Does insurance give breaks, moving up to twin from similar single engine frame

alaskan9974

alaskan9974

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alaskan9974
Looking at upgrading to a multi, I fly a lot of night and long distance XC and would like the redundancy of a twin. Does insurance care if I am moving up to a similar type say Seneca or B58 with considerable time in a Six and Bo, or should I skip those and go to a cabin class if there isn’t any real break. I am partial to the Senecas as most are Fiki and have a bigger interior.

I have only flown in icing conditions with TKS equipped turbine aircraft and wouldn’t want to be in any light twin in icing, other then using the boots as an aid to get myself out of potential icing, unless I am underestimating the FIKI equipped Senecas I am seeing for sale.
 
alaskan9974 said:
Looking at upgrading to a multi, I fly a lot of night and long distance XC and would like the redundancy of a twin. Does insurance care if I am moving up to a similar type say Seneca or B58 with considerable time in a Six and Bo, or should I skip those and go to a cabin class if there isn’t any real break.
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After years and years of study on this particular subject, I can give you the absolutely, positively definitive answer, which is:

Maybe.

Like many things in aviation insurance, it seems to be a bit cyclical. Call and get quotes.
alaskan9974 said:
I have only flown in icing conditions with TKS equipped turbine aircraft and wouldn’t want to be in any light twin in icing, other then using the boots as an aid to get myself out of potential icing, unless I am underestimating the FIKI equipped Senecas I am seeing for sale.
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Paging @bbchien...
 
@NealRomeoGolf

I think hull value, seat number, and weight are the driving factors. "How many people can you kill if you crash it?" Never priced insuring a cabin class twin, but i know they're expensive. Neal just moved from a Lance to a Seneca, so he might have a good perspective for you.
 
They want twin time, full stop. I had 500 hours in a retract PA32 and moved to a PA34. Only had 2 insurance companies that would touch me since I only had 7 hours of multi. First year for me was $10,000. Need 25 hours dual before I can solo. 5 of those hours must be under the hood.

If you wait until September I can tell you what year 2 is. I've got 22 hours in the Seneca now. Almost have my freedom back.
 
Jim K said:
...Neal just moved from a Lance to a Seneca, so he might have a good perspective for you.
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eh, disagree. while I don't have data to back it up, I don't think most people are buying a twin with no multi rating causing insurance, if you can even get it, to be astronomical. vastly different than if you had your multi and a bunch of twin time, methinks.
 
eman1200 said:
eh, disagree. while I don't have data to back it up, I don't think most people are buying a twin with no multi rating causing insurance, if you can even get it, to be astronomical. vastly different than if you had your multi and a bunch of twin time, methinks.
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The OP is silent as to any twin time. I agree that if he doesn't have significant twin time, insurance will be unobtainable in anything bigger than Seneca/Baron/310.

Multi time is so expensive and hard to find if you have to rent it (at least around here). I totally understand the approach of buying the twin first and getting rated in it. Seminole/Twin Commanche might even be worth considering as short term time builders.
 
I suspect retract is a factor in addition to twin time. If I ever transition, I’ll make sure I have >100 retract and at least 25 in type before I apply.

I love the Current plane so much though that I don’t necessarily plan to upgrade


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It has been eye opening flying a twin with counter rotating props versus the one with a critical engine. I'll take my CRs all day every day. It's a lot harder for this one to bite you. But I promise not to get complacent.
 
Jim K said:
The OP is silent as to any twin time. I agree that if he doesn't have significant twin time, insurance will be unobtainable in anything bigger than Seneca/Baron/310.

Multi time is so expensive and hard to find if you have to rent it (at least around here). I totally understand the approach of buying the twin first and getting rated in it. Seminole/Twin Commanche might even be worth considering as short term time builders.
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Yes multi rated, low time in twins was hoping to build in whichever plane I found using dual versus renting. Haven’t quoted for a light twin only a pa-31 last year. With an instructor it had good climb on one engine, however we were empty save for full fuel.

