Does the >150NM Solo Cross Country require 3 landings at controlled airfields? Is my CFI wrong??

I’m interesting to learning more about PAR approaches. Is this requested from tower or approach, and does every airport have this option?
Very few places still have PAR, and the ones that do are military bases (though they very well may let you fly it).

The more common version is an ASR, or Surveillance, approach, which provides azimuth but not glidepath information. Assuming you're using an EFB, look under Approaches and Radar Minimums to find them. Most Class C airports do have them, I'd guess.
 
Very few places still have PAR, and the ones that do are military bases (though they very well may let you fly it).

The more common version is an ASR, or Surveillance, approach, which provides azimuth but not glidepath information. Assuming you're using an EFB, look under Approaches and Radar Minimums to find them. Most Class C airports do have them, I'd guess.
It can help to think of ASR as nonprecision and PAR as precision.
 
Edit: I think I found it. The 1940 CAR Part 20 includes this (my emphasis):

...applicant shall have logged at least 5 hours of cross-country flying of which at least 3 hours shall be solo, which shall include at least one flight over a course of not less than 50 miles with at least two full-stop landings at different points on such course. Such experience shall be certified to by some person, other than the applicant, having direct knowledge thereof...​

That may be where it came from. As I said earlier, some things die hard.

Goodness. Was that presented on two scrolls, or chiseled into stone tablets? :D

TIL!
 
Goodness. Was that presented on two scrolls, or chiseled into stone tablets? :D

TIL!
They are aviation regs. They take at least 4 scrolls.

Actually, they are old regs I came across searching for the history of the "sole manipulator" logging of PIC about 15 years ago.
 
I’m interesting to learning more about PAR approaches. Is this requested from tower or approach, and does every airport have this option?
This is a radar approach, so the request goes to Approach Control. There are many towers without approach radar, and since it is a bit intensive for the controller, a busy tower controller could not do that as well as controlling other traffic.
 
AFAIK Precision Approach Radar (PAR) is only available at military airports. Tower asked if I wanted one on my IFR check ride at CHS, a joint-use base, so PAR was my check ride precision approach. If you're near a military airport it wouldn't hurt to ask.
 
If the regs didn't require it, it may have been my (141) flight school that required it in 1977... but it was a college flight program, so maybe they figured their 17-18 year old students where less trustworthy than schools catering to older students... o_O
 
I just want to know how people remember what they were directed to do on their long cross countries 20, 30 and 40 years ago?

I'm serious. Do people actually remember details like this so long ago? I can't even remember my first solo in 1987, much less any direction a CFI might have given me about any flight during that time.

Maybe my mental decline is worse than I thought....
Don't feel bad. I do not really remember my first solo, in 1978, in a C140. I do remember the first time I flew a nose wheel airplane, 1979 or 80. It was in Hawaii, C150, with a close family friend that was also an instructor, he was quite a character. He flew the Hump in WWII and was a pilot for Continental Airlines. We flew from Honolulu to Dillingham and Lin got out, with my student certificate, and told me to go around the field 3 times.
 
I just want to know how people remember what they were directed to do on their long cross countries 20, 30 and 40 years ago?

I'm serious. Do people actually remember details like this so long ago? I can't even remember my first solo in 1987, much less any direction a CFI might have given me about any flight during that time.

Maybe my mental decline is worse than I thought....

Some may have signatures, business cards, stamps, etc., in their logbooks.

My solo XC guidance was very simple. Essentially it boiled down to fly the planned route, stop at the planned places, and if you need to divert, do it and call us back at the FBO so we can figure out what to do next.
 
I'm serious. Do people actually remember details like this so long ago? I can't even remember my first solo in 1987, much less any direction a CFI might have given me about any flight during that time
No memory required. You have the signatures or you dont.
 
With adsb now, it's easier to prove you've done a flight. But there was a time, if questioned, you had to prove you did a flight for the FAA. There was a a lot of number 2 P-51 time being logged. It was a long time ago, for me, but it was a suggestion (very highly recommended) for the long cross country. Then if the faa wanted to check, and some air safety inspectors would check on the flights. The Shreveport FSDO was notorious at one time.
 
With adsb now, it's easier to prove you've done a flight. But there was a time, if questioned, you had to prove you did a flight for the FAA. There was a a lot of number 2 P-51 time being logged. It was a long time ago, for me, but it was a suggestion (very highly recommended) for the long cross country. Then if the faa wanted to check, and some air safety inspectors would check on the flights. The Shreveport FSDO was notorious at one time.
Did they verify the signatures against authorized signatures on file?
 
Pu
Very few places still have PAR, and the ones that do are military bases (though they very well may let you fly it).

The more common version is an ASR, or Surveillance, approach, which provides azimuth but not glidepath information. Assuming you're using an EFB, look under Approaches and Radar Minimums to find them. Most Class C airports do have them, I'd guess.
Pueblo (KPUB) is heavily used by the USAF Academy and the IPT program, but they stopped doing PAR years ago. I planned my long instrument XC to include the PAR there. When we got nearby, tower told me no more PARs. bummed.
 
