Do Touch-and-Goes Instill Bad Habits?

Do Touch-and-Goes Instill Bad Habits?

  • Yes

    Votes: 5 14.3%

  • No

    Votes: 30 85.7%
  • Total voters
    35
labbadabba

labbadabba

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labbadabba
I'm a low-time PPL but have had my ticket for a few years now. Recently I was doing a checkout with a new FBO for a rental. Came in a little high and fast on approach and crossing the threshold I decided to do a go-around. Full-Power - Carb heat cold - clean up the plane and climb. Maybe apply a little right rudder and trim for a climb. Easy.

Problem is, because I've done SO many touch-and-goes over the years (far more than doing go-arounds) my muscle memory for a TnG is to clean up the plane first before adding power. So just 50 feet above the runway, I cut the flaps before putting in power. I was able to recover but the ground sure came up quickly. I explained what I did and why to the CFI and he says that it's a problem with doing a lot of TnGs. I went up with another CFI and he suggested just to use the same procedure on a TnG as you would with a go-around. Power first, then worry about cleaning up the airplane...

Another thing I don't like is that landings and take-offs are two very different procedures and should be evaluated separately IMO. It's a fairly high work-load to do a TnG; re-configuring the aircraft, re-setting your mental checklist, etc. all while the plane is transitioning from air-ground-air. It's a good way to get behind the airplane and if you're dealing with a x-wind you may forget your correction, or if you're not on center-line it may be a recipe for doing something stupid like a ground loop.

Anyway, for me. I need time to reset. Reevaluate the risks and make sure my mind and the aircraft are ready to go before trundling down the runway. If it adds a few extra minutes/$$ to my flight then it's worth it to know that I'm decreasing my personal risk.
 
While the topic of TnGs can get very heated very fast, my first thought is that you need to do more go arounds. This is typically a weak area for pilots to start with, since we do so few. They should be practiced like any other maneuver or operation.
 
Personally, I think it's a lack of concentration to not be able to differentiate between a touch n go and a go-around.
 
A touch and go should be that far off from a go around.

One thing you might want to do, on short final start thinking about the go around, also turn the carb off on short final, for one that low you're not likely to get ice, for two you're low enough to pick up dust/dirt and the carb heat is unfiltered air and for three when your low at a highly critical phase of flight, you want all available power immediately if needed.
 
Nothing wrong w/ TnGs, but I always would teach a GA in there too (being sadistic, if it looked like the student had a great landing cooking that's when I sneak one in lol). Don't forget a stop n go either as long as other traffic is not behind you and runway sufficient. While stopped clean up the plane, trim for TO and go. As mentioned on a GA power first, pitch to climb, flaps up halfway (o a C152 for ex) then bleed the remaining flaps up. Don't forget carb heat and anything else, but get going with power first.
 
I've flown almost exclusively Cessna aircraft// Rote memory is Carb-heat, throttle, flaps... same sequence whether you are setting up for landing or going around...
 
Nope, FULL power first then carb heat, flaps. Check your POH. ALWAYS power first, same w/ a stall recovery.
 
My primary CFI didn't like touch and goes when I was solo. Full stops only. The reason given was the tendency to transition too quickly to the go and not pay enough attention to the landing. I do TnG now, but that comment made me force myself to make sure there is a break between the two. Make it two distinct actions, the landing first, followed by the takeoff. As a student I started to feel like it was one motion. I think that also helps makes it distinct from a go-around. I consider touch and go (and I'm not a CFI) as discrete steps: land, configure for takeoff, then go. I'm not sure that adding power and then configuring, like you would on a go-around, is ideal for muscle memory.

Getting a new checkout, in a different plane, with a new CFI, adds to the nerves of a go-around anyway.
 
labbadabba said:
............I went up with another CFI and he suggested just to use the same procedure on a TnG as you would with a go-around. Power first, then worry about cleaning up the airplane..........
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At first I thought "not a good idea." But then I thought "might be a good idea." I've seen accident reports where the "solution" would have been a go around after touching down. I'd recommend going up with that CFI again and do it.
 
I was taught power up, arrest the decent, then clean the airplane up, accelerate and climb. There were other things involved, depending on what we were flying, but that was the basics.
 
Craig said:
I was taught power up, .
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You can't go wrong with the procedure spelled out in the aircraft POH. Some CFIs and experienced pilots (even at the airlines) think their way is better. Just saying.
 
Matthew said:
My primary CFI didn't like touch and goes when I was solo. Full stops only. The reason given was the tendency to transition too quickly to the go and not pay enough attention to the landing. I do TnG now, but that comment made me force myself to make sure there is a break between the two. Make it two distinct actions, the landing first, followed by the takeoff. As a student I started to feel like it was one motion. I think that also helps makes it distinct from a go-around. I consider touch and go (and I'm not a CFI) as discrete steps: land, configure for takeoff, then go. I'm not sure that adding power and then configuring, like you would on a go-around, is ideal for muscle memory.

