Do submarine helmsmen have to deal with Spacial D?

The Hunley was a remarkable vessel for its time. It actually sank three times, killing everyone or virtually everyone on board each time. The first two losses weren’t in combat, and it was recovered and given a new crew after the first two sinkings. Brave men, those crews.
 
This stuff is so cool. Love submarines. Working on a mod to my RV 8 to make it a submarine when necessary. Yes, I know, "every man-made vehicle is capable of going underwater; only a submarine can return to the surface."
 
no to re-rail the thread but I did not see a post about...do subs have an autopilot of sorts?
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
no to re-rail the thread but I did not see a post about...do subs have an autopilot of sorts?
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Yes.

For Trident, LA Class and older boats the control surfaces do not allow for roll. We would occasionally use outs for course keeping or depth control. But it sucked at transitions. That was over 30yrs ago so you'd think its fixed.

No clue on Seawolf and Virginia class as the control surfaces and vectoring are different. Hopefully much better than ours.

Not exactly an AP but the boat did have a fantastic hovering "AP". No person no matter what their skill level could do it even if we switched to manual and let them see all inputs (actual and derivatives).
 
No autopilot as you think of it. But then consider you're moving very slowly through water, no p-factor, things don't happen very quickly. A team with experience can keep the boat level, on depth and on course with little concentration. Adjustments are minor, almost imperceptible.
 
bflynn said:
No autopilot as you think of it. But then consider you're moving very slowly through water, no p-factor, things don't happen very quickly. A team with experience can keep the boat level, on depth and on course with little concentration. Adjustments are minor, almost imperceptible.
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Interesting that you mention P-factor. It has been so long but I do recall having a trim or 'offset' for the rudder. Otherwise placing the rudder amidships (rudder angle = 0 degrees) did not result in moving straight ahead. However I don't recall at what "bells" (speeds) it applied.

Maybe a bit more about controls on submarines. Most of this is for the LA and Trident boats (before the fancy Seawolf / Virginia).

Our small cable/pulley based GA planes have no indicators on the panel for the commanded and actual position of the control surfaces. Really no need actually. Its mechanically direct. You can also see them. More importantly, things happen relative fast and you can immediately feel them since the plane is incredibly light (think 1-2 tons).

On a submarine its much different as @bflynn said. First off you can't see outside. Next, you aren't really going that fast and often purposely very slow. The Trident was displacing around 18,000 tons!!!

So the guys at the controls sit and watch the course, depth, ships bubble (our pitch angle). The is another inclinometer for roll (forget the name) but that (for us, back then) was only to really measure rolls due to wx.

Our version of AP had 3 modes. Off (all manual). Auto (ships computer ran that surface). And a very simple assist that indicated what the computer would do but did not control the surface. Our "AP" was decent and straight and level. But the start of a turn, end of turn, start of depth change, and end of depth change has some oscillation. In a sense the PID controller probably need a bit more Ki and Kd (integrator and derivative). I am sure its all worked out now :) But back then it lacked that "experience" element that knew to lead and check things for efficiency.

Example of a course change:

They turn the rudder via a yoke not a lot different than in our old 182. Note: NO PEDALS!!! There is no force feedback as your turn the yoke. A good helmsman will use enough rudder to get the big old cow swinging in the right direction - but not cavitate the rudder! You have to keep the rudder in that position to keep turning. That same good helmsman will have done that turn and speed combination before (or something like it) and will know to "check" with opposite rudder at the right time and amount to not overshoot course. Just zeroing the rudder in advance will take forever to swing it onto the final course. Plus the turn rate will not be consistent. Who decides the course change? Usually the Officer Of The Deck (OOD) will command the new course and rudder angle to use for the turn (exception: see Conning Officer below). They know the turn rates of the boat at different bells (speeds) so kind of like knowing standard turns. Its been a lot of years so some verbiage is probably wrong but if often goes like this. They are about 5-15ft from each other so no headset is needed:

OOD: "Helm right 20 degrees rudder, make your course 112"
Helm: "Right 20 degrees rudder, make my course 112 helm aye"
...a bit later...
Helm: "Rudder is right 20 degrees".
DOOW: Watches over the helm to make sure he maintains depth and the proper turn.
....a bit later...
Helm: "Passing 0 degrees to the right"
....a bit later...
Helm: "Steady on course 112".

