Do they teach correct patterns any more?

lancie00

lancie00

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lancie00
Last night I came home to a non-towered field from the north. Winds favored runway 30. I made my first call 10 miles out stating that I was going to enter a left downwind for 30. I then had 2 more aircraft call in saying they were 10 and 18 miles north of the field and they were going to enter a RIGHT BASE to 30. One of which was a local carrier flying a Caravan. I continued to make calls and eventually entered the left downwind to 30. They both decided they needed to be on the ground before me and cut in front of me after I made my downwind call. I ended up having to extend my downwind just so they could make their right bases.

Now I hate to be that grumpy guy that always finds something wrong but I had it in my mind that this was illegal but I couldn't remember for sure. I finally got time today and found 91.126.

To all of you who think it's ok to use whatever pattern you want, it is ILLEGAL. "Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right..."

If nothing else, I would at least quit saying you're doing something illegal on the radio where everyone can listen.

End of rant... Thank you.
 
lancie00 said:
Last night I came home to a non-towered field from the north. Winds favored runway 30. I made my first call 10 miles out stating that I was going to enter a left downwind for 30. I then had 2 more aircraft call in saying they were 10 and 18 miles north of the field and they were going to enter a RIGHT BASE to 30. One of which was a local carrier flying a Caravan. I continued to make calls and eventually entered the left downwind to 30. They both decided they needed to be on the ground before me and cut in front of me after I made my downwind call. I ended up having to extend my downwind just so they could make their right bases.

Now I hate to be that grumpy guy that always finds something wrong but I had it in my mind that this was illegal but I couldn't remember for sure. I finally got time today and found 91.126.

To all of you who think it's ok to use whatever pattern you want, it is ILLEGAL. "Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right..."

If nothing else, I would at least quit saying you're doing something illegal on the radio where everyone can listen.

End of rant... Thank you.
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Why don't you tell us which airport, so we can check if runway 30 is left or right traffic?
 
I trained at and based at a delta and I love it because
I don’t have to do any brain work to enter the pattern or get nailed by some nordo because the tower takes the guess work out.

I’ve had a couple funny incidents at uncontrolled airports. I was flying into one and 5 other planes all showed up at the same time. 2 twins two Cherokees
And one bonanza. I was just entering the left down wind behind the bonanza and the twins exercised their speed privilege and basically told me to get out of the way so I ended up doing 360s and ended up being last to get in.

Last one to happen it was me and another guy the pattern. Mister ATP fligtb school comes on in and announces they are doing simulated engine failures 2000 feet above the field to landing. So I had to keep and eye on him while he spiraled down on final and I extended and ended up getting cut off by the other guy in the pattern. At least he apologized when I departed.
 
I called a 45 for the left downwind to an airport yesterday and nobody said anything. Right after that I noticed a giant radio tower right in the middle of the downwind. I got back on and asked if it was right traffic and got an immediate “yes”. Announced I’d maneuver to enter a right downwind and proceeded.

It was on me 100% for forgetting it was right pattern. I had looked earlier in the day but forgot, but geez, would have been nice if someone had told me I was being stupid.
 
I entered a right downwind for 30 last night too.

My home airport becomes G after 2200. I am going to turn myself in, I don't think it has any lighting to indicate otherwise. I did happen to flip over to CTAF and hear approach giving traffic advisories about me. I wasn't talking to anybody because it was 0010. I then piped in and confessed that I was on a right midfield downwind for 30R.
 
Unless you're flying something that you can't slow down very much, (turbine, whatever) at smaller uncontrolled fields, if you make your first call 5 miles out, rather than 10 miles out, it's usually easier for everybody else to sort it out. Nothing more aggravating than somebody making a call 10 miles out expecting everybody else to accommodate, then pitch a fit because they think somebody has violated them, or some regulation.
I'm relatively fast, normally make my first call 5 miles out, and fly a tight pattern. I can be safely on the ground and out of the plane before you even make the pattern. I might not even use my radio. And, rather than cherry picking the regs., a deeper dive might be in order when we're discussing patterns at uncontrolled fields.
 
If I were you, I would have proceeded with a citizens arrest at the ramp. Next time try that with a live youtube feed for us to enjoy.

Oh yeah, 3/10 rant. Too polite and too many paragraphs. Try harder next time. I need to envision a vein protruding from your forehead and a fire engine red face. Pics and a sketch would have helped. And lower quality grammar.
 
