Does the >150NM Solo Cross Country require 3 landings at controlled airfields? Is my CFI wrong??

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JackFliesGA

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Jack L.
My CFI advised me to take off from my towered origin airport A, fly to nearby towered airport B, fly 60NM to uncontrolled airport C, then back to B, then back to A. That's 3 landings at three points (B, C, then B again), with 3 at towered airports (A, B, and B again). This makes no sense to me.

According to my reading of the regs, I just have to fly ≥150NM with 3 landings other than at my origin, and the furthest field just has to be >50NM from my origin. There's nothing about whether the airfields need to be towered or not.

Am I missing something in § 61.109 Aeronautical experience. (5)(ii) ??
"One solo cross country flight of 150 nautical miles total distance, with full-stop landings at three points, and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations"​

Point (5)(iii) talks about 3 landings and take-offs at a controlled airport, but that's a separate part of the 10 hour solo minimum. Don't most people do that as their first solo? Three landings and take-offs from the traffic pattern?
 
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You can do it at uncontrolled fields, but you need someone at each stop to sign your logbook, proving you were there. Could be a lineman, fueled, or the lady at the fbo. Or you could buy gas at each place, make sure the n number and airport are on the receipt.
 
Mikey52 said:
You can do it at uncontrolled fields, but you need someone at each stop to sign your logbook, proving you were there. Could be a lineman, fueled, or the lady at the fbo. Or you could buy gas at each place, make sure the n number and airport are on the receipt.
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Thanks Mikey. Good info. I thought maybe my EFB + AHRS data would be sufficient evidence but the paper receipts couldn't hurt! :D
 
JackFliesGA said:
My CFI advised me to
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There is not enough information to know whether the CFI is "wrong." He or she could have any number of reasons for the advised route.
 
Mikey52 said:
You can do it at uncontrolled fields, but you need someone at each stop to sign your logbook, proving you were there. Could be a lineman, fueled, or the lady at the fbo. Or you could buy gas at each place, make sure the n number and airport are on the receipt.
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Where did you get that information?
 
dmspilot said:
There is not enough information to know whether the CFI is "wrong." He or she could have any number of reasons for the advised route.
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My CFI says that my Long XC requires 3 landing at controlled airports. He advised that route based on that understanding.
 
Perhaps It’s a school rule, or his own personal rule. But it’s not the reg. Also, In your description you say “three landings other than the origin”. That’s also not in the reg. One of the landings can be the origin.
 
JackFliesGA said:
My CFI advised me to take off from my towered origin airport A, fly to nearby towered airport B, fly 60NM to uncontrolled airport C, then back to B, then back to A. That's 3 landings at three points (B, C, then B again), with 3 at towered airports (A, B, and B again). This makes no sense to me.

According to my reading of the regs, I just have to fly ≥150NM with 3 landings other than at my origin, and the furthest field just has to be >50NM from my origin. There's nothing about whether the airfields need to be towered or not.

Am I missing something in § 61.109 Aeronautical experience. (5)(ii) ??
"One solo cross country flight of 150 nautical miles total distance, with full-stop landings at three points, and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations"​

Point (5)(iii) talks about 3 landings and take-offs at a controlled airport, but that's a separate part of the 10 hour solo minimum. Don't most people do that as their first solo? Three landings and take-offs from the traffic pattern?
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Understand that there is a difference between the FAA rules, school policies, and what a CFI might want you to do, especially on the (sort of) long solo cross country to give you a broader range of experience.

I don't know your exact route, but perhaps aside from the overall length, your instructor's assignment makes sense to me.

and, btw, the thing about signature's at each location? there is no such rule. I'm not sure if there ever has been one but if It ever was, it hasn't been there for decades.
 
JackFliesGA said:
Thanks Mikey. Good info. I thought maybe my EFB + AHRS data would be sufficient evidence but the paper receipts couldn't hurt! :D
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Just to make clear, no you do not need to have someone sign your logbook at each stop Unless that is your flight school or CFI's rule.

Funny. I don't think I've even heard that one for at least 25 years.
 
I had to stop into a tower controlled field when I did my long XC back in nineteen-eighty-*cough, cough*.
Not sure if it was the regulation at the time or a rule at my part 141 puppy mill.
 
It's not a FAR requirement to land at a controlled field on your solo XC flights. But since there IS a separate requirement for solo landings at a controlled field, you might as well combine them and get double credit. I have had my students do that many times.

If you are a Part 141 school, there may be syllabus requirements for it, however.

And no, there is no FAR requirement to get signatures at each stop. It used to be a thing, many many years ago (at least more than 30).
 