Quote at that time was 15k and needed 100hr time in type and was limited to dual until that mark which I was ok with, passed on it after a prebuy found undisclosed and pricey issues. Just renewed my insurance, will ask my broker his thoughts on moving up. Window shopping this point and to be honest insurance is one of the cheapest of the expensive costs of aviation, I fly 6-700 hours per year. Just asked thinking it was an easy question given similar airframes and systems but I guess not.
 
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alaskan9974 said:
Yes multi rated, low time in twins was hoping to build in whichever plane I found using dual versus renting. Haven’t quoted for a light twin only a pa-31 last year. With an instructor it had good climb on one engine, however we were empty save for full fuel.

Quote at that time was 15k and needed 100hr time in type and was limited to dual until that mark which I was ok with, passed on it after a prebuy found undisclosed and pricey issues. Just renewed my insurance, will ask my broker his thoughts on moving up. Window shopping this point and to be honest insurance is one of the cheapest of the expensive costs of aviation, I fly 6-700 hours per year. Just asked thinking it was an easy question given similar airframes and systems but I guess not.
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The trickiest part for me was getting the underwriter to sign of on my MEI for my training. They wanted someone with a bunch of Seneca time. I asked that my 3000 hour multi instructor (that's 3000 hours of multi...not total time) with no Seneca time be named specifically and they let us do that. Where I live, there aren't many options (read: none) for multi instructors except for the one I have. It would've been a pain (and expensive) to have to fly someone in every time I wanted to train.
 
MIFlyer said:
I suspect retract is a factor in addition to twin time. If I ever transition, I’ll make sure I have >100 retract and at least 25 in type before I apply.

I love the Current plane so much though that I don’t necessarily plan to upgrade


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I think this is right. I had no problem getting insurance in a Seneca with a ME rating but only 30 ME. I had a bunch of RG which made them happy. No dual or solo required.

Mostly I think it’s random.
 
jbarrass said:
I think this is right. I had no problem getting insurance in a Seneca with a ME rating but only 30 ME. I had a bunch of RG which made them happy. No dual or solo required.

Mostly I think it’s random.
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Was that recent?
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
The trickiest part for me was getting the underwriter to sign of on my MEI for my training. They wanted someone with a bunch of Seneca time. I asked that my 3000 hour multi instructor (that's 3000 hours of multi...not total time) with no Seneca time be named specifically and they let us do that. Where I live, there aren't many options (read: none) for multi instructors except for the one I have. It would've been a pain (and expensive) to have to fly someone in every time I wanted to train.
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This is what I was afraid of, there’s lots of Navajo drivers in Alaska. Not so much Seneca or Baron MEIs, I’d hate to be stuck downstates having to do laps vs flying out of a home airport doing trips worthwhile while building time.
 
jbarrass said:
Mostly I think it’s random.
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This. Sometimes it’s the individual underwriter who reviews the file.

I’m not in the twin world but I had an insurance encounter that still has me shaking my head. I was given access to an Ovation. Although much is shared, the M20R is a different character from the M20C thru J I had time in, and not only the 30 or so KT speed increase. In an effort to minimize the expected dual requirement, I listed my other Mooney time and a A36 Bonanza time (same engine).

Insurance came back with good to go with zero time in type. I thought the underwriter was nuts.

As it turned out, renewal was only months away, during which I hadn’t had a chance to fly it. Renewal underwriter required 2 hours dual.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I’m not in the twin world but I had an insurance encounter that still has me shaking my head. I was given access to an Ovation. Although much is shared, the M20R is a different character from the M20C thru J I had time in, and not only the 30 or so KT speed increase. In an effort to minimize the expected dual requirement, I listed my other Mooney time and a A36 Bonanza time (same engine).

Insurance came back with good to go with zero time in type. I thought the underwriter was nuts.