Some people believe rules are for people that need rules. These two pilots probably knew they didn’t need rules.
 
Art Rose said:
Unless you're flying something that you can't slow down very much, (turbine, whatever) at smaller uncontrolled fields, if you make your first call 5 miles out, rather than 10 miles out, it's usually easier for everybody else to sort it out. Nothing more aggravating than somebody making a call 10 miles out expecting everybody else to accommodate, then pitch a fit because they think somebody has violated them, or some regulation.
I'm relatively fast, normally make my first call 5 miles out, and fly a tight pattern. I can be safely on the ground and out of the plane before you even make the pattern. I might not even use my radio. And, rather than cherry picking the regs., a deeper dive might be in order when we're discussing patterns at uncontrolled fields.
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Yep, you sound just like the type of guy that feels he can fly whatever pattern he wants. If you're faster than me I'll be more than happy to get out of your way but that doesn't mean that you're allowed to break the law. I noticed you decided to think that I "cherry picked" the regs but didn't offer any reg that I'm wrong. If I am, I'm more than willing to admit it but I haven't seen anything different.
 
texasclouds said:
If I were you, I would have proceeded with a citizens arrest at the ramp. Next time try that with a live youtube feed for us to enjoy.

Oh yeah, 3/10 rant. Too polite and too many paragraphs. Try harder next time. I need to envision a vein protruding from your forehead and a fire engine red face. Pics and a sketch would have helped. And lower quality grammar.
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Yeah it wasn't much of a rant because I'm used to it. Seems like most people just fly whatever pattern they want anyway. If it helps, I'll try to get madder next time.
 
Bill Jennings said:
Agree. I did my primary training at a charlie, so I'm very comfortable talking to and being in the ATC environment. Uncontrolled airports are like the wild west.
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Did mine at a Delta. I'm always amazed at how many pilots hate towered fields or are intimidated by them. For me it's just the opposite.
 
lancie00 said:
Yep, you sound just like the type of guy that feels he can fly whatever pattern he wants. If you're faster than me I'll be more than happy to get out of your way but that doesn't mean that you're allowed to break the law. I noticed you decided to think that I "cherry picked" the regs but didn't offer any reg that I'm wrong. If I am, I'm more than willing to admit it but I haven't seen anything different.
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You're not wrong. And pilots have been violated for making right turns in the pattern. It's not nothing.
 
Uncontrolled fields are called uncontrolled for a reason. Some people follow the regs and/or the AIM, some don't. This is not new information.
 
It seems that lately some pilots are going to take the shortest route to landing,at least they’re all talking.
 
I'm tired of those Cirrus guys calling 20 mile straight in, any traffic BE advised, Cirrus inbound.
 
This isn’t an “anymore” problem. It’s been going on for decades.

I had the discussion with one of the guys I used to fly with after he insisted on making right traffic...he kept saying “the AIM is advisory.” I replied, “but the regulation isn’t advisory.”

After a few rounds of this, I printed the reg and handed it to him. He said, “what’s this?”
“Your ‘advisory’ reg.” Although not quite that politely.:rolleyes:

No more problems with that guy...at least on that particular subject.
 
When I was a student pilot flying a Cherokee 140 (uncontrolled airport) with my instructor I called out 3 miles out, on the 45, and then left downwind and this big twin called out 5 mile straight in final right after I announce downwind. I then turn and call out and announce left base and right after this twin announces 3 mile final straight in. I'm worried so I ask my instructor what to do and he says "turn final and announce it we're slower, lower, and in the pattern". So, slightly scared I turn final, announce, and about the time I'm over the fence this ******* in the twin overflies me by about 500' to let me know he's there as he banks hard to the left to go around. We were doing touch n go's at the time and I was a student pilot, if it happened today I'd park my plane on the ramp and wait for him to discuss his antics as I was lower and established when he decided to announce his intentions to force me to accommodate him.

