Tarheelpilot
Final Approach
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2010
- Messages
- 7,507
- Location
- North Carolina once again.
- Display Name
Display name:
Tarheelpilot
I agree. I turned 23 during training at airline number one. Very different than coming to it later in life.
Do You Think Airlines Will Ever Pay For Training?
- Thread starter Jason Koiter
- Start date
Tantalum
Final Approach
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2017
- Messages
- 9,250
- Display Name
Display name:
San_Diego_Pilot
As I said, hopefully there's another Tantalum out there in a parallel world now nearly 15 years into a flying career flying big planes on good routes making $$. I'm happy for him, haha, and happy for all of you guys who could make a career out of it. That's awesome
OneCharlieTango
Cleared for Takeoff
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2018
- Messages
- 1,165
- Display Name
Display name:
OneCharlieTango
On the one hand, we have a recent rule saying that FO’s must have 1500 hour ATP’s. OTOH, people talk about single pilot airliners.
In between is what some other countries do, which is to put someone with 250 hours in the right seat. When airliners from those countries crash, PoA and the rest of American pilots go nuts about how stupid it is to have such a newbie in the cockpit, even though the captain may have lots of time.
I don’t think there will ever be single pilot airliners hauling people. There may be zero-pilot airliners or remotely piloted airliners, but there will never be a time when 300 people fly in an airplane with a single pilot up front, who’s responsible for everything that happens.
In between is what some other countries do, which is to put someone with 250 hours in the right seat. When airliners from those countries crash, PoA and the rest of American pilots go nuts about how stupid it is to have such a newbie in the cockpit, even though the captain may have lots of time.
I don’t think there will ever be single pilot airliners hauling people. There may be zero-pilot airliners or remotely piloted airliners, but there will never be a time when 300 people fly in an airplane with a single pilot up front, who’s responsible for everything that happens.
OneCharlieTango
Cleared for Takeoff
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2018
- Messages
- 1,165
- Display Name
Display name:
OneCharlieTango
The railroads have always trained engineers from the ground up. The only reason the airlines haven’t been doing the same thing all along is because they haven’t had to.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
An alternative to that would be a flight crew combined must have X number of hours. Of course, with the way bidding is done for trips, that's pretty much impossible.
5 year old JimK declared he wanted to be an airline pilot. He held on to that dream for a few years, but was repeatedly told by the family of a pilot who was eating Ramen at the regionals that it was a terrible idea. He eventually succumbed to the idea that the path to being an airline pilot was too long, hard, and expensive. Had he continued on that path, he would've been looking for a regional job around 2003. Not sure what it was like then, but iirc it was a pretty decent boom, and there would've been enough time to climb the seniority scale before 2008.
I don't feel too bad for that version of me. He wouldn't have met my wife and had my kids, and he'd be making about the same amount of money. The only thing he'd have over my version is several thousand hours in the air.
Rich Holt
Line Up and Wait
If paying $90k now so that later you can be making $130k+ a year sounds terrible, consider the teacher. They pay about the same amount to get their credentials and, if they're lucky, might top out around $70k after 20 or so years all the while paying for their own continuing education requirements and recertifications. Oh boo hoo, flight training costs a lot of money. Poor pilots.
A medical condition can just as easily take you for most jobs. It is just life. If you want your office to be FL360, you should do whatever it takes to make that happen. It's just money. "Get busy livin, or get busy dyin." Your choice.
A medical condition can just as easily take you for most jobs. It is just life. If you want your office to be FL360, you should do whatever it takes to make that happen. It's just money. "Get busy livin, or get busy dyin." Your choice.
OneCharlieTango
Cleared for Takeoff
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2018
- Messages
- 1,165
- Display Name
Display name:
OneCharlieTango
RE: teachers. One word: tenure. Oh, one more: holidays.
RE: medical disqualifications. I'm an anesthesiologist. Every day, I make decisions and perform procedures that can cure or kill. Right now, I couldn't get a Class I medical.
Justin Brady
Pre-takeoff checklist
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2022
- Messages
- 198
- Display Name
Display name:
SONIC
Care to elaborate?
DesertNomad
Pattern Altitude
Do you think hospitals will ever pay for medical school?
I can’t see the airlines doing this.
I can’t see the airlines doing this.
DesertNomad
Pattern Altitude
there aren’t many places where ordinary people can go to get a discovery train ride or practice operating one.
Rich Holt
Line Up and Wait
What's tenure. I don't think that exists anymore. The contracts in my state are for one year at a time and it is considered an "at-will" position.
