Does ATC know if you are IR'ed?

[AlphaMike]

This is a question related to the plane that crashed in South Lyon MI last Saturday. It looks like the pilot was flying VFR back to MI from GA. It appears he picked up an IFR clearance somewhere over Ohio. If you look the pilot up on the FAA it does not show him as having an IR. My question is, does ATC check to see if the pilot is IR before they issue the clearance?

Link to the discussion
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/south-lyon-michigan-y47-comanche-crash.130066/

Thanks

 

[gsengle]

This is a question related to the plane that crashed in South Lyon MI last Saturday. It looks like the pilot was flying VFR back to MI from GA. It appears he picked up an IFR clearance somewhere over Ohio. If you look the pilot up on the FAA it does not show him as having an IR. My question is, does ATC check to see if the pilot is IR before they issue the clearance?

Link to the discussion
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/south-lyon-michigan-y47-comanche-crash.130066/

Thanks

They may ask you. But no they have no idea who the pilot is, so they can’t know and can’t know if you lie.


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[RyanB]

No they don’t.

 

[Timbeck2]

Nope. We trust you, until we don't.

 

[brcase]

I have non IR rated pilots pick up IFR clearances all the time(training). If am the legal acting pilot command in the right seat, ATC has no way to know I am there as the acting/legal pilot in command, unless I tell them.

Now they may get suspicious if you don’t know things and IR pilot should know.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[AlphaMike]

I have non IR rated pilots pick up IFR clearances all the time(training). If am the legal acting pilot command in the right seat, ATC has no way to know I am there as the acting/legal pilot in command, unless I tell them.

Now they may get suspicious if you don’t know things and IR pilot should know.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

During my IFR training I was never able to do an actual pop up (tried a couple times). When we filed an IFR flight plan we used my CFII's cert number. I always assumed someone was checking if you had the rating when you filed with FS, but I guess it makes since if your just doing a pop up. I never filed with my cert number until I got my IR.

 

[gsengle]

During my IFR training I was never able to do an actual pop up (tried a couple times). When we filed an IFR flight plan we used my CFII's cert number. I always assumed someone was checking if you had the rating when you filed with FS, but I guess it makes since if your just doing a pop up. I never filed with my cert number until I got my IR.

I don’t recall ever using cert number to file anything...


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[AlphaMike]

I don’t recall ever using cert number to file anything...


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If you file with ForeFlight it asks for it. Not sure about other ways? I haven't filed any other way since my first few lessons over a year ago.

 

[gsengle]

If you file with ForeFlight it asks for it. Not sure about other ways? I haven't filed any other way since my first few lessons over a year ago.

Flight service website has pilot in command as an optional field. 1800wxbrief.com

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[AlphaMike]

Flight service website has pilot in command as an optional field. 1800wxbrief.com

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You know what, it's probably optional on FF too. I guess I never tried without filling that in.
Thanks!

 

[nrm2430]

I’m not IR yet but trying to go somewhere under IFR conditions without the rating and without being in training seems like it’s a lot more trouble than it’s worth. But people never cease to amaze me so I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s actually been done quite often. If you can think it, somebody has at least tried it...

 

[Llewtrah381]

I’m not IR yet but trying to go somewhere under IFR conditions without the rating and without being in training seems like it’s a lot more trouble than it’s worth. But people never cease to amaze me so I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s actually been done quite often. If you can think it, somebody has at least tried it...

At least they’re talking to someone and being “controlled”. What REALLY amazes me is to be flying IFR legally and have “VFR” traffic with you in IMC. I’m not talking about VFR on Top - I mean people popping in and out of cloud tops. Kinda disconcerting when ATC calls out traffic nearby and you know you can’t see them, so they can’t see you.

Yep - people never cease to amaze me with a “rules are for other people” approach...

 

[Juliet Hotel]

My question is, does ATC check to see if the pilot is IR before they issue the clearance?

They do not. If a pilot asks for a clearance, they will give it if they are able. Its not their job to police whether or not the pilot asking for the clearance is legal to fly that clearance.

 

[asicer]

I’m not IR yet but trying to go somewhere under IFR conditions without the rating and without being in training seems like it’s a lot more trouble than it’s worth. But people never cease to amaze me so I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s actually been done quite often. If you can think it, somebody has at least tried it...

