Does ATC know if you are IR'ed?

Palmpilot said:
I never got asked that question. Maybe it varies by region. :dunno:
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It’s in the National order. Just depends on if the controller thinks you are having weather difficulties or not.

10-2-8
a. If a VFR aircraft requests radar assistance when it encounters or is about to encounter IFR weather conditions, ask the pilot if he/she is qualified for and capable of conducting IFR flight.
b. If the pilot states he/she is qualified for and capable of IFR flight, request him/her to file an IFR flight plan and then issue clearance to destination airport, as appropriate.

I do this semi-regularly and have never been sent off to file. When I’m controlling I don’t send them off either and just input it at the scope. Some (seems like center folks) are told that you need to send them off to have all the emergency info on file (i.e. fuel, SOB, etc).
 
Radar Contact said:
It’s in the National order. Just depends on if the controller thinks you are having weather difficulties or not.

10-2-8
a. If a VFR aircraft requests radar assistance when it encounters or is about to encounter IFR weather conditions, ask the pilot if he/she is qualified for and capable of conducting IFR flight.
b. If the pilot states he/she is qualified for and capable of IFR flight, request him/her to file an IFR flight plan and then issue clearance to destination airport, as appropriate.

I do this semi-regularly and have never been sent off to file. When I’m controlling I don’t send them off either and just input it at the scope. Some (seems like center folks) are told that you need to send them off to have all the emergency info on file (i.e. fuel, SOB, etc).
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I think the last time I did it was in the summer of 2018 on the Oregon coast. I had been receiving VFR advisories from Seattle Center, and told them that the weather was deteriorating and I would need an IFR clearance unless I turned back. This was granted with no questions regarding my qualifications.
 
Does ATC know if someone is past due for their BFR? We all fly on the honor system. 99.5% of us fly legally and follow the rules. It’s that other percentage that makes us all look bad.
 
Palmpilot said:
I never got asked that question. Maybe it varies by region. :dunno:
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In Palm beach I was asked, the conditions were below minimums (fog), it took 3 approaches. ATC seemed concerned, I was happy to get the practice.
 
TommyG said:
Does ATC know if someone is past due for their BFR? We all fly on the honor system. 99.5% of us fly legally and follow the rules. It’s that other percentage that makes us all look bad.
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I suppose you missed the part where they don’t know who you are. ATC isn’t FAA enforcement.


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When you take your plane in for an annual inspection, have you ever verified your mechanic has an A&P/IA...do you ever go online to see that your instructor has his CFII..I bet not. Most people trust that they are dealing with reputable individuals...not to say abuse does not occur.
 
AlphaMike said:
This is a question related to the plane that crashed in South Lyon MI last Saturday. It looks like the pilot was flying VFR back to MI from GA. It appears he picked up an IFR clearance somewhere over Ohio. If you look the pilot up on the FAA it does not show him as having an IR. My question is, does ATC check to see if the pilot is IR before they issue the clearance?

Link to the discussion
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/south-lyon-michigan-y47-comanche-crash.130066/

Thanks
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Fifty years ago my pop told me that if someone was a decent pilot and followed all of the rules, they could fly a lifetime without every interacting with the FAA. Including bothering to get any ratings. At all. He told me this because a semi-famous local pilot learned to fly from his dad, and never had so much as a student ticket.
The one-and-only time I had to "air file" I wasn't asked, either, but that was a couple of decades ago.
 
There was probably some luck involved. It took many years before I was ramp-checked, but it eventually did happen.
 
Palmpilot said:
There was probably some luck involved. It took many years before I was ramp-checked, but it eventually did happen.
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I too have only been ramp checked once. It was when I landed at the airport to meet the DPE for my PPL check ride. I don't know if the DPE set that up or not, but I was defiantly a little nervous! In the end it was really no big deal.
 
AlphaMike said:
I too have only been ramp checked once. It was when I landed at the airport to meet the DPE for my PPL check ride. I don't know if the DPE set that up or not, but I was defiantly a little nervous! In the end it was really no big deal.
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I don't think it's a good idea to be defiant during a ramp-check! ;)
 
Doug Reid said:
When you take your plane in for an annual inspection, have you ever verified your mechanic has an A&P/IA...do you ever go online to see that your instructor has his CFII..I bet not. Most people trust that they are dealing with reputable individuals...not to say abuse does not occur.
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Well, I do, but I'm weird, and atc would have to be pretty slow to look everyone up on the faa registry lol.