14 CFR § 91.113 Right-of-way rules:
(g)Landing.Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.
 
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mryan75 said:
Did mine at a Delta. I'm always amazed at how many pilots hate towered fields or are intimidated by them. For me it's just the opposite.
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Lack of experience.
 
imwithtuxedo said:
When I was a student pilot flying a Cherokee 140 (uncontrolled airport) with my instructor I called out 3 miles out, on the 45, and then left downwind and this big twin called out 5 mile straight in final right after I announce downwind. I then turn and call out and announce left base and right after this twin announces 3 mile final straight in. I'm worried so I ask my instructor what to do and he says "turn final and announce it we're slower, lower, and in the pattern". So, slightly scared I turn final, announce, and about the time I'm over the fence this ******* in the twin overflies me by about 500' to let me know he's there as he banks hard to the left to go around. We were doing touch n go's at the time and I was a student pilot, if it happened today I'd park my plane on the ramp and wait for him to discuss his antics as I was lower and established when he decided to announce his intentions to force me to accommodate him.

14 CFR § 91.113 Right-of-way rules:
(g)Landing.Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.
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I find it interesting that you quoted that reg, having stated specifically that you “took advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach...”
 
Lindberg said:
I really, really, really, really hope you are being facetious. If not, you might want to review some information on types of airspace.
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Yes of course I’m not just giving up my responsibilities as PIC to see and avoid and maintain separation. What I mean is it’s much easier to manage traffic flow into and out of airports if there is someone coordinating everything instead of a bunch of pilots who don’t have anymore say than anyone else in the pattern.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I find it interesting that you quoted that reg, having stated specifically that you “took advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach...”
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Actually, I didn't "cut" in front of anyone. I was lower and in the pattern announcing my intentions. He piped up and then tried to cut in front of me. If there's traffic announcing in the established pattern you don't get to just announce a straight in approach and make everyone else accomodate you. That's not how this flying **** works. Since I'm quoting the regs, there's this one as well:


§ 91.126 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G airspace.
(a)General. Unless otherwise authorized or required, each person operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class G airspace area must comply with the requirements of this section.

(b)Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without an operating control tower in Class G airspace -

(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right; and
 
FWIW, the IAF (OVEKV) to the north for the RNAV (GPS) RWY 30 approach will have you on a right base when you switch to CTAF. Perhaps that's what the carrier is doing at least.
 
imwithtuxedo said:
Actually, I didn't "cut" in front of anyone. I was lower and in the pattern announcing my intentions. He piped up and then tried to cut in front of me. If there's traffic announcing in the established pattern you don't get to just announce a straight in approach and make everyone else accomodate you. That's not how this flying **** works. Since I'm quoting the regs, there's this one as well:


§ 91.126 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G airspace.
(a)General. Unless otherwise authorized or required, each person operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class G airspace area must comply with the requirements of this section.

(b)Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without an operating control tower in Class G airspace -

(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right; and
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"turn final and announce it we're slower, lower, and in the pattern" sounds like both cutting in front of AND taking advantage of the reg.

If you want to get into the argument of whether an airplane in the pattern has the right of way over a straight in by default, I’d suggest searching for any number of threads that include that argument rather than repeating it here.
 
MauleSkinner said:
If you want to get into the argument of whether an airplane in the pattern has the right of way over a straight in by default, I’d suggest searching for any number of threads that include that argument rather than repeating it here.
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It could be argued that the twin on a 5-mile straight in is "approaching an airport for the purpose of landing" rather than "on final approach to land".
 
imwithtuxedo said:
Actually, I didn't "cut" in front of anyone. I was lower and in the pattern announcing my intentions. He piped up and then tried to cut in front of me. If there's traffic announcing in the established pattern you don't get to just announce a straight in approach and make everyone else accomodate you. That's not how this flying **** works. Since I'm quoting the regs, there's this one as well:


§ 91.126 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G airspace.
(a)General. Unless otherwise authorized or required, each person operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class G airspace area must comply with the requirements of this section.

(b)Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without an operating control tower in Class G airspace -

(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right; and
Click to expand...

There also just the issue of commen sense and courtesy... a big twin coming straight in and here you are just doing touch and goes in the pattern. If I were doing pattern work i would have defintely just extended my downwind leg to accommodate the guy in the much bigger plane that just wants to get on the ground and land. Understand everyone has to do training (pattern work) but understand planes staying in the pattern are basically a nuisance to all the other transient landing traffic.

Also if I'm approaching a field where I can make a straight in to the active runway or make it short and enter on a base leg and there is no traffic I will. There is nothing illegal or wrong with this.

Anyone who will overfly their destination and then enter the pattern on a 45 for a left downwind is just wasting fuel imho. Assuming traffic allows for a straight in or short pattern.
 
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