Yes, like "over square", some things are really latched onto!
Every takeoff I’ve ever done - so I guess I did latch on to it in a way ;)

My CFI had a GoPro like camera in the cockpit for my solo work, except for operations at a towered airport, since those would be recorded anyway.
 
I just want to know how people remember what they were directed to do on their long cross countries 20, 30 and 40 years ago?

I'm serious. Do people actually remember details like this so long ago? I can't even remember my first solo in 1987, much less any direction a CFI might have given me about any flight during that time.

Maybe my mental decline is worse than I thought....
I don't remember my first solo either. But a first solo cross country with a route in the opposite direction as the dual, getting lost on the first leg, com failure on the second leg to a towered airport, diverting to an nontowered airport to avoid the need for light gun signals, thereby being late enough to have initial lost aircraft inquiries started? You bet I remember! I can still give you a lot of detail 33 years later.
 
My CFI advised me to take off from my towered origin airport A, fly to nearby towered airport B, fly 60NM to uncontrolled airport C, then back to B, then back to A. That's 3 landings at three points (B, C, then B again), with 3 at towered airports (A, B, and B again). This makes no sense to me.

According to my reading of the regs, I just have to fly ≥150NM with 3 landings other than at my origin, and the furthest field just has to be >50NM from my origin. There's nothing about whether the airfields need to be towered or not.

Am I missing something in § 61.109 Aeronautical experience. (5)(ii) ??
"One solo cross country flight of 150 nautical miles total distance, with full-stop landings at three points, and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations"​

Point (5)(iii) talks about 3 landings and take-offs at a controlled airport, but that's a separate part of the 10 hour solo minimum. Don't most people do that as their first solo? Three landings and take-offs from the traffic pattern?
No, most people don’t do this as first solo because most people learn at uncontrolled airports.
 
Very few places still have PAR, and the ones that do are military bases (though they very well may let you fly it).

The more common version is an ASR, or Surveillance, approach, which provides azimuth but not glidepath information. Assuming you're using an EFB, look under Approaches and Radar Minimums to find them. Most Class C airports do have them, I'd guess.
I guess I count myself as lucky then, having done a few into Langley AFB back when working on my instrument rating (low approach only, not cleared to land). I remember them being a joy to fly and pretty easy....just do what he said... controller did all the work!

whoever it was in an earlier post that said a PAR was their precision approach on the checkride....if it was easy as I remember it being, I'd count yourself lucky!
 
I was told to bring back the receipt for gas at the farthest place. I thought it was to be sure I didn't run out and to get reimbursed though.

It was a while ago...
 
I don't remember my first solo either. But a first solo cross country with a route in the opposite direction as the dual, getting lost on the first leg, com failure on the second leg to a towered airport, diverting to an nontowered airport to avoid the need for light gun signals, thereby being late enough to have initial lost aircraft inquiries started? You bet I remember! I can still give you a lot of detail 33 years later.
I remember the airplane performing really well, and doing my best landings to date on my first solo (Cessna 140.)

I remember doing a solo cross country to a tower-controlled airport (KANE) for my solo tower work, and getting lost both ways. Good news is I got lost in the same place, and read the same water tower to find myself.

My long cross country was to two airports along I-90, so the second leg was easy, but I had to work to keep track of my position on the way home so I wouldn’t fly past the airport. I was talking to the FSS guy about that when I got back (they were on the field back then) and he explained DF Steers to me.

This was 1982.
 
whoever it was in an earlier post that said a PAR was their precision approach on the checkride....if it was easy as I remember it being, I'd count yourself lucky!

I'm curious how that would work in practice - do you fail if the controller does a bad job? How does the examiner evaluate the "within 3/4 scale deflection" standard?

Even pre-ACS, when it was the PTS, at least that standard was still the same. However, the ACS no longer allows PAR approaches to be used for the Precision Approach task of an instrument checkride (if the PTS ever did).
 
I’m interesting to learning more about PAR approaches. Is this requested from tower or approach, and does every airport have this option?
You will only find them at military airfields.

You would as approach for a practice PAR and state low approach (you are not allowed to land at a military airfield unless military or aeroclub).
 
You can do it at uncontrolled fields, but you need someone at each stop to sign your logbook, proving you were there. Could be a lineman, fueled, or the lady at the fbo. Or you could buy gas at each place, make sure the n number and airport are on the receipt.

Over 1100 hours dual given and I have never had a single student get their log book signed by someone at the airport. I have never even heard of this.
 
I flew a PAR on my instrument check ride. I'd say PAR is no more or less difficult that ILS. Both require fine aircraft control. Without the appropriate training I doubt the average non-instrument-rated pilot could do either.
 