The jargon is a bit different than aviation but very heavy with exact repeat backs.

Depth changes and bubble are somewhat similar but the DOOW (Diving Officer of the watch) gets very involved as its his responsibility.

OOD: "Dive 10 degrees up angle, make your depth 200ft"
DOOW: "10 degrees up angle, make depth 200ft, Dive aye"

The DOOW then privately "instructs" the helm (who also controls the front planes) and the stern planes station (pitch) to make the changes need.
Both stations lead with enough control changes to get it moving but in this case the stern planes can zero out once the angle is established (like a plane).
eventually the angle is reduced and fine depth control is established an you will hear something like:

DOOW: "Officer of the deck 200ft" {or something like that}

...that callout is very important when transitioning to periscope depth where fine adjustments will be needed.


The Conning Officer:
Underway the the Officer Of The Deck is actually standing two roles. The Officer Of The Deck and the Conning Officer. The Conning Officer is who orders turns, depth changes, etc. In movies (and in real life) the Captain will typically take the 'Con' during battle stations or drills or if he is generally displeased with what it going on regarding safety, etc. Then you might hear this interesting exchange:

Captain: "I have the con"
OOD/CON: "Captain has the con, I have the deck"
Helm: "Captain has the con helm aye"

An even more interesting exchange (a very unhappy Captain) can do this (I was there it was not pretty to hear)

Captain: "Lt ABC I relieve you, I have the deck and the con"
OOD/CON: "Captain has the deck and the con, I stand relieved"
Helm: "Captain has the con, helm aye"
 
Sinistar said:
Interesting that you mention P-factor. It has been so long but I do recall having a trim or 'offset' for the rudder. Otherwise placing the rudder amidships (rudder angle = 0 degrees) did not result in moving straight ahead. However I don't recall at what "bells" (speeds) it applied.

Maybe a bit more about controls on submarines. Most of this is for the LA and Trident boats (before the fancy Seawolf / Virginia).

Our small cable/pulley based GA planes have no indicators on the panel for the commanded and actual position of the control surfaces. Really no need actually. Its mechanically direct. You can also see them. More importantly, things happen relative fast and you can immediately feel them since the plane is incredibly light (think 1-2 tons).

On a submarine its much different as @bflynn said. First off you can't see outside. Next, you aren't really going that fast and often purposely very slow. The Trident was displacing around 18,000 tons!!!

So the guys at the controls sit and watch the course, depth, ships bubble (our pitch angle). The is another inclinometer for roll (forget the name) but that (for us, back then) was only to really measure rolls due to wx.

Our version of AP had 3 modes. Off (all manual). Auto (ships computer ran that surface). And a very simple assist that indicated what the computer would do but did not control the surface. Our "AP" was decent and straight and level. But the start of a turn, end of turn, start of depth change, and end of depth change has some oscillation. In a sense the PID controller probably need a bit more Ki and Kd (integrator and derivative). I am sure its all worked out now :) But back then it lacked that "experience" element that knew to lead and check things for efficiency.

Example of a course change:

They turn the rudder via a yoke not a lot different than in our old 182. Note: NO PEDALS!!! There is no force feedback as your turn the yoke. A good helmsman will use enough rudder to get the big old cow swinging in the right direction - but not cavitate the rudder! You have to keep the rudder in that position to keep turning. That same good helmsman will have done that turn and speed combination before (or something like it) and will know to "check" with opposite rudder at the right time and amount to not overshoot course. Just zeroing the rudder in advance will take forever to swing it onto the final course. Plus the turn rate will not be consistent. Who decides the course change? Usually the Officer Of The Deck (OOD) will command the new course and rudder angle to use for the turn (exception: see Conning Officer below). They know the turn rates of the boat at different bells (speeds) so kind of like knowing standard turns. Its been a lot of years so some verbiage is probably wrong but if often goes like this. They are about 5-15ft from each other so no headset is needed:

OOD: "Helm right 20 degrees rudder, make your course 112"
Helm: "Right 20 degrees rudder, make my course 112 helm aye"
...a bit later...
Helm: "Rudder is right 20 degrees".
DOOW: Watches over the helm to make sure he maintains depth and the proper turn.
....a bit later...
Helm: "Passing 0 degrees to the right"
....a bit later...
Helm: "Steady on course 112".

