Door to door air cargo… By a private pilot??

[IK04]

Get a grip on reality people!

Ha ha ha ha!

Hey! Look at the new guy!

 

[WDD]

No.

Compensation requires a pro quo for the quid.

What if you were in England and spent a quid for a pro go pro?

 

[DaleB]

This is not an argument.


This is pure sport.

 

[Salty]

What if you were in England and spent a quid for a pro go pro?

I have footage of a squid I shot with a go pro.

 

[jsstevens]

Arguments are down the hall. This is getting hit on the head lessons.

 

[DaleB]

Arguments are down the hall. This is getting hit on the head lessons.

No it’s not!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Except...this isn't an example of someone getting compensation. He pays for the flying himself and he would make (or not make) the flight even if there were no pizzas involved.

Like I said a few pages ago, it's not necessarily illegal - We don't have the information to make a definitive determination either way, which is why we've been tossing scenarios around. But, what's important to understand is that the PILOT doesn't have to be the one being compensated for it to be illegal. Same as the example I gave with Young Eagles. If EAA chapters charged for the flight, it'd be illegal even if none of that money went to the pilot.

I am still amazed at this conversation. Do people really have that much time on their hands to think of ways rules could be interpreted to get people into trouble? No one is saying it is unsafe that he has pizzas in his back seat vs flying pizza less, which is what he'd be doing anyway. No one is accusing him of flying in unsafe conditions, taking risks for a medium cheese and pepperoni emergency delivery. It all seems to be about finding a creative and well around the barn reason why people are in violation of rules somehow.

To me, it's more of a cautionary tale to know for damn sure what you're doing yourself to avoid going afoul of the regulations. It's great that he's making people happy and building time, but it'd be a real shame if that led to him having an FAA violation on his record keeping him from getting to the very thing he's building time for.

If I'm flying to visit family for the weekend and one of my in-laws asks me to pick up a case or two of Bell's Two Hearted for them and bring it with me in the plane for them, am I in violation?

No. You and the beer have common purpose.

 

[NorthEast Ohio]

You and the beer have common purpose.

Maybe this is the key phrase “Common purpose”

The article states Pizza kid is flying home from college and stopping at Port Clinton airport to pick up pizzas then fly to Kelleys Island. Where is the common purpose if you’re making a special stop?

The photo from the article has kid wearing a Domino’s Pizza hat and jacket. It looks to me like an employee uniform. (A volunteer employee?)

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Yes. That's what makes it different from a gift.

Yes. That's what makes it different from a gift.

Indeed it does.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

To me, it's more of a cautionary tale to know for damn sure what you're doing yourself to avoid going afoul of the regulations. It's great that he's making people happy and building time, but it'd be a real shame if that led to him having an FAA violation on his record keeping him from getting to the very thing he's building time for.

As far as we know, no one in his local FSDO has any problem with what he's doing. Beyond that, lots of people have committed far worse sins in their past and still went on to find gainful employment in a pilot seat.

And I'm still asking the same question which no one seems to be able to answer. If what he's doing is illegal, why is it not illegal when a dad flys to pick up his kid from college? Why is it not illegal if I fly to a class bravo airport to pick up my inlaws who just flew in on Delta for a business meeting near where we live? What is it about those flights that makes them not illegal but somehow makes what this kid is doing illegal?

 

[EdFred]

As far as we know, no one in his local FSDO has any problem with what he's doing. Beyond that, lots of people have committed far worse sins in their past and still went on to find gainful employment in a pilot seat.

And I'm still asking the same question which no one seems to be able to answer. If what he's doing is illegal, why is it not illegal when a dad flys to pick up his kid from college? Why is it not illegal if I fly to a class bravo airport to pick up my inlaws who just flew in on Delta for a business meeting near where we live? What is it about those flights that makes them not illegal but somehow makes what this kid is doing illegal?

It's just commercial pilots bitching that they don't get paid to deliver pizzas and since he is doing it for free he stole a job from them.

 

[Deelee]

Every time I check back in on this thread two things happen:

a.) I remind myself I need to stop slacking and start on my commercial.
b.) I get hungry for pizza.

 

[Lindberg]

I feel like there are still people commenting who haven't read the article. The kid flys home to the island every week. He offered island residents to bring over some food on his regular flights if they place orders to mainland restaurants. He's not "time building" and he's not "running a delivery service." He's just going home.

 

[LoLPilot]

Unfortunately according to AC 61-142, this is prohibited. The pilot does not have to be the one receiving the compensation.