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In 2015 I flew to 2 non towered airports and then back to the towered airport for my long XC. I did not have to get my log book signed by anyone. I made them full stop landings and taxied back to the start of the runway and took off for the next airport. When I got back my instructor was surprised to see me so soon. He questioned if I landed at each which I did. If I had to get my log book signed it would have taken much longer and higher expense renting the plane.

My late friend told me when he did his long XC in the 80s, he had to get his log book signed. At one of the airports the manger told him he would sign his log book 3 times because that is how many times he bounced his landing! He/we laughed at himself. He said he was always landing too fast because he was a drag racer.
 
*whew* thanks @midlifeflyer and @RussR @Salty @NorthEast Ohio !

I hadn’t thought about it being the school’s rule/practice. Now at least I know how to ask for clarification.

He’s from China so it’s possible that — even though he can pass TOEFL — it’s easy for him to get into a linguistic rut and say things that he’s used to saying, or maybe a previous trainer has told him to say.

It’s also possible he forgot that my first solo was three full-stops from the pattern at a controlled airport.
 
For my 150nm solo cross country, I didn't land at a single towered airport and nobody signed anything. However, I would highly suggest talking with your CFI and asking if there's some other reason that he is recommending that route.

ETA: MauleSkinner beat me to it. :)
 
The requirements are the bare minimum requirements.

Yes, there is a 150nm xc w/ 3 airports*. However, there is nothing that says you cannot turn it into a 500nm xc w/ 10 airports** with 10 t&g and 3 full stops at each one. So, as long as you are meeting the requirements, anything else is fair game.

In this case, it just sounds like the CFI (or the school) wants you to practice interacting w/ controlled airfields. This is a skill that actually concerns some pilots' blood pressure to rise. So making the student interact w/ controllers is an understandable thing.

* yes, there are other assorted points in this specific requirement. They are not relevant to my post.
** yes, yes, make sure the other assorted points are also met while doing this extended xc.
 
When I did my student cross countries in 1977 getting a signature was required, but none of the stops (except the last, where I was training) was a towered field. The long cross country had to be three 100 mile legs for a 300 mile total.
 
I took a few pictures the day of my long XC, this is one of them. I was following the pencil line I had put on my chart ahead of time. I remember thinking oh look there is Dayton Ohio just like it shows on my chart, gained some confidence that day. I also had to use FF, flight following, not foreflight. I never even heard of it then) so I couldn't get too lost and got clearance through C air space.
There was a G530 in the panel but I wasn't shown how to use it much before hand and didn't use it.

Seems like going back to a airport that you already landed at would not be that challenging?
As soon as I stopped flying the plane to take this picture I was banking and climbing, I was really "green" this day.
6-3-16%20Plane%20pictures%20032.jpg

That is Wright Patterson air force base, wow I wonder if I am allowed to be here? I thought to myself.(looking to be intercepted by a jet) lol Good old FF made it alright.
6-3-2016%20plane%20pictures%20021_1.jpg
 
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Your instructor may see skills that need more practice, and designed this flight to give more exposure to advance the quality of your training. Tailored to your best outcome.

Or he may be copying his own PPL training.

Or, he may be a controlling person.

You can pick any of the above, but picking the first is the wise choice, it will make a better relationship with him, and that always improves learning outcomes.


My instructor repeatedly asked/required me to do things that were beyond the FAR's because they would make me a better pilot.

Short field takeoff from grass fields, "You do these under the worst conditions, you do not need this at long or paved strips". Exactly right.
That also gave me a number of grass landings endorsed by a CFI, to satisfy our insurance rules to fly to grass strips near relatives.

PAR approaches to about 20 feet, night, under the hood. Not needed for PPL, but a last resort if I ever got trapped on top (Never did, good weather briefs, and willing to fly a different day).

He required all solo cross countries be well longer than FAR's, the point of CC's is to learn to fly where you have never been.

Signatures in the log removed the chance that the Examiner asked you to describe in detail some of the airports you claimed to have flown to solo, to see if you had been there. He had been to every airport within several hundred miles many times, as an instructor. If you could not describe the airport, he refused to credit that cross country.

Many more that I have forgotten.

Other of his students were offended by his over and above requests, and fought him, taking longer to get the proficiency they needed, and were less proficient than those of us that went for superior training.
 
Kudo's to Gary Ward for making his first solo cross country without GPS etc., flying by visual information is a skill needed for when the bucket of digital data the modern pilot sticks his head in fails.

I do believe in the best technology, I flew in a plane with dual VORs, LORAN, and GPS, with either a sectional or L chart on my lap. I used them all. I have had just one complete electrical failure, and it was stress free, just turned 180, and flew to the last no tower airport that I had passed. There was a circle around it, with the time that I had passed.
 