Before I was IR I was twice offered pop up clearances while on flight following. Obviously I was truthful and told them I'd be turning around as I wasn't rated, but it would've been real easy to accept. Now if you weren't trained, it'd be hard to keep up the ruse. I'm curious about what they do with pilots who are on a clearance, but don't know what they're doing. I assume they'd issue a deviation and let the FSDO sort it out?
 
asicer said:
How did it go? What did they check? I assume it was more than whether you were standing on a ramp.
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As far as I can remember... He just checked my SPL and medical then looked at the air worthiness cert, POH and such. We talked for probably 15 min, then I told him I was here to take my check ride.. he shook my hand and told me good luck. That was about it.
 
asicer said:
How did it go? What did they check? I assume it was more than whether you were standing on a ramp.
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When he said he was ramp-checking me, I showed him my pilot and medical certificates, my photo ID, and the registration and airworthiness certificates for the airplane. Everything was cordial. The only problem is that it was at Lancaster, Cal., and the wind was howling. (As always!) Fortunately, the only thing I lost to the wind was a non-essential and easily-replaceable document.

When I told him who I was renting the plane from, he said, "That's a good outfit," which surprised me, because his base in Van Nuys is about 400 miles from where I rented the plane!
 
asicer said:
How did it go? What did they check? I assume it was more than whether you were standing on a ramp.
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He was waiting to see if you would call it a tarmac. Its a trick question.
 
Jim K said:
Well, I do, but I'm weird, and atc would have to be pretty slow to look everyone up on the faa registry lol.

Before I was IR I was twice offered pop up clearances while on flight following. Obviously I was truthful and told them I'd be turning around as I wasn't rated, but it would've been real easy to accept. Now if you weren't trained, it'd be hard to keep up the ruse. I'm curious about what they do with pilots who are on a clearance, but don't know what they're doing. I assume they'd issue a deviation and let the FSDO sort it out?
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you gotta screw up pretty bad to get a number to call, at least around my area. unapproved climb or descent, WAY off course, etc.

I would guess the people who accept a pop up IFR clearance are those who have enough experience to fake it.
 
Radar Contact said:
It’s in the National order. Just depends on if the controller thinks you are having weather difficulties or not.

10-2-8
a. If a VFR aircraft requests radar assistance when it encounters or is about to encounter IFR weather conditions, ask the pilot if he/she is qualified for and capable of conducting IFR flight.
b. If the pilot states he/she is qualified for and capable of IFR flight, request him/her to file an IFR flight plan and then issue clearance to destination airport, as appropriate.

I do this semi-regularly and have never been sent off to file. When I’m controlling I don’t send them off either and just input it at the scope. Some (seems like center folks) are told that you need to send them off to have all the emergency info on file (i.e. fuel, SOB, etc).
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Have you noticed that they don't ask if you are current? Just if you are qualified and capable. :)

On a side note, I did actually hear a controller give an approach "clearance" to a VFR pilot trapped on top in a twin with fuel problems. He tried, but could not hold a simple heading once he entered the cloud deck. All survived the off-airport landing. (I wrote down the tail number and checked about the accident later.)

Tony T.
 
Whoa!!!!! What am I spending all this money on then???
 
thito01 said:
Have you noticed that they don't ask if you are current? Just if you are qualified and capable. :)

On a side note, I did actually hear a controller give an approach "clearance" to a VFR pilot trapped on top in a twin with fuel problems. He tried, but could not hold a simple heading once he entered the cloud deck. All survived the off-airport landing. (I wrote down the tail number and checked about the accident later.)

Tony T.
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That’s because the book doesn’t makes no mention of currency. Some controllers will ask the “qualified and capable” question even without being in a deteriorating weather situation while others don’t. Subjective.

Just like some controllers will ask if you can maintain your own terrain and and obstruction clearance during an IFR pickup below the MVA/MIA with weather being no factor. Subjective.
 
I heard a guy fly into smoke and was given a clearance even though he said the plane was capable, but he was not, sort of. They gave him vectors until he got back out, then a number to call.

I know at least one guy that gets clearances all the time and has no IR. He probably knows more about instrument flying than I do though, and I have the rating.