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2013
- Messages
- 6,528
- Display Name
Display name:
3G
Sure. You said
I guess you’r referring to the GI Bill, but you could be referring to service academy appointments or ROTC scholarships. Or maybe DoD or state Tuition Assistance programs. Then there were retention tools like MCMEPS to keep the missileers busy and keep them from getting busy in the silos. But the closest would analogy would be the Army’s WOFT program where a qualified person joins, is trained to fly helicopter, and then does that for a career, no college degree required.
What you are trying to make analogous is called a training contract. A company pays for somebody’s training in return for a period of time working for that company as payback and if the employee fails to successfully complete the training or payback period, they are legally obligated to reimburse the company for the training expenses.
There’s a lot of reasons why a major airline isn’t going to pay up front for you to go to college, get your ratings, then close the 1250hr aero experience gap just to become qualified to sit for the ATP and type rating with too much risk that you’ll be a non-revenue producing investment aka loss to the bottom line. And no, there’s nothing special about a college degree that indicates someone possesses the skills and motivation to fly for an airline. The degree ‘requirement’ is nothing but a corporate decision as a way to differentiate candidates/limit applications that will make it past the first stage of the screening process.
Grum.Man
En-Route
I don't really see anything changing with how pilot hiring is done. I think the "shortage" is a little over hyped. Maybe they are short in areas like captains on the regionals, or pilots for small cargo ops but overall they seem to be healthy on the bottom end. The ones that might struggle will be the corporate side or on demand services. Life in the military has gotten so good there aren't a lot of people jumping off that ship that have the turbine time to be a direct entry captain. They certainly don't want to lower the required hours or they will loose the supply of CFI's. I think flight schools will be the ones to make concessions to keep people coming in the door.
GaryM
En-Route
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2020
- Messages
- 2,573
- Location
- Was KMMU, looking at KCOE
- Display Name
Display name:
Gary M
I anticipate single pilot airliners once they are also capable of being remotely piloted, as a backup to the single pilot.
Tantalum
Final Approach
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2017
- Messages
- 9,250
- Display Name
Display name:
San_Diego_Pilot
Funny, I had a similar experience..
hindsight2020
Final Approach
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2010
- Messages
- 6,999
- Display Name
Display name:
hindsight2020
Um,no. That was a blip when covid stopped hiring in March 2020. Hiring is back to 2019 pacing. Our retention numbers demonstrate the resumption of said irrational exuberance. Military shedding is happening at record pace due to the major hiring, as it always has. What is also happening though is that people are not clean separating from the service, but joining the Reserve Component and throttling their junior years at the airline with it. Yes, there are a portion of us (30% currently, which is a low number for the DOD retention targets), that choose to grab the active duty retirement and forego the airline hiring. I'd say about half of those qualified aviators who wait until active retirement to do something else, end up pursuing airlines after the check of the month club. So in total a good 75pct of mil aviators dabble in airline work. It's not much in the aggregate as the services are smaller now in pilot production and end strength.
BL, the USAF specifically, could accurately be considered the country's best paid regional airline/farm team. The numbers support that characterization from where I sit. Granted, I'm just an odd duck within my demographic (eligible for majors, chooses to forego at a moderate paycut for reasons I won't rehash here again). But most of my peers are going head first into the majors, until the industry mule kicks them again. Up and down we go in this perennially volatile occupational choice.
On your observation of the industry at large, you are correct, especially on the regional piece. As you said, this is a regional captain shortage. A queueing problem that no amount of regional FO hiring can fix. The answer is one of three doors:
1 fold the regional model,
2 dilute the requirements to be a part 121 captain at the regionals,
3 cancel flying and **** off the captive audience consumer until the recession "fixes" the hiring at the majors again.
My guess? Door 3 is what's more likely. No soup (free ab initio airline training) for OP in his lifetime I'm afraid.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2012
- Messages
- 15,597
- Display Name
Display name:
Velocity173
Yep, all branches are jumping ship. Man, what I could have done with a annual $35K bonus. Just bad timing for me…story of my life.
https://mwi.usma.edu/army-needs-better-solution-pilot-shortage/
Tarheelpilot
Final Approach
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2010
- Messages
- 7,507
- Location
- North Carolina once again.
- Display Name
Display name:
Tarheelpilot
No regrets dude. We all have alternate versions of ourselves…
Is there a massive deficit of doctors?
Is there a massive deficit of lawyers?
Is there a massive deficit of engineers?
DesertNomad
Pattern Altitude
yes, there is a doctor shortage. Dentists too. My dentist is booked a year out.
martym
Pre-takeoff checklist
Don't know about the others but some hospitals will pay off student loans for a Dr.
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2013
- Messages
- 6,528
- Display Name
Display name:
3G
Really?