Getting a new checkout, in a different plane, with a new CFI, adds to the nerves of a go-around anyway.
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Why make such a distinction?
 
Cooter143 said:
Why make such a distinction?
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That's what my CFI wanted to see: A touch and go is a landing followed by a takeoff, not a maneuver of its own. After have seen the results of a student running off the rwy doing just that, I tend to agree.
 
Matthew said:
That's what my CFI wanted to see: A touch and go is a landing followed by a takeoff, not a maneuver of its own. After have seen the results of a student running off the rwy doing just that, I tend to agree.
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I don't look at it that way. I think of it as flying a go-around with your wheels momentarily rolling on the ground. Runway departures would likely decrease with that mentality, not increase because it limits the time on the ground, and you never quit flying the airplane. Go-around mentality should remain throughout the initial part of the landing rollout. On takeoff, a keep-it-on-the-ground mindset will prevail until right up to rotation speed in most circumstances.
 
James331 said:
A touch and go should be that far off from a go around.

One thing you might want to do, on short final start thinking about the go around........
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I read something years ago about "mindset" on instrument approaches. One is "I''m going to shoot this approach and land, but if I don't have the runway at minimums, then I will execute the missed approach." The other is I'm going to shoot this approach to minimums and execute a missed approach, but if I have the runway before minimums, then I will land." I've taken that to my VFR landings. I make the approach to a go around. One of my after turning final verbal call outs is flaps and how much to lose right away on a go around.
 
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James331 said:
A touch and go should be that far off from a go around.

One thing you might want to do, on short final start thinking about the go around, also turn the carb off on short final, for one that low you're not likely to get ice, for two you're low enough to pick up dust/dirt and the carb heat is unfiltered air and for three when your low at a highly critical phase of flight, you want all available power immediately if needed.
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I've never thought of carb heat off on short final. I like it. I might be reluctant if the weather is very high probability of icing though. Anyone know just how fast it can build to a point of affecting power? 5 seconds? 10.
 
I agree with earlier comments that a TnG is two separate maneuvers instead of single continuous one, and here is why.

Every landing is a go around until proven differently. That is the conditions, the plane, and myself all have to agree that we are really going to settle on the runway before I decide not to go around. And much less common, but every takeoff is an abort unless everything lines up as well.

I am lucky that I have never aborted a takeoff except as a training exercise, but then again it is pretty easy to keep a plane on center line until rotation speed is met. Go arounds are much more common, both from my own skill level making them a real occurrence and as training exercise.
 
Cooter143 said:
I don't look at it that way. I think of it as flying a go-around with your wheels momentarily rolling on the ground. Runway departures would likely decrease with that mentality, not increase because it limits the time on the ground, and you never quit flying the airplane. Go-around mentality should remain throughout the initial part of the landing rollout. On takeoff, a keep-it-on-the-ground mindset will prevail until right up to rotation speed in most circumstances.
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Yeah, two ways to look at it. One as a go-around initiated on the ground, and the other as a way to do a landing and a takeoff without the taxi-back in between.
 
For me it's just about thinking through what phase of flight I am in. A go around is immediate power, carb heat cold, and flaps to 10...wait for a positive climb rate and bring up flaps to 0. During a TnG, it's just cleaning everything up at the same time.
 
luvflyin said:
I've never thought of carb heat off on short final. I like it. I might be reluctant if the weather is very high probability of icing though. Anyone know just how fast it can build to a point of affecting power? 5 seconds? 10.
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Short final (like mile or so) not likely you're going to catch ice.

Way more likely you're going to get some sink, or have a deer run onto the field, or something where you're going to want 100% out of your engine, to me the threat of ice on short final isn't as large a risk as not having full (and filter air) down low.
 
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I've gotten into the habit of shutting off the carb heat a few seconds before reaching the runway threshold. It makes a difference when you're depending on 65 HP for a go-around. Having no flaps to deal with helps on touch-n-goes, but I still have to retrim. Usually I do that when positive rate of climb/airspeed is reached. I normally execute a go-around when I bounce a landing.
 
Just a maneuver ,to save money. I prefer stop and goes.
 
luvflyin said:
I've never thought of carb heat off on short final. I like it. I might be reluctant if the weather is very high probability of icing though. Anyone know just how fast it can build to a point of affecting power? 5 seconds? 10.
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I was trained that once you are within gliding distance on short final (usually around 500' AGL), turn off carb heat, in case you need full power at some point, you want every RPM you can muster.
 
I don't even plan on doing any touch and goes in my complex aircraft. Too damn many things to do way too quickly.
 
One of my CFIs started me telling myself on short final, "Verify everything is ready for the go-around".
 