As it turned out, renewal was only months away, during which I hadn’t had a chance to fly it. Renewal underwriter required 2 hours dual.
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I dunno. I fly an Ovation, and knowing what I know, I'd have insured you in it too, given that you had plenty of Mooney time and plenty of time in planes with the bigger engine.

When I got into mine, I had (looking) Comm/ASMEL, 975 TT, 88 retract, 491 high performance (mostly 182), and one hour in an M20J. My requirement was "a checkout with a CFI" with no minimum time. I didn't set out for home until I got both a BFR and an IPC signed off in the plane, but that was my standard, not theirs.

It's not *that* different than any other normally aspirated Mooney except for the longer/heavier nose with the big engine which probably changes the landings a bit.

FWIW, the OPW on my insurance is and has always been 750TT, 100 retract, and 25 in type. I would imagine that with all your Mooney time plus being a CFI, they figured you were a pretty safe bet.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
It's not *that* different than any other normally aspirated Mooney except for the longer/heavier nose with the big engine which probably changes the landings a bit.
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My perspective is that the landings change more than "a bit." The longer nose and bigger engine are the smaller part of it. A 182 or even a T-Tail Arrow feels more nose-heavy. The bigger piece to me is that the airplane sits 5° nose-high. That means a C or J or even A36 landing picture will result in the nosewheel touching down first. Even the owner, who previously owned a K (and has far more time than I), had trouble with them at first. We flew together before I was added and found the solution that worked for him.

Even knowing me personally :D I would have required some dual for someone with zero Ovation time in type. Yes, my "transition," such as it was, was a non-event. And while I do expect some consideration of my related experience - which is why I listed it - I wasn't expecting zero time in type to pass scrutiny.
 
Insurance goes through cycles like much of everything else. When I started flying twins (late 2008/early 2009) the market was not great, similar to what it is now. I was fortunate enough that my instructor had thousands of hours in the exact aircraft type (and several hundred in the exact specific airplane) I learned in. Then it went through a period where basically anyone could get insured in any upgrade, and people were going straight from an SR22 to a 421, which is a really bad idea. We're now back in a more stringent cycle, which is annoying for those transitioning upwards but it just is something you have to deal with.

Basically, your first year insurance wise and the first part of the transition will suck. After that, it does get better. They want multi time. Retract time helps as well, but multi time is the big thing. Something with no turbos or pressurization for your first plane does help lower premiums some (mostly a low hull value helps there, but that's harder these days), but you're a high premium the first year because you're a high risk. It's that second engine that's the part that adds risk because you have no experience with it when things go wrong, it's a lot less about the airframe itself.

But, it does get better. By the time I got to the MU-2, insurance was a non-event, but I had around 2500 hours of multi time including cabin class and turbine, so there was a good case that I'd make a successful transition. Really, every transition after the Aztec was pretty easy. The Navajo they wanted 50 hours of dual when I transitioned to that (despite having 1,000 hours of multi time by that point - that was in a particularly rough period of insurance), but when I bought the 414 they just wanted me to get an initial at an approved training facility and that was all. The funny part with that was that they let me do the ferry flight on a plane that'd been sitting for 6-10 years and only flown 100 hours this century (this was in 2016, so a lot of sitting) with zero training and zero 414 (or 400 series Twin Cessna) time at all.

The best thing you can do is fly the pants off of whatever twin you buy. It'll be good for your proficiency and then you'll have an easier time on year 2 and beyond.
 
they do give some credit - but its mot along the requirements than say financial. I moved from the P210 (pressurized) to the 421C and while some said the 421 would be difficult to insure plane with 50 hours on the clock a few years back - the insurance company did give credit that I already had my high altitude/complex/high performance and had several hundred hours in a pressurized aircraft. So I dont think its "financial" per se - but more that you have a better chance of getting insurance without more onerouos terms - like maybe 10 or 15 hours instead of 50 after initial training type of thing.
 