My doc and my dentist both book ‘routine’ visit at the interval allowed under the insurance policy. Had an emergent issue last weekend, called the dentist on Monday morning and was seen Tuesday, with an apology she couldn’t fit me in on Monday.
My doc (internal med guy) does emergent care visits same day or refers to urgent care for same day if necessary.
sarangan
Pattern Altitude
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2008
- Messages
- 1,904
- Display Name
Display name:
Andrew, CFI-I
Hospitals may do that, but they are counting on you and me having to pay for it.
Tools
Pattern Altitude
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2020
- Messages
- 1,969
- Display Name
Display name:
Tools
The reason it’s stuck is simple. The FAA will never, ever, admit a mistake. It’s the one thing you can count on.
Especially if it involves relaxing a restriction.
Just an observation.
Now, they may create a new “position” and then allow that position, which requires less time, in the cockpit... which they kind of have already.
Especially if it involves relaxing a restriction.
Just an observation.
Now, they may create a new “position” and then allow that position, which requires less time, in the cockpit... which they kind of have already.
Tarheelpilot
Final Approach
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2010
- Messages
- 7,507
- Location
- North Carolina once again.
- Display Name
Display name:
Tarheelpilot
Labor unions fought hard to get it passed to create a false labor shortage. If it goes away it will require legislation not just a rule change at the FAA.
To quote our friends in the legislature directly from the law:
“(Sec. 217) Directs the FAA Administrator to conduct a rulemaking proceeding to modify minimum federal requirements for the issuance of airline transport pilot certificates. Requires a pilot to have at least 1,500 flight hours to qualify for a certificate.”
Tantalum
Final Approach
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2017
- Messages
- 9,250
- Display Name
Display name:
San_Diego_Pilot
-yes. This is actually a fairly well known thing.
The Association of American Medical Colleges has talked about it for years
https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/us-physician-shortage-growing
https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/press-releases/aamc-report-reinforces-mounting-physician-shortage
If you don't believe that check Forbes https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucej...pay-for-1000-new-residencies/?sh=684c7943a7b6
Most urban areas are looking at very long wait times and are scheduling out several weeks, sometimes months. The medical field shortage is more nuanced with lots of factors that are better discussed in its own thread or at least over on DoctorsOfAmerica.
I think this was meant to be tongue in cheek/rhetorical, but to me there's a fundamental issue here, but before that.. It's a free market. Why would Airline A take on the burden and risk of paying for their pilots' education soup to nuts? If Airline B is not doing that then now Airline A is automatically at a financial disadvantage for questionable gains.. will all those pilots follow through? Are they all medically certifiable? How many years do you expect them to fly for you in order for your investment to pay off? I don't see any executive board going out there alone and taking on that kind of cost. T
The second portion of this, and I know up above some folks are saying that eventually it pays off and they're making $300K per year, but ultimately you're asking someone to make some big sacrifices to pursue a career in aviation, not just financial (although that one's big for a few years at least) but it's got to be hard to get married, raise a family, etc., when you're spending half your month sleeping in crashpads cruising around the country making $65K a year flying CRJs.
The answer to the pilot shortage is to simply pay them more. As simple as that. Any time I hear "there's a shortage of X" the answer is $$. Asking an airline to pay for their training costs is just paying them more but with extra steps and a higher risk for the airline
Larry in TN
En-Route
It's not a "1500 hour thing", it's an "ATP thing".
The rule requires an ATP or Restricted ATP. Depending on a pilot's training background, this requirement can be met with 750, 1000, or 1250 hours total time.
A pilot who meets the requirements of an ATP or RATP has significantly more experience than a newly minted 250 hour Commercial Pilot. The differences go far deeper than total time. See Title 14 CFR, Part 61, Subpart G.
OneCharlieTango
Cleared for Takeoff
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2018
- Messages
- 1,165
- Display Name
Display name:
OneCharlieTango
That would be true if you wanted to hire Boomers and Gen X’ers. But Millennials and Gen Z’s care a lot less about money and a lot more about time off, security, “experiences,” self-expression, and their various causes. Flying the bus isn’t very adventurous to them. Furthermore, there’s a lot of time and effort involved in getting there, with no guarantee that you’ll get to stay. On the whole, it just doesn’t tick any of their most important boxes. Add to that the perceived damage caused by fossil fuels (caused by the airline, not by the vacationing millennials in the back), and money is meaningless to them.
I’m sure people will reply with refuting anecdotes. I raised a couple myself, one of whom is a United FO. But what I’m saying is true in the main.