There's a lot of discussion back and forth about whether touch & goes are a good or a bad thing. I really don't think it's either. It has one real function: it's a time-saver that allows one to practice takeoffs and landings without having to taxi back for another takeoff and the runway isn't long enough for a normal full stop followed by another takeoff. Beyond that, there is some risk-benefit analysis which is why some folks never do them in retracts. Damage history suggests there is too much risk of a gear-up to balance the time-savings benefit.

I don't think it has the ability to instill bad habits so long as it is kept in its place. The problem comes in when you use practicing touch & go to replace practicing real flight maneuvers – like a go-around.
 
N659HB said:
I prefer to save my brakes. :D I'm sure I would operate differently with a complex aircraft.
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Not sure why you need brakes shy of a rather short field.

For me, with students, it's not as much about cutting costs with t&gs, it's more about maximizing their time (often pre solo).
 
mscard88 said:
Nope, FULL power first then carb heat, flaps. Check your POH. ALWAYS power first, same w/ a stall recovery.
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Private First Class. PFC= a Power, Flaps (partially retracted as appropriate, your airplane will determine) Carb Heat cold. Establish climb, climb clear at Vx, continue positive rate of climb until clear, pitch for Vy and fully retract flaps.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I don't think it has the ability to instill bad habits so long as it is kept in its place. The problem comes in when you use practicing touch & go to replace practicing real flight maneuvers – like a go-around.
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I think this is what I was getting at.
 
I didn't many T&G while learning to land. Now I try a different type of landing, flaps, no flaps, short, soft etc. Then taxi back and go over in my head what I could be better and how to do it. Not paying by the hour I don't have that worry. Three quick T&G doesn't really improve my flying much.
 
mscard88 said:
Nope, FULL power first then carb heat, flaps. Check your POH. ALWAYS power first, same w/ a stall recovery.
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Yeah. That.

Why else would your hand be on the throttle on final approach?? Your hand is already there. Go around is a no-brainer, push the throttle forward and add right rudder to compensate, establish a climb. Then you can d*ck with everything else like slowly removing flaps, pulling up the gear etc.
 
Lachlan said:
Private First Class. PFC= a Power, Flaps (partially retracted as appropriate, your airplane will determine) Carb Heat cold. Establish climb, climb clear at Vx, continue positive rate of climb until clear, pitch for Vy and fully retract flaps.
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Whatever. I go by and teach POH, the procedure it states to do.
 
I've redone my checklists to work into a flow that works on the plane, flow and follow up with the checklist.

Sometimes the POH works well for a good flow, sometimes, especially in some airframes, it doesn't.
 
mscard88 said:
Whatever. I go by and teach POH, the procedure it states to do.
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You're right. PFC? That's just the checklist's memory aid. In reality, full power and carb heat cold are simultaneous in a 172. Hand on throttle, thumb on top of carb heat knob- push 'em both to the firewall together. I am 100% in agreement with everything you have posted in this thread.
 
Lachlan said:
You're right. PFC? That's just the checklist's memory aid. In reality, full power and carb heat cold are simultaneous in a 172. Hand on throttle, thumb on top of carb heat knob- push 'em both to the firewall together. I am 100% in agreement with everything you have posted in this thread.
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Yup, that's how I teach it too, simultaneous in Cessna products which have been 90% of the trainers I've used in the past 40+ years. Cherokees & Lance you don't use carb heat unless you have an indication of carb icing. Don't recall the Beech Skipper method which I taught in also.
 
Lachlan said:
Private First Class. PFC= a Power, Flaps (partially retracted as appropriate, your airplane will determine) Carb Heat cold. Establish climb, climb clear at Vx, continue positive rate of climb until clear, pitch for Vy and fully retract flaps.
Click to expand...

I think you ultimately said this but PFC, like most moronics, ummm, mnemonics, is reminder of the group of things that need to be accomplished, put into a form that supposedly makes it easier to remember. The goal is for you to remember that you need all three actions for an effective go around in that airplane, and to give you a catchy phrase to hang it on. It's not necessarily the exact order. The exact order is called "airmanship".

I guess someone where you were taught thought "Private First Class" was better than "Pigs Can Fly" (which I personally think is a far better mnemonic).
 
midlifeflyer said:
I think you ultimately said this but PFC, like most moronics, ummm, mnemonics, is reminder of the group of things that need to be accomplished, put into a form that supposedly makes it easier to remember. The goal is for you to remember that you need all three actions for an effective go around in that airplane, and to give you a catchy phrase to hang it on. It's not necessarily the exact order. The exact order is called "airmanship".

I guess someone where you were taught thought "Private First Class" was better than "Pigs Can Fly" (which I personally think is a far better mnemonic).
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PFC is for Power (carb heat cold,) Flaps, Climb.
 
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Fortunately for me I really sucked at doing approaches early on so I got to do a lot of go arounds in my PPL training. hah
I've become so used to doing them that if I see a wind or setup that I'm not 100% sure of I'll plan a low approach/go around just for practice before I attempt a landing. Just did that last Friday on my long X/C.
 
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