Anthem said:
they do give some credit - but its mot along the requirements than say financial. I moved from the P210 (pressurized) to the 421C and while some said the 421 would be difficult to insure plane with 50 hours on the clock a few years back - the insurance company did give credit that I already had my high altitude/complex/high performance and had several hundred hours in a pressurized aircraft. So I dont think its "financial" per se - but more that you have a better chance of getting insurance without more onerouos terms - like maybe 10 or 15 hours instead of 50 after initial training type of thing.
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It seems like more underwriters will offer. When I want with almost no retract time to get in the Bonanza, only a few people would touch me. I expect at renewal with 50+ hours of retract that most of the underwriters will offer me coverage which will likely be cheaper since i'll have multiple underwriters to compare to.
 
Could you just fly it like 50 hours the first month, uninsured, and then insure it the next month with that experience counted?
 
mandm said:
Could you just fly it like 50 hours the first month, uninsured, and then insure it the next month with that experience counted?
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You can do better than that - Insure it in spite of the cost, fly it 50 hours the first month, cancel that policy and get a new one with that experience counted.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
You can do better than that - Insure it in spite of the cost, fly it 50 hours the first month, cancel that policy and get a new one with that experience counted.
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Maybe. I'd definitely ask the provider. Whether cancellation makes financial sense depends on the policy. Most of the aviation policies I've seen do not have pro-rated cancellation but have a significant portion of the annual premium earned early. Early cancellation might not be all that helpful.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Maybe. I'd definitely ask the provider. Whether cancellation makes financial sense depends on the policy. Most of the aviation policies I've seen do not have pro-rated cancellation but have a significant portion of the annual premium earned early. Early cancellation might not be all that helpful.
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Yeah I recall that being the case as well.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
You can do better than that - Insure it in spite of the cost, fly it 50 hours the first month, cancel that policy and get a new one with that experience counted.
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also, the highest risk factor is probably going to be the first 50 hours of flying and where you probably want to be protected. I think its a bit foolish to skip out on the first 50 hours of a new to you certificate/license and flying. . .
 
mandm said:
Could you just fly it like 50 hours the first month, uninsured, and then insure it the next month with that experience counted?
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This is the way a lot of people have handled the need to get 50 hours in type before they could be insured.

Whether you want to do that or not is a personal risk assessment, but there’s plenty of people flying around either completely self insured or liability only. Not something I’ve ever done but I’ve known (and know) people who find that risk acceptable.
 
Ted said:
but there’s plenty of people flying around either completely self insured or liability only. Not something I’ve ever done but I’ve known (and know) people who find that risk acceptable.
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and lets define this for what it is. There is a significant difference between "self insured" and "naked". Self insured implies that you are putting what you would pay as premium in to some sort of "fund" that you control/invest/sit on. And that helps to either pay or offset said rainy day. That is "self insuring". . . Flying naked without actually putting that aside is not self insuring. Now whether you can stroke a check or handle that potential exposure, or liability - thats up to you. but a lot of people are deluding themselves claiming they are "self insuring" when in reality that couldnt be further from the truth. You wouldnt let a company to offer health insurance if they were "self insuring" and not paying in any premiums either. . .
 
Spoke to the insurance today. No real breaks and he even admitted that depending on which underwriter returns quotes I might be due 25 hours time in type or just a simple checkout.

Didn’t have a tail number to get an exact quote on but the ranges he gave were surprisingly reasonable, under 5k a year.

Still looking at twins but also eyeing a nice 185f that would be a comfortable step up from my 170.
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
They want twin time, full stop. I had 500 hours in a retract PA32 and moved to a PA34. Only had 2 insurance companies that would touch me since I only had 7 hours of multi. First year for me was $10,000. Need 25 hours dual before I can solo. 5 of those hours must be under the hood.

If you wait until September I can tell you what year 2 is. I've got 22 hours in the Seneca now. Almost have my freedom back.
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same here- 2nd year dropped from 10k to 8k after 120h multi/Seneca time.
 
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