The jargon is a bit different than aviation but very heavy with exact repeat backs.

Depth changes and bubble are somewhat similar but the DOOW (Diving Officer of the watch) gets very involved as its his responsibility.

OOD: "Dive 10 degrees up angle, make your depth 200ft"
DOOW: "10 degrees up angle, make depth 200ft, Dive aye"

The DOOW then privately "instructs" the helm (who also controls the front planes) and the stern planes station (pitch) to make the changes need.
Both stations lead with enough control changes to get it moving but in this case the stern planes can zero out once the angle is established (like a plane).
eventually the angle is reduced and fine depth control is established an you will hear something like:

DOOW: "Officer of the deck 200ft" {or something like that}

...that callout is very important when transitioning to periscope depth where fine adjustments will be needed.


The Conning Officer:
Underway the the Officer Of The Deck is actually standing two roles. The Officer Of The Deck and the Conning Officer. The Conning Officer is who orders turns, depth changes, etc. In movies (and in real life) the Captain will typically take the 'Con' during battle stations or drills or if he is generally displeased with what it going on regarding safety, etc. Then you might hear this interesting exchange:

Captain: "I have the con"
OOD/CON: "Captain has the con, I have the deck"
Helm: "Captain has the con helm aye"

An even more interesting exchange (a very unhappy Captain) can do this (I was there it was not pretty to hear)

Captain: "Lt ABC I relieve you, I have the deck and the con"
OOD/CON: "Captain has the deck and the con, I stand relieved"
Helm: "Captain has the con, helm aye"
Click to expand...
Wow! Such a cool collection of talented people we have on this board

Question.. is there any simulator that can train people or is your first time behind the yoke your first time driving a big boat?

Had no idea the rudder can cavitate. Can the dive planes also cavitate?
 
My first time was "actual". But we did have a full motion simulator :)

We had Fairwater planes (on the sail). At high speeds with heavy deflection they would cavitate. They weren't supposed to be used at high speeds. I can remember on one occasion at flank speeds relatively close to the surface they were needed to recover depth control. It sounded like the sail would rip off! Usually only the stern planes are used for angle and depth at high speeds but in this particular case (no, not any type of emergency) the extra downward force was required.

A great helm/plane will maintain course manually to 1/2 degree or less and I recall depth keeping to just feet not including periscope depth in heavy sea states (think 15ft...35ft waves). And they get good at making the transitions quickly without overshoot and low noise use of the surfaces. The best helm does the full maneuvering to/from the pier and out far enough where a regular watch can take over.
 
Okay, awesome. One more question I've always wondered, from what point on the submarine is the depth actually measured? For instance, if the submarine is 200 ft underwater is that from the top of the sail, the bottom of the keel, etc.?
 
Bottom.

For a submerged Ohio Class at 100ftsw the top of the sail is something like 35ft from the surface (rough guess).

If you ever see a picture of a sub on the surface, especially tied up, there are painted draft markings front and back. I seem to recall ours during refit (light, most tanks empty) reading over 35ft or something like that. Its kinda like a iceberg LOL! Also hard to believe, I think a Trident has a surface draft relatively close to that of a Nimitz class carrier. For example, the Tridents being completed at Electric Boat in Groton couldn't sail up the Thames to the Sub base due to river depth.
 
If you look at this image the markings on the side start at 40, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4,... so a 6 = 36ft to bottom

1920px-Good_Luck_Ohio.jpeg
 
Fun thread. Side notes since I’ve been going down the submarine rabbit hole at night for entertainment... freshwater planes have pretty much gone away on all new classes. Haven’t seen reasons why, but sub experts keep noting it in videos.

Also ran across this and just marveled at the freaking sheer size of the Typhoon and the crazy azz design. Probably one of the first videos that sent me down the “let’s find some more submarine tech content” late night rabbit hole. Where info is available / not classified of course. Ha. Interesting history as well as some nifty photos in that one of construction.


Having grown up when people were likely literally dying to get photos like those — it’s always a tad of a shock to realize that particular set of “secrets and lies” is old news and just out there on YouTube these days.