What seems to happen from time to time is that someone is going somewhere VFR and the weather unexpectedly closes in. ATC offers a popup clearance and the VFR pilot, being mission-minded, accepts it.

 

[RussR]

When we filed an IFR flight plan we used my CFII's cert number. I always assumed someone was checking if you had the rating when you filed with FS,

Having been a government employee for most of my working life, this makes me chuckle (not at you, just the idea). The level of integration with various systems across various agencies that this would require, and the level and type of training required for the FSS personnel, means there's no chance it would ever actually happen.

 

[gsengle]

They do not. If a pilot asks for a clearance, they will give it if they are able. Its not their job to police whether or not the pilot asking for the clearance is legal to fly that clearance.

They regularly get a verbal confirmation for a pop up clearance, “please confirm you are IFR capable and equipped” or similar. Cracked me up once when flying for a well known 135 commuter airline and got that question. That operation flew IFR constantly and 135 scheduled service requires pic to have an atp. I think the question was just reflexive.


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[Pugs]

If you file with ForeFlight it asks for it. Not sure about other ways? I haven't filed any other way since my first few lessons over a year ago.

Optional. I put name/phone/e-mail as all figuring that's what they need to get ahold of me.

 

[nrm2430]

What seems to happen from time to time is that someone is going somewhere VFR and the weather unexpectedly closes in. ATC offers a popup clearance and the VFR pilot, being mission-minded, accepts it.

I can definitely see that happening more than someone trying to get it from the ground. I’m more cautious than those with “get-there-itis” & I won’t hesitate to land or not even chance a flight if VFR is questionable en route. I guess my question is why someone taking a pop up would leave themselves open to getting instructions or told to fly an approach & having no clue how. That part is probably more rare but still, it’s probably happened before.

 

[asicer]

I guess my question is why someone taking a pop up would leave themselves open to getting instructions or told to fly an approach & having no clue how. That part is probably more rare but still, it’s probably happened before.

Perhaps the thinking is "I just need to get through this little patch of IMC and it's much better on the other side"? Or they're under the impression that they need to accept the pop up to get help finding VMC?

 

[Witmo]

I'd wager there are a lot of non-current IR pilots who occasionally pick up a clearance they are not legal to accept.

 

[Timbeck2]

I'd wager there are a lot of non-current IR pilots who occasionally pick up a clearance they are not legal to accept.

 

[nrm2430]

Perhaps the thinking is "I just need to get through this little patch of IMC and it's much better on the other side"? Or they're under the impression that they need to accept the pop up to get help finding VMC?

Could be. Would be nice to hear from someone who’s done it but who would admit to that...

 

[jsstevens]

They regularly get a verbal confirmation for a pop up clearance, “please confirm you are IFR capable and equipped” or similar. Cracked me up once when flying for a well known 135 commuter airline and got that question. That operation flew IFR constantly and 135 scheduled service requires pic to have an atp. I think the question was just reflexive.


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When the CFII I was flying with asked for a pop-up clearance a few times he always included that verbiage in the request. Presumably so it was on the tape for them and saved them having to ask. "12345 is IFR certified and equipped" is what I remember. But it's been a few years.

 

[Palmpilot]

What seems to happen from time to time is that someone is going somewhere VFR and the weather unexpectedly closes in. ATC offers a popup clearance and the VFR pilot, being mission-minded, accepts it.

I knew someone who died doing that, although it was more than mere IMC; the weather was bad enough to keep some IFR pilots out of the sky in that area as well. (I don't know whether ATC offered the popup or whether it was requested by the pilot.)

 

[Palmpilot]

They regularly get a verbal confirmation for a pop up clearance, “please confirm you are IFR capable and equipped” or similar. Cracked me up once when flying for a well known 135 commuter airline and got that question. That operation flew IFR constantly and 135 scheduled service requires pic to have an atp. I think the question was just reflexive.

I never got asked that question. Maybe it varies by region.

 

[PaulS]

I'd wager there are a lot of non-current IR pilots who occasionally pick up a clearance they are not legal to accept.

I would wager you are correct. Probably why the FAA rules are so suffocating.

 

[IK04]

They regularly get a verbal confirmation for a pop up clearance, “please confirm you are IFR capable and equipped” or similar.

