Doing the math - buy a trainer to train, or rent

jbrinker

jbrinker

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Jbrinker
Around here, renting is not cheap. Where I train, I have two choices - rent from my instructor at $120/hr wet, or join the local flying club that has the same plane as a trainer for $110 wet. (Both hobbes time)

Club costs $300 for student to join, plus $80/month, plus $400 more when you pass the checkride. Not worth it for me compared to just renting from the instructor. (Club does have some nice other planes that might make sense for other reasons someday)

at $120/hr, buying an older c172, c150, PA28 or something else around say $15-20K starts to look really good. But I'm thinking of this like a car guy, not a plane guy - so I ask on here for someone to help me do the real math.

Things I'm considering:
- Plane cost, I can front that much cash if I have to, or get a loan.
- Insurance - I assume I need some, or at least should have liability
- Maintenance (big unknown to me - instructor is an A&P though)
- Storage/tie-down/hanger
- Fuel/oil/hr
- Eventual sales amount/depreciation

I live in upstate NY, there are a few airports I could base out of, including the one where my instructor is (KSYR), or Skaneateles (6B9).

Thoughts on how to figure the actual costs of buy vs. rent? I'm only about 6hrs in at this point, thinking this is better decision to make sooner rather than later...
 
You are not going to find a C172 or PA28 for $15-$20K. If you do, you're going to probably put that same amount again or more into fixing whatever problems it has. A C150/152, yeah that'll go for about that range.

Despite what you may think $120 / hour wet is cheap. I pay $179 / hr for a C172 and instruction costs me about $65 / hr so I'm almost at $250 / hour. Even the LSA in the area is $139 / hour.

I worked out my hourly costs to about what you pay wet for a PA-28-180C 1965. They might have been lower for a C152, but once you factor in all of the items you are looking for, add in what it's going to cost you to "touch-up" the plane, do an annual/pre-buy, etc. I don't see it costing you less, not at all.

Your best bet is to drop the $700 dollars for the club plane and pony up the $80/month honestly. And if you think those amounts are are too much then (no offense) but you really aren't ready for ownership. That's a bargain..

I bought my plane for 38K and I have at least that much more into it at this point between maintenance, avionics, etc.

Others may disagree.
 
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Those rental prices don't look terrible if it is a 172. It probably won't be cheaper to buy, but I bought and didn't regret it. You have more flexibility on when the plane is available and you know the condition of the plane. You will have a hard time finding a good example for under $20k. For that price, it would probably come with quite a bit of catch up maintenance. You could find a partner.
 
I bought as I moved up in ratings. Never regretted it,the instructor cost was very reasonable at the time. Never had a scheduling problem,and could fly when I wanted to.
 
Here's some basic costs to consider, approximations:

Annual - Probably 1K-2K (if it's in good shape)
Oil Changes - $250 / per, one every 50 hours (unless you learn to do it yourself)
Gas - Assume a high GPH burn of 10, put on 20 hours in a month, $5 / gallon there goes 1K.
Avionics - Most anything you put in the panel is probably going to cost you 1K installed, some items may be 3K or a GPS will run you probably close to 10K.
Mechanic - Probably between $85-$100 an hour for anything you need done.
Pre-buy - $700-1K all depending on who does it, may be less
Transportation for pre-buy - cost of a plane ticket, unless the plane's local

Then you have loan costs, insurance, where you going to keep it? Hangar costs, tie down costs. Owning ain't cheap :)

Definitely NOT trying to talk you out of it either. I own and while I burn money doing so EVERY month, I love the freedom to be able to go to the airport, get in my plane and go wherever I want. THAT is worth it to me.
 
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Maybe the instructor will cut you a deal on dual if you rent from him. Regardless, the deal seems very reasonable. Lots pay more.(I do)
 
Owning an airplane is usually a full time hobby. Some manage to make it a full time "job". It tends to consume you. You are going to be consumed enough getting your PPL. Get your Private, then reward yourself with an airplane if you have them money and the inclination.