That particular YT channel is just some dude who was a sonar guy and earned his dolphins in 1991. He was involved in certifying boats after serving on them. He does “briefings” on the old stuff and some whiteboard talks and also some gaming using the game “Cold Waters” (I’m not a huge gamer and definitely not someone who follows submarine simulation games — so an episode or two of that is interesting but I wouldn’t be a regular viewer of livestreams) and associated user mods to that game.

I’m also aware from other reading and such and his own admissions that he’s holding back on a few things — especially in his specialty of sonar — that can be read about these days but he’s probably still not allowed to talk about, the usual “it’s on the front cover of Aviation Leak!”, yeah... that’s nice... nobody can talk about anything anywhere even close to that topic... heh...

There’s a number of other channels with interesting submarine stuff, but I’ll let y’all find those and head down the rabbit hole if you like. Haha.

Ahh late night time sinks... At least it’s more interesting than anything on regular TV...

Used to work for a boss who was a retired Submarine XO. Some funny and interesting stories and discussions with him.

Earning dolphins definitely ain’t no small feat. That’s a bunch o’ work.

Oh right... that was what started it. Remembered...

The popular YT channel “Smarter Every Day” and the host Destin, were invited aboard a Los Angeles Class (as I recall) with cameras and did a number of extended videos on various topics. Much more interesting than a fully scripted TV documentary.

Anyway, those are worth a watch too.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLjHf9jaFs8XWoGULb2HQRvhzBclS1yimW

Also been deep into the rabbit hole of Battleship history this year. No idea why. Always hunting interesting naval history and ran across Drachinifel’s YT channel and the official channel put out by the curator of Battleship New Jersey, both excellent.

If you want a belly laugh - Drach’s storytelling of the Russian 2nd Pacific Squadron titled “Voyage of the Damned” is by far one of the most tragic and laughable tellings of that story I’ve ever come across. His script was so funny even Karen agreed to watch it and laughed hard at it.


It’s a multi-parter.

“Annnnnnd... the Kamchatka!” has been added to our vocabulary at home when making fun of someone or some scenario where something has gone inexplicably off the rails due to utter incompetence in a hilariously bad way.

Recently all the naval channels have done interesting Pearl Harbor topics. Drach did an amazingly detailed series on the salvage efforts and the Battleship New Jersey curator, Ryan (I won’t try to spell his last name...) did some interesting stuff also.

Drach was recently laid off in the UK from his days job as a road works engineer but his channel and other work have led to him saying he’s striking out into making the naval history stuff his full time gig. Neat. Hope he does well with it.

Karen was shocked when I showed her one of his live feeds... “But he sounds like a little old British professor or something like that!” Haha.

Accents and voice overs and the pictures of the narrator that we get in our heads...

Battleship NJ is here...

https://youtube.com/c/BattleshipNewJersey

And as a side thing to the naval history, both The History Guy and Dr Mark Felton have amazing YT content.

It’s almost pitiful that these one-person history channels can just kick the holy crap out of professionally done TV documentaries.

Someone quipped that Felton’s two channels are like watching the original History channel — that rarely does History content anymore — on steroids.

Anyway. Here’s those guys...
History Guy

https://youtube.com/c/TheHistoryGuyChannel

Mark Felton

https://youtube.com/channel/UCfCKvREB11-fxyotS1ONgww

... and his audio only one...

https://youtube.com/channel/UCR3L1IGpxPDuHWQjqfz608g

Okay enjoy those and getting sucked in...
LOL!
 
Depth was measured two way. Most important is depth under the surface because if you go too deep, the hull cracks and lots of water gets into the people tank. Lots of water. Bad water.

But for navigation, we (that is, the navigators) kept an eye on the bottom because a captain that runs their ship aground stops being a captain. Unfortunately, not every undersea mountain is charted, but big ocean theory works usually.

measurement point is the keel.
 
bflynn said:
Agree, nope. Just not moving fast enough and you're never looking outside, so there is no "spatial".

Older boats, two crew members are driving and they each have different tasks - one to maintain pitch, the other for course and depth. Of course, that's a team work exercise. As noted, newer boats have a joystick, so it more like a motion simulated video game.
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That sounds so boring compared to the old WWII submarine movies. I'll bet you don't even have giant metal wheels in the control room to trim the saddle tanks any more. :) Is there at least still a klaxon that goes "ah-OOOO-ga, ah-OOOO-ga" all the time to maintain the dramatic tension?
 
