name of the seller, and found court records for him being convicted for serving as an aircraft front company for a drug cartel. With the right advisor to assess condition, at the right price, both of those airplanes were viable purchases for somebody.

If you give the internet a veto, someone is always going to find a spot of rust on a photo, and you will never buy anything.
 
Curious. What plane did you get instead of an Arrow ?
 
Joe_B1 said:
Don't be this guy!

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...s-first-and-last-annual-advice-needed.130394/
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That's a low blow. The guy had done everything right. Actually had what he thought was a pretty thorough pre buy done by a third party. The pre buy AP crapped the bed. Now he's left holding the bag. A cautionary tale no doubt, but I'm not blaming him. Had he not paid for a pre buy then maybe. But there was some level of deceit and incompetence that are in no way on the purchaser. He's still around and I look forward to reading what's become of this cautionary tale. I for one was helped by his story. Not that he can have any solace in that, but I do hope the harm on him has been or will be minimal in the end and that he can at least appreciate the fact he's still with us to tell us about it.
 
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Racerx said:
That's a low blow. The guy had done everything right. Actually had what he thought was a pretty thorough pre buy done by a third party. The pre buy AP crapped the bed. Now he's left holding the bag. A cautionary tale no doubt, but I'm not blaming him. Had he not paid for a pre buy then maybe. But there was some level of deceit and incompetence that are in no way on the purchaser. He's still around and I look forward to reading what's become of this cautionary tale. I for one was helped by his story. Not that he can have any solace in that, but I do hope the harm on him has been or will be minimal in the end and that he can at least appreciate the fact he's still with us to tell us about it.
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My reference was not meant to offend anyone. I was merely using it to point out the pitfalls and risks. If it was taken as an insult, then I apologize.
 
Ernesto Castro said:
Hi,

I'm still on the search for my first airplane. I'm looking now at this one https://www.kevineldredge.com/for-sale/1978-piper-arrow-iii-new-lycoming-360-200-hp

It looks like a great deal, very few hours SMOH engine and prop, low airframe time, descent avionics (missing second comm/nav and a better audiopanel, but I think I can add it later and still have a nice deal).

It is post 1977 so it has the tappered wing.

For me it looks like a very good deal and that makes me feel like there has to be something I'm not seeing. Airplane is in Washington state and I live in Houston. So going to take a look at it is already an investment. If I go should be already ready to close the deal and ferry it back to Houston.

Can anyone share some opinion on how the airplane looks?
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Savvy Aviation can look at it for you for less than you will spend to go there. They will review the logs and inpect the airplane. They will tell you what they see and dicuss with you the pros and cons of going forward with a full prebuy.

My Austin club did exactly this for a Washington State Dakota that we wound up buying, sight unseen. There were no surprises.
 
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Rgbeard said:
Is there such a thing as a "salvage title" in the case of an airplane?
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No. The NTSB Database serves this purpose for those willing to look. I've seen insurance companies branding logbooks lately too, but of course, those can get lost.
 
Joe_B1 said:
My reference was not meant to offend anyone. I was merely using it to point out the pitfalls and risks. If it was taken as an insult, then I apologize.
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Appreciate that. I am 'this guy' from the other thread. I've had several months to reflect on the situation and think if there was anything different I could have done to avoid this debacle. The fact is that four different A&P/IAs had signed off on this plane since 2017, yet I ended up with an aircraft that will be scrapped. What would I do differently? Not sure, but perhaps avoiding any airplane that had spent an extended time in Florida or near a coast, and paying for my mechanic to travel to the plane to do a prebuy....
 
obw said:
Appreciate that. I am 'this guy' from the other thread. I've had several months to reflect on the situation and think if there was anything different I could have done to avoid this debacle. The fact is that four different A&P/IAs had signed off on this plane since 2017, yet I ended up with an aircraft that will be scrapped. What would I do differently? Not sure, but perhaps avoiding any airplane that had spent an extended time in Florida or near a coast, and paying for my mechanic to travel to the plane to do a prebuy....
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I have behaved that way, completely and without context bypassing FL-based birds, to include those with less than 5 years from prior FL basing. I'm sure it has negated options, but knock on wood it has served me well, especially given my penchant for self-researched/inspection purchasing without a mechanic. To each their own indeed.
 
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