As for the "math". It is rare to run an airplane for less than you can rent one, unless you put more than 200 hours a year on it. Owning is more about the satisfaction of it being "yours" and being able to leave your sunglasses in the airplane, put the key on your key ring, and go out and fly on a whim without anyone telling you what to do. Beat that. You can't. But wait until youve finished your private. Getting your PPL will be a challenge enough without the ownership problems.
 
I knew a pilot who bought a used 172, to build time for a Fed pilot job (in the Agency where he already worked), then sold it for more-or-less what he paid for it.

I think it worked out to about $80 per hour, tach, for him. The risk is in selecting a decent airplane, lucking out on no hidden maintenance issues, then turning it around to sell in 18 months. I think he spent about $40K. Not sure what he sold it for, but he did mention what it worked out to per hour.

You might shop some other clubs or partnerships - I live in a high-cost are, and with pre-pay discount, I'm paying about $80 per hour Tach hour, wet. Crashing and dashing, tach time is about 80% of Hobbs.
 
$120/hr from the instructor sounds decent as long as his rates are reasonable. You're chained to him anyway through the PPL process, don't gain too much freedom by getting your own plane.

If you are happy with the instructor, rent from the instructor until you have your ticket. Then decide what to do.
 
Don't forget sales tax in that mix. FAA reports transfers to your county and state of record. I got hit with a sales tax bill and property taxes unexpectedly.

I think you could buy a C150 for $20k and put 100 hours on it. Then sell it for $20k. Basically, you'd be out insurance, gas , tax and hangar. And maybe an annual. IF you have the capability, that's the route I'd go. Burning 6 gallons an hour on a 150 will be much cheaper than 10 gallons on a 180 horse PA28 or 172.

Plus you could fly the wheel pants off the 150 and unless you trash the thing, the value is pretty much bottomed out so your purchase is more like a long term borrow really.
 
Caramon13 said:
Here's some basic costs to consider, approximations:

Annual - Probably 1K-2K (if it's in good shape)
Oil Changes - $250 / per, one every 50 hours (unless you learn to do it yourself)
Gas - Assume a high GPH burn of 10, put on 20 hours in a month, $5 / gallon there goes 1K.
Avionics - Most anything you put in the panel is probably going to cost you 1K installed, some items may be 3K or a GPS will run you probably close to 10K.
Mechanic - Probably between $85-$100 an hour for anything you need done.
Pre-buy - $700-1K all depending on who does it, may be less
Transportation for pre-buy - cost of a plane ticket, unless the plane's local

Then you have loan costs, insurance, where you going to keep it? Hangar costs, tie down costs. Owning ain't cheap :)

Definitely NOT trying to talk you out of it either. I own and while I burn money doing so EVERY month, I love the freedom to be able to go to the airport, get in my plane and go wherever I want. THAT is worth it to me.
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There is a lot of "funny" math in this. :dunno:

An annual on a "good shape" trainer should not be $1-2k. That is why they made 150's, to be easy to maintain and fly.

Oil costs $75 a case, that will get you two oil changes with a 150. Labor to change it should be $40-50.

Why would he want avionics in a trainer? If it has a Nav and a Com and an Xpndr, he is good to go.

Transportation for a pre-buy on a trainer? There are 150's and Cherokees for sale on every airport, there is no need to fly half way across the country for a pre-buy on one.

And, you don't hangar a 150 or a faded Cherokee 140.


Seriously, there is a lot of merit to buying a good 150, getting your ticket, and selling it to somebody else. It doesn't need to be complicated with Avionics upgrades, hangars, airline tickets, and $250 oil changes.
 
There's a guy on AOPA forums called Cap'n Ron who made a spreadsheet for ownership costs. If you are an AOPA member, you can hunt him down.

Back in the late 70s, I went so far as to figure a linear regression to figure this out. I no longer have that Lotus 123 spreadsheet, but the factors haven't changed materially since then.

I bought and trained in my own plane. Then after owning it for about 2 years, sold it for near what I paid, and bought a house with the cash plus loan.