I’ve also listened to jokers with an IR on the radio that just kinda do mostly what they are told but certainly don’t follow the rules…..I guess to them it’s more of a guideline than a clearance.
 
Arnold said:
Another reason not to use ForeFlight.
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Because you can’t read the little text “optional” on the field, you shouldn’t use foreflight?

To be fair, it’s the opposite. Required fields are marked as required and optional fields have no marking.
 
When I bought my archer, in talking with the two guys who sold it. One remarked how great it was to have an autopilot with a wing leveler. He bragged that when he "flew in the clouds" and it got ahead of him, he could just flip that baby on. I subsequently found out that neither of them was instrument rated but they both repeated that they flew in IMC all the time. They were jerks.
 
Salty said:
I heard a guy fly into smoke and was given a clearance even though he said the plane was capable, but he was not, sort of. They gave him vectors until he got back out, then a number to call.
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I was two weeks shy of my instrument rating check ride, the year was 1979, the aircraft was fairly new Archer, full IFR - which in those days meant dual navcoms, a transponder with mode C and an ADF. Launched in 5 miles vis. for a trip to Buffalo, NY from 6B6 (Stow, MA). The forecast called for a chance of embedded TRW. Ended up telling ATC that I could not maintain VFR. Asked if I was rated and equipped. As I recall I said equipped and almost rated. I was not issued an IFR clearance, but they held my hand for the diversion to Binghamton, NY. Well done ATC. Lesson learned, no flight with limited vis and embedded TRW unless ship equipped with radar.
 
Joe_B1 said:
When I bought my archer, in talking with the two guys who sold it. One remarked how great it was to have an autopilot with a wing leveler. He bragged that when he "flew in the clouds" and it got ahead of him, he could just flip that baby on. I subsequently found out that neither of them was instrument rated but they both repeated that they flew in IMC all the time. They were jerks.
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I'm amazed by the number of pilots you run into like that. When I was pa32 shopping I looked at one that had a 20 year old w&b that was clearly from before a major avionics refit. The owners had no idea. They repeated the old "as long as we can close the doors we fly it". You can get away with a lot in a pa32, but to have never calculated w&b?!

Last fly in I went to, awos was reporting 400' ceilings, which I found to be accurate as I flew the rnav approach. Meanwhile when I switched over to ctaf, there was two RV's flying a "vfr" traffic pattern.
 
Salty said:
Because you can’t read the little text “optional” on the field, you shouldn’t use foreflight?

To be fair, it’s the opposite. Required fields are marked as required and optional fields have no marking.
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The original post didn't say "optional" and I've not used it because it requires Apple device and I hate Apple with a passion. I have done many flights with friends who use Foreflight and it seems rather clunky compared to the product I use.
 
Joe_B1 said:
When I bought my archer, in talking with the two guys who sold it. One remarked how great it was to have an autopilot with a wing leveler. He bragged that when he "flew in the clouds" and it got ahead of him, he could just flip that baby on. I subsequently found out that neither of them was instrument rated but they both repeated that they flew in IMC all the time. They were jerks.
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If only JFK JR. had a working autopilot, or remembered to turn it on. We still don't know what really happened.
 
Arnold said:
If only JFK JR. had a working autopilot, or remembered to turn it on. We still don't know what really happened.
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The NTSB report indicated that the autopilot was not in use at the time of the crash. As a PA32R owner, I have always wondered why he did not at least use the 'fly this heading' or wing-leveler function. He was low-time in type so maybe his instructor did not have time to train him on it's use? It was one of the first things my CFII taught me after I acquired the aircraft. (I was already IR though.)
Tony T.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Nope. We trust you, until we don't.
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Besides, there are lots of instrument-rated pilots that aren't current or competent anyhow.

You have to name the PIC on an instrument plan, but I've never had to provide it in the abbreviated air filed/pop-up one.
Even the name in a filed plan isn't verified for legality.
 
thito01 said:
The NTSB report indicated that the autopilot was not in use at the time of the crash. As a PA32R owner, I have always wondered why he did not at least use the 'fly this heading' or wing-leveler function. He was low-time in type so maybe his instructor did not have time to train him on it's use? It was one of the first things my CFII taught me after I acquired the aircraft. (I was already IR though.)
Tony T.
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I spent a lot of time researching this as I ended up flying into a family reunion in Massachusetts right afterward and I knew the family was going to grill me about it. John-John's biggest problem is a common one with non-rated pilots. It's not that they can't fly on instruments, they just fail to realize that they need to be flying on instruments. Here he is flying up a busy coast line and there's tons of lights and other cues. He gets near to his destination and starts to descend. He now turns out toward the open sea and loses the cues. Given a few more seconds he might have gone on instruments (he was in the middle of that training) or engaged the autopilot, but I suspect he was too low at that point to give him time to come to that realization.