Tantalum
Final Approach
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2017
- Messages
- 9,250
- Display Name
Display name:
San_Diego_Pilot
..true. I'm a millennial by age but probably closer to a Gen X'er having been an accident with siblings all =>14 years older than me. Our company offers periodically PTO sell back options and other little perk awards that you can redeem for either bonus time off, more money, or other random goodies (hotel points, etc). Amazingly, only myself and two other people (out of about 80) used the most recent PTO sell back and the vast majority turn in their award $$s for PTO. F that, give me the money. Two years ago I sold back a chunk of my PTO time and used it to pay for my multi
..but to expand on that, and in a bit of a 'maslow's heierarchy' thing, the 'pay them more' can be a catch-all term for making the job more appealing. If pure $$ won't do it then tell them you'll plant a tree for each route flown, offer a matched 401K of sorts that goes towards renewables, whatever...
OneCharlieTango
Cleared for Takeoff
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2018
- Messages
- 1,165
- Display Name
Display name:
OneCharlieTango
That’s great! But don’t forget the signaling part. The company will plant a tree for every 100 hours flown, and you get to post a selfie with “your” tree. Or there’s a sign next to each little grove with the names of all of the “contributing” pilots. And your signature block in company email says “Responsible for planting 50 trees.”
It might help, but it’s pretty cynical.
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2013
- Messages
- 6,528
- Display Name
Display name:
3G
All these labor ‘shortages’ tells me either the fundamental business model is wrong or the industry is marketing to attract talent.
Talent acquisition pretty much comes down to “show me the money” in most every non-unionized industry.
If I was a major, I’d drop the degree requirement tell places like ERAU that attracting students is their problem.
Talent acquisition pretty much comes down to “show me the money” in most every non-unionized industry.
If I was a major, I’d drop the degree requirement tell places like ERAU that attracting students is their problem.
Trogdor
Pre-takeoff checklist
I know (I was being coy). The fact is it makes very little sense and creates this industry of poor CFIs just “building time” as well as a “constant pilot shortage”. I also don’t think the folks who made up this number had a clue.
Larry in TN
En-Route
It's not "that number". It's a whole list of experience, training, and testing requirements that are in addition to the requirements for a CPL.
Radar Contact
Pattern Altitude
I don’t think they will for the reasons already mentioned. I don’t think the initial investment is bad considering career total income possible. All one needs is to get to commercial then they can get flying jobs to ATP mins. I started flight instructing at 19 and by 20 was flying a 400 series Cessna for aerial mapping. ATP mins came quickly while getting paid good enough to get by.
9/11 and the following timing wasn’t great and I made the switch to ATC. Worked out well for me but I still find myself wishing sometimes I had bit the bullet and stuck with it. As mentioned, very cyclical industry. Year you were born matters as much (possibly more) as skill/experience.
Reference @OneCharlieTango and @Tantalum discussion on generational differences, I’m on the X/Millennial bubble being early 40’s…I’d trade money for time off. How much does one really need to stuff in their casket?
9/11 and the following timing wasn’t great and I made the switch to ATC. Worked out well for me but I still find myself wishing sometimes I had bit the bullet and stuck with it. As mentioned, very cyclical industry. Year you were born matters as much (possibly more) as skill/experience.
Reference @OneCharlieTango and @Tantalum discussion on generational differences, I’m on the X/Millennial bubble being early 40’s…I’d trade money for time off. How much does one really need to stuff in their casket?
Tarheelpilot
Final Approach
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2010
- Messages
- 7,507
- Location
- North Carolina once again.
- Display Name
Display name:
Tarheelpilot
DOB is definitely the most important aspect to a good career.I don’t think they will for the reasons already mentioned. I don’t think the initial investment is bad considering career total income possible. All one needs is to get to commercial then they can get flying jobs to ATP mins. I started flight instructing at 19 and by 20 was flying a 400 series Cessna for aerial mapping. ATP mins came quickly while getting paid good enough to get by.
9/11 and the following timing wasn’t great and I made the switch to ATC. Worked out well for me but I still find myself wishing sometimes I had bit the bullet and stuck with it. As mentioned, very cyclical industry. Year you were born matters as much (possibly more) as skill/experience.
Reference @OneCharlieTango and @Tantalum discussion on generational differences, I’m on the X/Millennial bubble being early 40’s…I’d trade money for time off. How much does one really need to stuff in their casket?
Trogdor
Pre-takeoff checklist
No, it IS that number. All the intangibles you speak of are learned through quality experience not quantity. And Congress made ATP more of a numbers game than a safety one. I also think while the number of hours is static to qualify for ATP the cost isn’t.
It really is a broken system.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
I agree, the system is broken…but it was broken long before “that number” became the entitled minimum standard to which many pilots strive. Mediocrity has long been a goal in aviation. Too many pilots want the seat and the seniority number, and will do the absolute minimum to get there.