Here's something few people stop to consider. If you get your PPL in a ratty, slow, ugly Taylorcraft BC-12, or a cheezy looking Cessna 150, the PPL you get is the same as if you trained in a 2014 Cirrus SR-22 with a full stack of avionics. You would get two extra endorsements, but the ink on the cert will not be any different. Besides, some quality time stuffed into a 65HP Taylorcraft with no electric will make you a better pilot in the long run.

If your budget is really $20k, and that's not a deal-breaker for a plane, you can do it. If you are stretching to scrape up $15k, better to wait, or rent. Last piece of advice. I know this is hard to imagine, but Cessna and Piper are not the only two aircraft mfg on the planet. Don't be afraid to branch out and seek new horizons. Right now, I know where there is a Porterfield that I would buy in a NY minute to train it.

Here ya go: http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_1037696_Taylorcraft+BC-65+.html
 
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Join the club and learn about airplanes.

I did it and have access to 2 airplane. The information that I have received from being in the club is worth every penny.

I would also have bought not enough airplane for what I want.

I am learning what the costs are and the airplane I want can be bought, but the expenses will be a bear. Databases for the Garmin, lights, annuals, oil changes, hose repair, tie downs, hangars, 'the engine does not sound right' $250 dollars from the A&P saying there is nothing wrong to $20,000 for a new engine, and the list goes on.

Hanging around with guys that have been flying longer than you have been alive and listening to them is awesome.
 
docmirror said:
There's a guy on AOPA forums called Cap'n Ron who made a spreadsheet for ownership costs. If you are an AOPA member, you can hunt him down.

Back in the late 70s, I went so far as to figure a linear regression to figure this out. I no longer have that Lotus 123 spreadsheet, but the factors haven't changed materially since then.

I bought and trained in my own plane. Then after owning it for about 2 years, sold it for near what I paid, and bought a house with the cash plus loan.

Here's something few people stop to consider. If you get your PPL in a ratty, slow, ugly Taylorcraft BC-12, or a cheezy looking Cessna 150, the PPL you get is the same as if you trained in a 2014 Cirrus SR-22 with a full stack of avionics. You would get two extra endorsements, but the ink on the cert will not be any different. Besides, some quality time stuffed into a 65HP Taylorcraft with no electric will make you a better pilot in the long run.

If your budget is really $20k, and that's not a deal-breaker for a plane, you can do it. If you are stretching to scrape up $15k, better to wait, or rent. Last piece of advice. I know this is hard to imagine, but Cessna and Piper are not the only two aircraft mfg on the planet. Don't be afraid to branch out and seek new horizons. Right now, I know where there is a Porterfield that I would buy in a NY minute to train it.

Here ya go: http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_1037696_Taylorcraft+BC-65+.html
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As much as I love BC-12s, he needs another aircraft to take the checkride unless he's going light sport. That said, If I had $18,000 cash to work with I am fairly certain I could pick up a decent reasonably low-maintenance airplane for him within the month and he could probably re-sell it for about what he has in it barring an accident. For that matter, he could pick up a Piper Colt or something like that for about $12,500. I bought one for that and sold it for the same and had flown it about 100 hours with myself and a couple of students.

http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_1047974_Piper+Colt+PA-22-108.html
Piper Colt - $12K - 900 hours left on engine.
 
docmirror said:
Can you explain? And if the BC-12 doesn't qual for the PPL, he can rent his CFIs 172 for a few hours for the check ride.

Nice looking Colt. An even better deal at that price. Wonder the age and cond of the fabric?
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I'm a former BC-12D owner and love 'em, that's not the issue. Usually for the PPL checkride an examiner wants an installed electronic navigation device and enough instrumentation for the hood work. I just think that the extra transition time and familiarity training negates a bit of the cost savings. Also, he COULD be asked to do any maneuver the examiner wants to see in the other aircraft.
 
JoseCuervo said:
There is a lot of "funny" math in this. :dunno:

An annual on a "good shape" trainer should not be $1-2k. That is why they made 150's, to be easy to maintain and fly.

Oil costs $75 a case, that will get you two oil changes with a 150. Labor to change it should be $40-50.