8.1 Explanation of Compensation. Compensation is the receipt of anything of value that is contingent on the pilot operating the aircraft; i.e., but for the receipt of the compensation, the pilot would not have taken that flight. Compensation does not require a profit, profit motive, or the actual payment of funds. Reimbursement of expenses, accumulation of flight time, and good will in the form of expected future economic benefits can be considered compensation. Furthermore, the pilot does not have to be the party receiving the compensation; compensation occurs even if a third party receives a benefit as a result of the flight.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I really hate it when gov't writes laws that read "if we wanna get you we will get you," which is exactly what this is. If we are talking accumulation of flight time and goodwill as benefits, and the pilot doesn't have to be the one receiving them, let's look at the following scenarios.

• A private pilot is building hours towards his commercial and needs to do some cross country flying. He has a XC route that he flies to build hours but is getting bored of it. He calls up two of his buddies and says "Hey want to fly from Chicago to Kansas City for BBQ?" And they say "sure how about Saturday?" The pilot wasn't planning on going flying Saturday, but it sounds like a fun trip and his friends are excited to go flying so he readily agrees. Even if the friends pay nothing for the flight and they have separate checks at dinner, it could be interpreted that the pilot held out and received compensation according to the way that the reg is written.
• Next our pilot is on a dating site and he matches with someone. Of course, on his second message he throws out the phrase that he knows every lady wants to hear: "I'm a pilot." So of course our young romantic takes the fair lady for a jaunt through the evening skies. And if you can say with a straight face that our pilot is not hoping for... goodwill... then I will NEVER play poker with you.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

Every time I check back in on this thread two things happen:

a.) I remind myself I need to stop slacking and start on my commercial.
b.) I get hungry for pizza.

The commercial is definitely worth getting IMO even if you never intend to fly for dollars. That being said and I'm sure you already know this but its worth mentioning for those who don't know, just getting a commercial cert will not enable a pilot to legally hold out for on-demand flights carrying pax or boxes for compensation.

And yes, every day is a good day for pizza.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

• Next our pilot is on a dating site and he matches with someone. Of course, on his second message he throws out the phrase that he knows every lady wants to hear: "I'm a pilot." So of course our young romantic takes the fair lady for a jaunt through the evening skies. And if you can say with a straight face that our pilot is not hoping for... goodwill... then I will NEVER play poker with you.

My first date with my wife I flew to an airport near where she lived, picked her up and flew her to another airport for lunch. I was definitely hoping for some, ahem, 'goodwill'.

 

[WDD]

But. What about him not having a health inspection permit? Is he following appropriate cultural sensitivity protocols? Are we sure the local sales taxes are accounted for where he delivers to? Has he provided the appropriate environmental impact study?

 

[Deelee]

That being said and I'm sure you already know this but its worth mentioning for those who don't know, just getting a commercial cert will not enable a pilot to legally hold out for on-demand flights carrying pax or boxes for compensation

Yep, I'm definitely aware of that. But what about a pilot not having a commercial license who is just carrying boxes of fresh, hot delicious pizza to some island where they can't get aforementioned fresh, hot, delicious pizza.... great now I want pizza for lunch.

 

[MauleSkinner]

So what is the fellow flying pizzas doing that's unsafe?

Associating with person or persons known to be lacking in character (reporters).

 

[Palmpilot]

Maybe this is the key phrase “Common purpose”

The article states Pizza kid is flying home from college and stopping at Port Clinton airport to pick up pizzas then fly to Kelleys Island. Where is the common purpose if you’re making a special stop?

The photo from the article has kid wearing a Domino’s Pizza hat and jacket. It looks to me like an employee uniform. (A volunteer employee?)

I was under the impression that the common-purpose doctrine only applied to expense-sharing flights.

His wearing of Domino's attire is a bad idea because it makes him LOOK like an employee, regardless of the reality of the situation. On the other hand, if they gave him the hat and jacket to keep, that could be considered compensation I suppose.

All of this is just my non-expert opinion, of course.

 

[Palmpilot]

..."if we wanna get you we will get you,"...

That principle was obvious to me thirty years ago!

 

[Palmpilot]

But. What about him not having a health inspection permit? Is he following appropriate cultural sensitivity protocols? Are we sure the local sales taxes are accounted for where he delivers to? Has he provided the appropriate environmental impact study?

I wonder if he's accepting tips?

 

[Half Fast]

I wonder if he's accepting tips?

Treasury Inflation-Protected Securities? Yeah, that might be compensation.....

 

[flyingcheesehead]

And I'm still asking the same question which no one seems to be able to answer. If what he's doing is illegal, why is it not illegal when a dad flys to pick up his kid from college?

Because dad is paying for the flight himself, and nobody else is being compensated for the flight.

Why is it not illegal if I fly to a class bravo airport to pick up my inlaws who just flew in on Delta for a business meeting near where we live?

Because you are paying for the flight yourself, and nobody else is being compensated for the flight.

What is it about those flights that makes them not illegal but somehow makes what this kid is doing illegal?