Bay Approach (now Norcal) always asked whenever a popup was requested. Maybe they knew the tail number was flown by many different pilots?

 

[Palmpilot]

Bay Approach (now Norcal) always asked whenever a popup was requested. Maybe they knew the tail number was flown by many different pilots?

They didn't usually ask me that. It's been a long time since I've done it though. (I can't be 100% sure that it was never.)

 

[gsengle]

They didn't usually ask me that. It's been a long time since I've done it though. (I can't be 100% sure that it was never.)

It’s only when it’s a pop up. In the northeast if a GA airplane they seem to ask 80% of the time.


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[bflynn]

I've had them ask indirectly - N1234, how's the weather there?

"Oh, awful, heavy rain, I can hardly see anything." is not a good answer even if its true. For me it was light rain and I still had at least 5 miles visibility.

 

[luvflyin]

I'd wager there are a lot of non-current IR pilots who occasionally pick up a clearance they are not legal to accept.

No bet from me. I know of many who do it. Getting On Top Climbs to cancel with no intent of ever flying enroute or doing an approach is a way of life in Southern California.

 

[flyingron]

They regularly get a verbal confirmation for a pop up clearance, “please confirm you are IFR capable and equipped” or similar

Years ago we were headed to Oshksoh a few days before the NOTAM went into effect. I got about abeam Milwaukee when I realized that OSH was under a 800 OVC. I was getting flight following VFR at the time from MKE.

27K: Looks like Oshkosh is IFR. Can I get a clearance from you or do I have to go file with FSS.
MKE: (audible sigh, like it's starting already). Are you rated and equipped?
27K: Affirmative.
MKE: OK, cleared direct OSH, expect the VOR 9 approach.
27K: How about RNAV 9?
MKE: OK, expect that.

 

[Wagondriver]

I know a guy who flew instrument flight plans for nearly 20 years, he never had an instrument rating.
He was found out when he had an engine out and flipped it on it’s lid. He was also operation an illegal 135 operation.

I was on a rafting trip and one of the guys on the trip had just gotten out of prison. About day 3 of the trip I asked what he was in prison for. He was a drug dealer on a large scale. He flew King Airs around the country delivering drugs. He never even had a PPL! I couldn’t help but admire his entrepreneurial ambition.

You can do lots of illegal stuff, until you can’t!

 

[Daleandee]

What seems to happen from time to time is that someone is going somewhere VFR and the weather unexpectedly closes in. ATC offers a popup clearance and the VFR pilot, being mission-minded, accepts it.

Yulp ... and that's exactly what happened here at the 7:00 minute mark. (I'm certain many have seen this Air Safety video). The result is tragic and chilling:

 

[somorris]

I know a guy who flew instrument flight plans for nearly 20 years, he never had an instrument rating.
He was found out when he had an engine out and flipped it on it’s lid. He was also operation an illegal 135 operation.

I was on a rafting trip and one of the guys on the trip had just gotten out of prison. About day 3 of the trip I asked what he was in prison for. He was a drug dealer on a large scale. He flew King Airs around the country delivering drugs. He never even had a PPL! I couldn’t help but admire his entrepreneurial ambition.

You can do lots of illegal stuff, until you can’t!

Several years ago, I read about a guy (he had an accident) who was using a really nice airplane with a capable autopilot to file and fly IFR. He was not rated (but the airplane was!).

 

[Palmpilot]

Yulp ... and that's exactly what happened here at the 7:00 minute mark. (I'm certain many have seen this Air Safety video). The result is tragic and chilling:

That's the case I was talking about. He was a member of my CAP squadron, but I had not known him for very long, and I had no idea that he was prone to let get-there-itis affect him to such a degree.

 

[Doug Reid]

You are on the honor system. Everything is great until you screw up.

 

[NoHeat]

Flight service website has pilot in command as an optional field. 1800wxbrief.com

I wonder ... is there any reason that it's desirable to enter the pilot's name? Or not to?

 

[gsengle]

I wonder ... is there any reason that it's desirable to enter the pilot's name? Or not to?

Do something bad they’ll find you anyway. Me I want em to be able to find me if I forget to cancel or in case of emergency...


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[ytodd]

If you file with ForeFlight it asks for it. Not sure about other ways? I haven't filed any other way since my first few lessons over a year ago.

optional, I have never given my cert #