Why would he want avionics in a trainer? If it has a Nav and a Com and an Xpndr, he is good to go.

Transportation for a pre-buy on a trainer? There are 150's and Cherokees for sale on every airport, there is no need to fly half way across the country for a pre-buy on one.

And, you don't hangar a 150 or a faded Cherokee 140.


Seriously, there is a lot of merit to buying a good 150, getting your ticket, and selling it to somebody else. It doesn't need to be complicated with Avionics upgrades, hangars, airline tickets, and $250 oil changes.
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Jose, as I said, these are approximations.

Annuals on 150's are about 1K in labor. That excludes parts and yeah that can run it upwards of 2K if something is needed, if not, great.

Don't know where you get your labor rates for oil changes, but if you know a mechanic that charges 40-50 / hour awesome. I don't. If I did it myself it would just cost parts, but I'm not that saavy yet so yeah money could be saved here.

Depends on the avionics it comes with. A cheap 150/152 is probably going to be VFR only. Add a VOR/glideslope, that's 3K installed at least. The OP never said if this was going to be only for PPL, it might be for PPL/IFR..

There are most certainly not 152's for sale at every airport despite contrary belief. And I did say this is only if the plane is not local.

Fine to no hangar, but you still have a cost for a tiedown.

My costs are based on my experience. Your experience may vary, but I'm willing to bet your experience probably isn't typical for everyone out there.
 
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RyanShort1 said:
I'm a former BC-12D owner and love 'em, that's not the issue. Usually for the PPL checkride an examiner wants an installed electronic navigation device and enough instrumentation for the hood work.
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Thanks. Wasn't sure if it was equip or level of training standards from the SP to PPL.
 
15-20 will get you a so so C150
 
Caramon13 said:
Jose, as I said, these are approximations.

Annuals on 150's are about 1K in labor. That excludes parts and yeah that can run it upwards of 2K if something is needed, if not, great.

Don't know where you get your labor rates for oil changes, but if you know a mechanic that charges 40-50 / hour awesome. I don't. If I did it myself it would just cost parts, but I'm not that saavy yet so yeah money could be saved here.

Depends on the avionics it comes with. A cheap 150/152 is probably going to be VFR only. Add a VOR/glideslope, that's 3K installed at least. The OP never said if this was going to be only for PPL, it might be for PPL/IFR..

There are most certainly not 152's for sale at every airport despite contrary belief. And I did say this is only if the plane is not local.

Fine to no hangar, but you still have a cost for a tiedown.

My costs are based on my experience. Your experience may vary, but I'm willing to bet your experience probably isn't typical for everyone out there.
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Annual price is probably right for a big city, but a lot of smaller towns I bet you could find someone to let you do most of the labor and get it down to $500. I just paid $1000 for an annual on the C-172. I was getting $500/annual for the Taylorcraft I used to have.
$250 sounds steep for an oil change on the 150 but I guess some mechanics will do that to you.
A lot of the 150/152s I've seen do have a basic VOR and that's all the student needs for PPL, or a panel mounted basic GPS.
 
Thanks all for the input.

Just for the halibut, I did some searching. In the general vicinity of where I live (say within a 6 hour drive) I found what, on paper, look like a few good 150's, a couple cherokees, and a few others in the under 20K category.

Example:

1968 C150, ugly but solid and serviceable.
TTAF 3121.7 SMOH 1125 on O-200 (1800 TBO), spin on oil filter. New style spinner, new Sigmatek AI, Horton droop tips, flap gap seals, MX170B nav/com, transponder check 2014, dual PTT, 4 point harnesses, original interior. P&I both a 5. Original logs since 1968, compressions at last annual: 72, 72, 70, 75. Annual due 10/15, fresh annual with sale

Asking $12,900. Has everything I would need for my ticket. Assuming it did not need major work in the next hundred hours. 700ish hours left till TBO, only 3100 on the airframe.

There are several more like this, in general. C150, a couple pipers, and others.

Doing the math, what does that O-200 in a C150 burn while training?