Matthew said:
On my student xc I stopped and picked up a business card off the FBO counter. Didn’t have to, but wanted a souvenir. One had the line guy’s name and his title, “Refueling Engineer”.
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My buddy who is a 40 year aviator does that, grabs a card if he can at every FBO he stops at. I was with him a couple years ago when we landed at his last public airport in Indiana. Only took him 40 years to land at every airport. I got to be with him for the last 20 or so.
 
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Gary Ward said:
My buddy who is 40 year aviator does that, grabs a card if he can at every FBO he stops at. I was with him a couple years ago when we landed at his last public airport in Indiana. He is a 21 year Captain now and only took him 40 years to land at every airport and I got to be with him for the last 20 or so.
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He should have lived in Delaware - I landed at every public-use airport there some years ago, only took me about 2 hours. And I believe that included stopping for lunch.
 
I just want to know how people remember what they were directed to do on their long cross countries 20, 30 and 40 years ago?

I'm serious. Do people actually remember details like this so long ago? I can't even remember my first solo in 1987, much less any direction a CFI might have given me about any flight during that time.

Maybe my mental decline is worse than I thought....
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
I soloed in July 1968 and can only remember thinking I got up here by myself and I have to get back down by myself. I don't recall any other details at all.
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All I remember was on downwind, reaching over and marveling that there is no one in that other front seat. :D

Other than that, a few landings. I don't remember how many. I seem to recall 10 for my T-37 first solo.
 
Change thread to “Fake News”

There are the FAA requirements
Then your club / schools / instructor requirements
Then insurance requirements
Then your personal minimums

So you kind of need to follow all of those.
 
I know it was common at one time. I remember being asked after I made the first stop on my first solo cross country whether I needed my logbook signed (Thanks, but no).

just checked my copy of Part 20 of the 1956 CAR and can't find a signature requirement for the student cross countries. Same for my copy of the 1973 Part 61. Of course, I could have missed something. Or maybe there was something earlier or between, but to those who insist that it was "required" by the FAA, put up or shut up :D

Edit: I think I found it. The 1940 CAR Part 20 includes this (my emphasis):

...applicant shall have logged at least 5 hours of cross-country flying of which at least 3 hours shall be solo, which shall include at least one flight over a course of not less than 50 miles with at least two full-stop landings at different points on such course. Such experience shall be certified to by some person, other than the applicant, having direct knowledge thereof...​

That may be where it came from. As I said earlier, some things die hard.
 
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geezer said:
Your instructor may see skills that need more practice, and designed this flight to give more exposure to advance the quality of your training. Tailored to your best outcome.

Or he may be copying his own PPL training.

Or, he may be a controlling person.

You can pick any of the above, but picking the first is the wise choice, it will make a better relationship with him, and that always improves learning outcomes.


My instructor repeatedly asked/required me to do things that were beyond the FAR's because they would make me a better pilot.

Short field takeoff from grass fields, "You do these under the worst conditions, you do not need this at long or paved strips". Exactly right.
That also gave me a number of grass landings endorsed by a CFI, to satisfy our insurance rules to fly to grass strips near relatives.

PAR approaches to about 20 feet, night, under the hood. Not needed for PPL, but a last resort if I ever got trapped on top (Never did, good weather briefs, and willing to fly a different day).

He required all solo cross countries be well longer than FAR's, the point of CC's is to learn to fly where you have never been.

Signatures in the log removed the chance that the Examiner asked you to describe in detail some of the airports you claimed to have flown to solo, to see if you had been there. He had been to every airport within several hundred miles many times, as an instructor. If you could not describe the airport, he refused to credit that cross country.

Many more that I have forgotten.

Other of his students were offended by his over and above requests, and fought him, taking longer to get the proficiency they needed, and were less proficient than those of us that went for superior training.
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I’m interesting to learning more about PAR approaches. Is this requested from tower or approach, and does every airport have this option?
 
midlifeflyer said:
I know it was common at one time. I remember being asked after I made the first stop on my first solo cross country whether I needed my logbook signed (Thanks, but no).

just checked my copy of Part 20 of the 1956 CAR and can't find a signature requirement for the student cross countries. Same for my copy of the 1973 Part 61. Of course, I could have missed something. Or maybe there was something earlier or between, but to those who insist that it was "required" by the FAA, put up or shut up :D

Edit: I think I found it. The 1940 CAR Part 20 includes this (my emphasis):

...applicant shall have logged at least 5 hours of cross-country flying of which at least 3 hours shall be solo, which shall include at least one flight over a course of not less than 50 miles with at least two full-stop landings at different points on such course. Such experience shall be certified to by some person, other than the applicant, having direct knowledge thereof...​

That may be where it came from. As I said earlier, some things die hard.
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Good find! So the requirement was phased out sometime between 1940 and 1956 (with the caveats you mention). I can't imagine we have too many pilots on here who got their Private before 1956.

Yes, like "over square", some things are really latched onto!
 
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