*IF* the pizza place is being compensated for the flight (ie a delivery fee) then it is compensation or hire, even if the kid isn't being paid.

The commercial is definitely worth getting IMO even if you never intend to fly for dollars.

Absolutely. Comm-ASEL is the most fun rating I've done so far, and the multi isn't bad either if burning money doesn't faze you.

I never intended to fly for dollars, but I've gotten some cool one-time opportunities because of it, and then (a decade after getting the commercial) I somehow ended up flying for dollars. Funny how life works sometimes.

 

[Morgan3820]

So while we’re on the topic. I’ve always wondered if I fly to Pik n Pig with a friend where I pay for everything but bring home a barbecue plate for the wife and later that night I get rewarded for my thoughtfulness , is that considered unlawful compensation?

 

[Half Fast]

So while we’re on the topic. I’ve always wondered if I fly to Pik n Pig with a friend where I pay for everything but bring home a barbecue plate for the wife and later that night I get rewarded for my thoughtfulness , is that considered unlawful compensation?

Yes.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

*IF* the pizza place is being compensated for the flight (ie a delivery fee) then it is compensation or hire, even if the kid isn't being paid.

I would agree with this *IF* John Q Public placed the order with the pizza place for delivery to John Q Public's address on the island. If John Q Public ordered a pizza for delivery to Ace 'Boy-Wonder' Pilot at BFE Regional Airport, then the pizza place charged for what they provided and nothing more.

By your logic, if I mention to a friend that I'm going to Ocean City, MD for some T&G's and my friend says hey I'd love some crab cakes, I'm a-ok if I park, walk to the crab cakes joint and pick them up and then walk back to the airport. But if I order a grub-hub to bring the crab cakes to meet me at the airport, I'm suddenly a part 135 operation because the grub-hub guy got paid. You show me an FAA that would bother to pursue a case like that and I'll show you an FAA that's in need of drastic budget cuts.

 

[Morgan3820]

Yes.

Someone should report me to the FAA, for repeated, willful violations.

 

[DaleB]

So while we’re on the topic. I’ve always wondered if I fly to Pik n Pig with a friend where I pay for everything but bring home a barbecue plate for the wife and later that night I get rewarded for my thoughtfulness , is that considered unlawful compensation?

Part of that could depend on how exactly she rewards you, and what state you live in.

 

[Half Fast]

Someone should report me to the FAA, for repeated, willful violations.

They’d never believe it.

 

[Hang 4]

If he lands, eats a pizza, flies home and takes a crap - has he delivered a pizza? If he could have crapped at the airport, but held it until the island, is that holding out? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[WDD]

Part of that could depend on how exactly she rewards you, and what state you live in.

Doesn’t part of the FAA language on this include the phrase “holding out”?

 

[Dana]

So while we’re on the topic. I’ve always wondered if I fly to Pik n Pig with a friend where I pay for everything but bring home a barbecue plate for the wife and later that night I get rewarded for my thoughtfulness , is that considered unlawful compensation?

Only if she's "holding out"... for "compensation"...

 

[flyingcheesehead]

So while we’re on the topic. I’ve always wondered if I fly to Pik n Pig with a friend where I pay for everything but bring home a barbecue plate for the wife and later that night I get rewarded for my thoughtfulness , is that considered unlawful compensation?

Hey, the FAA doesn't want your wife to be the one to fsck you, they want to do it themselves.

I would agree with this *IF* John Q Public placed the order with the pizza place for delivery to John Q Public's address on the island. If John Q Public ordered a pizza for delivery to Ace 'Boy-Wonder' Pilot at BFE Regional Airport, then the pizza place charged for what they provided and nothing more.

I can agree with that.

You show me an FAA that would bother to pursue a case like that and I'll show you an FAA that's in need of drastic budget cuts.

The last thing the FAA needs is budget cuts. They're already incredibly short-staffed. Our primary operations inspector is 500 miles away despite there being a FSDO literally across the street. They may need to be better at focusing their attention on the things that matter the most, but that's not going to be helped by cutting their budget even more than it already is.

But, I think that without someone reporting something, nothing at all happens these days. Getting oneself on the front page of the local news definitely increases the chances that they'll be reported for something though...

 

[PaulS]

This thread has made me lol. I don't know what possessed this kid to talk to the press, but I hope he doesn't end up regretting it. Anyone thinking about complaining to the FAA about this kid needs to get a life.

 

[GroundPointSeven]

I sure hope the FAA spends more time monitoring regulated carriers and prosecuting unregulated carriers than chasing after this guy to determine if he had a pizza slice as compensation.

Regulated carriers have their own FAA teams assigned to them that they interface with regularly. GA is separate from that.

As long as someone makes the FAA aware of this, then they will look into it. They are required by congressional mandate to investigate any safety or regulatory matters brought to their attention.