As for maintenance - I'm an extremely mechanical person. I've built engines (cars , trucks, lawnmowers :) ) and would do anything I could legally do myself. Oil change would not be an issue. Getting an A&P to work under would probably not be too bad either, since my instructor is an A&P as well.

So, using this one as an example, if I didn't roll it up in a ball sometime in my training, or run it out of oil, seems like it would still be worth $12K when I was done.

Net plane cost = 0 after sold
Annual first year = 0 (included w sale)
Transport plane expenses = $1000
Sales Tax: $1040
Gas = $4 a gallon out here, 5gph, 100hrs = $2000
Oil changes (2) = ? $150? done by me
Oil usage = ? $100?
Insurance (basic liability) = ? $250/yr?
Tie downs at local airport = $30/month x 12 = $360


Total non purchase (expense) = 4900 / 100hr = $49/hr

Am I insane or does this actually make sense?
 
Insurance and tie down seems low, but other than that looks ok to me. I would budget more like $600/year for ins, and more like $100/mo for tie down outside in rural NY. Shop around at some private strips you may find a deal.

It's also best to set aside $2000 for 'oh spit!' items like needing a cyl and then maybe a nose gear rebuild. If you don't spend it, no prob, but it should be there just in case.
 
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I would think that could work out just fine. Even if you fire sale it at the end for $11000 you'll probably come out OK.
 
Hmm. Im going to think on this. I think it could really work at that price.

One more Q: Pre-buy inspection. This particular plane "comes with a fresh annual" but for all I know it was done by the seller's brother with a wink and a nod. Anyone have any good resources (threads on here, FAQ, websites) that talk about how to do a pre-buy? Who to hire for the inspection and what to look for?

Totally not sold on this particular plane anyway, just using it as an example. I could spend up to $20-25K - but I want to be sure to be able to get back out of it if the spit hits the fan and I cant finish my PPL, or I just decide to get something better after (or get into a partnership/share).

THis particular one looks like the car equivalent of buying a clean, but used 8 year old honda civic for $3K. If I don't smash it up, I know I can sell it for what I paid for it in a year or two...
 
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jbrinker said:
Hmm. Im going to think on this. I think it could really work at that price.

One more Q: Pre-buy inspection. This particular plane "comes with a fresh annual" but for all I know it was done by the seller's brother with a wink and a nod. Anyone have any good resources (threads on here, FAQ, websites) that talk about how to do a pre-buy? Who to hire for the inspection and what to look for?

Thanks again-
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Bring your instructor friend along. If he's willing to get in it to train you, that's a start. If he has experience with his own plane, that should help some. I would also want at least a lookover by an independent A&P even if the annual comes with the plane. It's a 150, so finding a mechanic that knows a bit about them shouldn't be too hard. Cosmetics are a meh, but airframe condition, corrosion, engine stuff, ADs, all of those kinds of things are important.

I had a seller tell me his 172 was perfect - was the mayor of a small town and a CFI. I had a mechanic I had recommended to me by a good friend go look at it and he found a bent firewall and three rivets missing on the nosewheel attachment point. He also found some serious inter-granular corrosion at the wing roots. Needless to say the inspection ended with those two items and I was very happy to pay him for his time and walk away from the aircraft.
 
For a pre-buy, focus on the killer items. Corrosion in the spar area, wrinkled firewall, metal in the oil, stuff like that. Don't obsess over paint, int, radios, cracked fairings, etc. Cover the really high dollar items with the A&P of YOUR choice.

150M in Grennwich: http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_1053603_1974+Cessna+150M+commuter.html

Faster than a 68, but depends on hours and condition and radios.
 
jbrinker said:
Around here, renting is not cheap. Where I train, I have two choices - rent from my instructor at $120/hr wet, or join the local flying club that has the same plane as a trainer for $110 wet. (Both hobbes time)

Club costs $300 for student to join, plus $80/month, plus $400 more when you pass the checkride. Not worth it for me compared to just renting from the instructor. (Club does have some nice other planes that might make sense for other reasons someday)

at $120/hr, buying an older c172, c150, PA28 or something else around say $15-20K starts to look really good. But I'm thinking of this like a car guy, not a plane guy - so I ask on here for someone to help me do the real math.