I flew a PAR on my instrument check ride. I'd say PAR is no more or less difficult that ILS. Both require fine aircraft control. Without the appropriate training I doubt the average non-instrument-rated pilot could do either.
How long ago was this? Just trying to figure out if it was actually allowed at the time.
 
My CFI advised me to take off from my towered origin airport A, fly to nearby towered airport B, fly 60NM to uncontrolled airport C, then back to B, then back to A. That's 3 landings at three points (B, C, then B again), with 3 at towered airports (A, B, and B again). This makes no sense to me.

According to my reading of the regs, I just have to fly ≥150NM with 3 landings other than at my origin, and the furthest field just has to be >50NM from my origin. There's nothing about whether the airfields need to be towered or not.

Am I missing something in § 61.109 Aeronautical experience. (5)(ii) ??
"One solo cross country flight of 150 nautical miles total distance, with full-stop landings at three points, and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations"​

Point (5)(iii) talks about 3 landings and take-offs at a controlled airport, but that's a separate part of the 10 hour solo minimum. Don't most people do that as their first solo? Three landings and take-offs from the traffic pattern?

When I used to do primary instruction, I would make one of the airports on the XC a towered field, just to add variety to the learning experience. It is not required, but since our home field is uncontrolled, I wanted the student to get the maximum learning benefit instead of teaching for the minimum standard. Students who exclusively learn from an uncontrolled field develop a phobia for talking to ATC, so what your CFI is asking is not unreasonable.
 
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I had my logbook signed by the fuel guy on my first solo XC in 1978. I didn't ask him; he volunteered to do it when I told him it was my first solo XC.

Later, I don't remember if I even suggested it to my students. It just doesn't matter. Your log book is an official record and you can add anything you want to it
 
Not quite "anything". There's that funny 61.59 with the revocation penalty.
And I would think that the more “anythings” one adds, the closer the scrutiny will be when qualifying an applicant for a checkride, as there’s more to distract from the documentation of regulatory requirements.
 
Not quite "anything". There's that funny 61.59 with the revocation penalty.

Well, of course, we had more common sense and a virtuous belief in honesty back then...

I was well into my instrument rating before I found out people were putting bogus hours in their logbooks. It never occurred to me.
 
My favorite story was the guy who went to his Commercial checkride. DPE was looking at all his twin time and figured out the guy was going around local airports and using tail numbers off parked airplanes. The guy claimed something like 15 - 20 hours in a certain twin..........

Wait for it


Wait for it


OWNED BY THE DPE.
 
My favorite story was the guy who went to his Commercial checkride. DPE was looking at all his twin time and figured out the guy was going around local airports and using tail numbers off parked airplanes. The guy claimed something like 15 - 20 hours in a certain twin..........

Wait for it


Wait for it


OWNED BY THE DPE.
I’ve heard that same story about twins, Bonanzas, and taildraggers. :dunno:
 
May be urban legend, but it does illustrate the pitfalls of logging fake time.
 
My favorite story was the guy who went to his Commercial checkride. DPE was looking at all his twin time and figured out the guy was going around local airports and using tail numbers off parked airplanes. The guy claimed something like 15 - 20 hours in a certain twin..........

Wait for it


Wait for it


OWNED BY THE DPE.
My least favorite story was a kind of the opposite. The pilot decided it was no longer necessary to log solo after his private, forgetting that he needed it for his commercial. Got rejected by the DPE who would not accept him identifying the qualifying flights and updating his logbook. Poor guy was so disillusioned he gave up flying.
 
Did he not log them? Or just not filled out the solo column?

Did he have ways to prove the time like receipts from rental?

And you only need 15 hours. Should have just done that again to have it in the logbook.
 
My least favorite story was a kind of the opposite. The pilot decided it was no longer necessary to log solo after his private, forgetting that he needed it for his commercial. Got rejected by the DPE who would not accept him identifying the qualifying flights and updating his logbook. Poor guy was so disillusioned he gave up flying.
Mark, I really don't think I understand this. That should be caught by the CFI long before the checkride, and the edits made. I know that of the Commercial students I've had, roughly 100% were in exactly the situation, and had stopped logging solo time. Heck, some paper logbooks don't even have a solo column.
 
RussR, no doubt that few of us received their PPL before 1956, but 5 of my first 6 instructors received their CFI's before that date, and I started my training the year after that date.

I checked my first log book, and all my solo cross countries have a signature in the remarks column, "Landed OK" or similar.


Those who do not believe that people remember their first solo landing, mine was 54 years ago, and it is still vivid. In a 1960 Cessna 150, I converted from a full flaps, idle power descent, trim neutral, to a full power go around, due to a helicopter doing a simulated engine out landing in the grass beside the runway.

The number of accidents that pilots have from that configuration is high, and shows that many get poor training. Every time I read of such accidents, I thank Ozzie Eanes, who was standing beside the taxiway watching as I successfully made the transition in full control, flew the pattern again, and landed.
 
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