As for me, the second thing I did after I got my autopilot installed was figure out how to use it (and this was a few years before I got my instrument rating).
 
flyingron said:
I spent a lot of time researching this as I ended up flying into a family reunion in Massachusetts right afterward and I knew the family was going to grill me about it. John-John's biggest problem is a common one with non-rated pilots. It's not that they can't fly on instruments, they just fail to realize that they need to be flying on instruments. Here he is flying up a busy coast line and there's tons of lights and other cues. He gets near to his destination and starts to descend. He now turns out toward the open sea and loses the cues. Given a few more seconds he might have gone on instruments (he was in the middle of that training) or engaged the autopilot, but I suspect he was too low at that point to give him time to come to that realization.

As for me, the second thing I did after I got my autopilot installed was figure out how to use it (and this was a few years before I got my instrument rating).
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Jason Crappert might be the worst of the online training people, but this video he did about the jfk Jr crash is pretty good. Iirc he had a broken foot in a boot and could barely get in the plane. He had a number of hours of ifr training, but was struggling. Couple all that with an entitled attitude and it was an accident looking for a place to happen.

ETA just rewatched....he had 3 hours of instrument training and something like 50 total. His cfii offered to go with him and he refused.
 
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AlphaMike said:
If you file with ForeFlight it asks for it. Not sure about other ways? I haven't filed any other way since my first few lessons over a year ago.
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It has a place to enter... it doesn't ask. I leave it blank. I flew a dozen IFR legs filed that way last month. YMMV.
 
Arnold said:
The original post didn't say "optional" and I've not used it because it requires Apple device and I hate Apple with a passion. I have done many flights with friends who use Foreflight and it seems rather clunky compared to the product I use.
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Nobody should use the latest version of Android. I’ve never used it, but it sucks. /sarcasm
 
flyingron said:
I spent a lot of time researching this as I ended up flying into a family reunion in Massachusetts right afterward and I knew the family was going to grill me about it. John-John's biggest problem is a common one with non-rated pilots. It's not that they can't fly on instruments, they just fail to realize that they need to be flying on instruments. Here he is flying up a busy coast line and there's tons of lights and other cues. He gets near to his destination and starts to descend. He now turns out toward the open sea and loses the cues. Given a few more seconds he might have gone on instruments (he was in the middle of that training) or engaged the autopilot, but I suspect he was too low at that point to give him time to come to that realization.

As for me, the second thing I did after I got my autopilot installed was figure out how to use it (and this was a few years before I got my instrument rating).
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The "how it happened" in his situation became instantly obvious flying into NEW one day.

I was instrument rated and very current at the time (IPC the week before) - There was a marine layer and mist at NEW with conditions lose to minimums. NEW was using the ILS, which brings you in over the Lake - the approach lights are effectively in the lake. I flew the ILS as a coupled approach on the autopilot - we broke out just above minimums.... but... the clouds and the color of the lake were identical: were it not for the approach lights it would have been quite hard to tell the difference between lake and sky. Runway quickly became apparent and we landed safely.

When I left that afternoon, I didn't see the plane just landing on the runway until the last minute (and waited until I was sure that he was clear of the runway). Tower cleared me for takeoff and before I left his airspace the tower was advising the next plane inbound that conditions ha d dropped below minimums - that plane diverted to MSY.

Very easy to see how spatial disorientation can set in quickly when you can't tell the difference between sky and water.
 
Jim K said:
Jason Crappert might be the worst of the online training people, but this video he did about the jfk Jr crash is pretty good. Iirc he had a broken foot in a boot and could barely get in the plane. He had a number of hours of ifr training, but was struggling. Couple all that with an entitled attitude and it was an accident looking for a place to happen.

ETA just rewatched....he had 3 hours of instrument training and something like 50 total. His cfii offered to go with him and he refused.
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That's an amazingly thorough analysis of a very long accident chain. The only thing I would quibble with is that he seems to equate a steep spiral with a spin at one point.
 
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