Things I'm considering:
- Plane cost, I can front that much cash if I have to, or get a loan.
- Insurance - I assume I need some, or at least should have liability
- Maintenance (big unknown to me - instructor is an A&P though)
- Storage/tie-down/hanger
- Fuel/oil/hr
- Eventual sales amount/depreciation

I live in upstate NY, there are a few airports I could base out of, including the one where my instructor is (KSYR), or Skaneateles (6B9).

Thoughts on how to figure the actual costs of buy vs. rent? I'm only about 6hrs in at this point, thinking this is better decision to make sooner rather than later...
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With six hours I would consider nothing but doing what your currently doing.how could you possibly know what you might like to fly eventually? If your flying out of a small airport currently, I'd try to get a good bit of taildragger time if ones available as its time well spent. ( if ones around)and after you get a ppl then I'd start to look around for something to buy. Hanging around an airport, speaking with various owners and instructors will answer all your questions. They've all been there.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
With six hours I would consider nothing but doing what your currently doing.how could you possibly know what you might like to fly eventually? If your flying out of a small airport currently, I'd try to get a good bit of taildragger time if ones available as its time well spent. ( if ones around)and after you get a ppl then I'd start to look around for something to buy. Hanging around an airport, speaking with various owners and instructors will answer all your questions. They've all been there.
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Bolded the emphasis point. To the OP, I think it might be better to get your PPL then think about buying a trainer. Especially if you plan on stopping after your PPL.

I don't know of many people who buy a "trainer" for a PPL unless they plan on keeping it afterwards for personal use. The plane I bought I'm totally planning on selling after I'm done "training". I have no myths or illusions about keeping it for 30 years or w/e.

Your mission may be different, but buy for that. Your PPL isn't going to take 100 hours (unless you really need help), so my question is, are you asking about a trainer for your PPL or are you going beyond that? Or is this a trainer/personal use plane? A trainer is something you use and then sell in my opinion).

If you are going for your IFR after your PPL, make sure the plane is equipped now for IFR. Same for commercial, etc. Starting with the lowest denominator because it's cheap is going to force you to add stuff to it possibly if your mission changes.
 
OP specifically is talking about buying to train in, then selling.
 
Considering how much time goes into finding an aircraft, hardly seems worth it for 60-70 hours of work for just a PPL. Can take a month to find a good one, pre-buy it, fix it, etc. If IFR, then yeah I understand, that's what I did.

Meh..w/e :)
 
You want a simple formula - I'm not sure there is one. Build a spreadsheet and put in the numbers for your situation.

I can tell you from my experience that it would have been cheaper for me to have bought an airplane for my training. 20 hours a month cost me $2,365 in a club. Similar plane would have been $1,760 for 20 hours if I owned it and accepted the risk of exceptional mechanical problems. Also, I would have an airplane to fly right now.

My numbers from the last time I did the math:
Purchase Warrior at $29,999, monthly payment = $315
Parking $45
Insurance $1200/yr = $100/month

My total fixed cost is $460/month.
Variable cost per hour is gas + maintenance set aside + engine overhaul set aside. For me, that was 34 + 11 + 15 = $60. Instructor cost was the same as the club, so I set that aside.

If I flew 20 hours per month, my cost was 460 + (20 * 60) = 1760.

Compare that to a club where the Warrior was $115/hr with $65/month dues. 20 hours cost is $2,365.

Somewhere in there is the break even point.
 
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bflynn said:
I can tell you from my experience that it would have been cheaper for me to have bought an airplane for my training. 20 hours a month cost me $2,365 in a club. Similar plane would have been $1,760 for 20 hours if I owned it and accepted the risk of exceptional mechanical problems. Also, I would have an airplane to fly right now.
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I agree. Also, if you are going to "build time" up to 250 hours for commercial, if you can get something at the right price, those hours are a lot less difficult to reach. IFR capabilities of course help, but not all of those hours need to be IFR, either.
 
Also check the useful load of a 150. With you and your instructor plus fuel @6 lbs/gal, will you be able to fly? If so, it's a great trying aircraft.
 
The guys who own and renting aircraft out are making money, right? So technically that tells me that ownership can break even or be cheaper. Rent while you shop. Find a good solid, low time engine, economical proven trainer. Fly, fly, fly.

Guess I went against the grain of most. I purchased a 150L to achieve my ppl. I debated but figured it would come close to breaking even in the long run. The freedom of ownership was worth a good bit to me. Once you solo the ability to show up and fly when weather is perfect is a plus.

I have 20K insurance on aircraft at 750$ annually. This will decrease once I reach the magic 100hrs. 30$ month tiedown. Annual average 500/1000$ but I have developed a great relationship with my AP/AI. He has figured out I'm mechanically inclined an allows me to do the wrench turning while glancing over my shoulder. Plus I'm learning and having a blast doing it! Everything else fluctuates with flight time.

I love airplanes so I enjoy everything about ownership. Even a recent unexpected cylinder change out. It's mine. People drop 40k-50k in a vehicle without a problem. Me, I decided to keep driving my, nothing wrong with '01 and purchase a 20k dream. Quickly pay it off and build time.
 
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Greenhead said:
The guys who own and renting aircraft out are making money, right? So technically that tells me that ownership can break even or be cheaper. Rent while you shop. Find a good solid, low time engine, economical proven trainer. Fly, fly, fly.
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A lot of owners are probably like me breaking even on a trainer, but we have a lot more overhead - 100 hr inspections, commercial insurance, etc that an owner doesn't need to pay for.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Yeah, there is a break even point. The break even point is when you run out of money.

Maintenance is the big unknown. Most trainers you rent are kept on the ramp, but they have higher insurance and 100 hour inspections. Owners usually have hangars. A hangar is more expensive. Prices vary though. Some places they are as low as 100/month. Some as high as 700.

Fixed Costs:
Annual
Insurance
Hangar

Hourly costs:
fuel
oil
maintenance (the big unknown)

Then there is the cost of purchase and money back from sale, or depreciation in accounting terms.
If you figure engine reserve, its not part of the cash flow, its really in the depreciation.

The rental figures give you a pretty good idea how much its going to be. And no, they arent necessarily making money.
 
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I have done this exercise ad nauseum. I can't make it work and I pay $110 per hour for a 172M with a 430.

I include in my calculations

Insurance
Fuel
Hanger/Annual Maintenance
Engine reserve
Financing

The issue is the fixed costs make up a big chunk. I have to fly more than say 80 hours to get i about what I am paying now per hour.

The other issue to consider is how much total can you spend for the year. At some point the hourly rate is not the issue anymore. For example I can afford to fly 30-50 a year but not 80-100 which is where the break even is. So my flying budget right now is say 5000 a year so and while yes with each flight the cost per hour goes down I simply don't have 8000 right now to spend.
 
Thanks for all the input folks. I think this is a valuable discussion, regardless of what I personally decide to do. Good links to good resources (spreadsheets etc) as well as a lot of good opinions.

After mulling this around, and getting prices on tiedowns at the local small country airport (not KSYR) I think it would be beneficial to me - IF I am able to fly at least 60 hrs a year. Right now, I'm planning on about 2hrs a week actual hobbes time - weather permitting. That puts me at 100hrs for the year roughly.

I do plan to move into IFR after getting my PPL. I would not consider a trainer that was not at least minimally equipped for IFR training.

However, there is one big sticky possible boondoggle to all of this - I'm still working with Dr. Bruce for my 3rd class. If that falls through, I'm probably done, or if it's not worth submitting I will be looking at LSA, and thats a whole other ball of wax (airplanes).

(As an aside, doesn't it just burn your A** that the LSA rules just so nicely exclude the C150 and many other small yet affordable and plentiful 2-place trainers?)

So, I think for the time being, I will continue to rent. If by spring I'm medically certified (and probably have soloed by then) then I will likely start looking for something like I have outlined above. Something to build time, skill, and possibly go for IFR in.
 
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