David Megginson said:
That sounds so boring compared to the old WWII submarine movies. I'll bet you don't even have giant metal wheels in the control room to trim the saddle tanks any more. :) Is there at least still a klaxon that goes "ah-OOOO-ga, ah-OOOO-ga" all the time to maintain the dramatic tension?
Click to expand...

And don't forget about the exploding light bulbs and dial faces.
 
David Megginson said:
That sounds so boring compared to the old WWII submarine movies. I'll bet you don't even have giant metal wheels in the control room to trim the saddle tanks any more. :) Is there at least still a klaxon that goes "ah-OOOO-ga, ah-OOOO-ga" all the time to maintain the dramatic tension?
Click to expand...

Thankfully no big wheels. And I forgot about the old diesel boats, they actually had 3 people driving. The two big wheels were for the bow planes and stern planes respectively. There were two separate stations for the rudder, one in the control room and one in the conning tower so the helmsman could be close to the Officer of the Deck. The wheels had nothing to do with the saddle tanks, they were used to trim the boat up and down and change depth using the planes, not flooding or blowing tanks. You could both go up slightly and the boat would stay level and change depth. Or you could use the planes to point the boat up or down and just drive it in that direction.

"Aerodynamics" of a submarine are different than an airplane. First, there's a lot of weight in the keel, so it's primarily stable by having a low CG, push it over and it will return. As Sinister said above, there is no roll because the planes turn in the same direction, so no twisting. At high speeds, you could get a roll as the boat turned. Otherwise, it's yaw and pitch only and using neutral buoyancy for depth control rather than Newton.

Depending on the boat, there might still be a klaxon. My first boat was a Skipjack class and still had one. My last boat was an LA class, the last with fairwater planes, and it wasn't the traditional sound, more like a hoarse buzz.
 
bflynn said:
And the old torpedo chief who drowns saving the boat. Makes me cry every time :(
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Yeah. And the guy who has to close the door while looking through the window as the water goes up - either on his side or the other.

--

I remember my nephew saying, "I don't want to die underwater, it's COLD!"
 
And in Das Boot, rivets from the pressure hull are shooting out like popcorn. There was an interview with a U-boat vet who said that if just one rivet had popped out of the pressure hull in real life, they'd have been terrified.
 
David Megginson said:
And in Das Boot, rivets from the pressure hull are shooting out like popcorn. There was an interview with a U-boat vet who said that if just one rivet had popped out of the pressure hull in real life, they'd have been terrified.
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To be fair, if they sank and were sitting on the bottom in the dark with no electricity and no way out, I imagine they'd be pretty scared too. IMO, Das Boot is by far the most realistic submarine movie. It captures the grittiness, the danger and the simple physics and technology that was used. I know (knew) WW-II guys who said they had PTSD symptoms just from watching it. Even for me, it causes a reaction and I've never been in that situation, but I can clearly understand it.
 
IK04 said:
I learned everything I know about submarines from Ice Station Zebra.
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Me too. We'd play it on the mess decks and it was the only movie NUBs were allowed to watch. Guys would rant about the issues and discuss the problems in detail. It turned out being educational.

NUB - non useful body, someone not qualified who just ate food, filled the san tank and breathed air. Also, rarely applied to a Chief.
 
DINK: You're a dink when you don't earn enough qual signatures in a week towards your dolphins. So you get put on the dink (delinquent) list.

I loved movies on the mess decks. I was responsible for movies and we'd get like 3 or 4 BETA (yes Beta) tapes ever couple weeks in off crew. There were Beta players on board. Okay but...

A couple days before the patrol left I would grab that huge dodge 4x4 and head over to the skimmer base. I would literally load the entire friggin pickup box full of 16mm movie reels. It would take like 10 guys to run them all down. I'd usually grab a few Cinemascope releases if they had the swing in lens available. My favorite was starting a Cinemascope movie at about 930pm. By midrats I swear the entire noon-1800 watch and half the midwatch guys were watching :)

Re: No more fairwater planes.

First off. Way more effective since its at the end opposite the stern planes. In an emergency dive or emergency deep for periscope depth it would be more effective. Another PITA with fairwater planes is when at periscope depth if you come up a bit to high and broach the big waves will run under them and hammer the hell out of them and exaggerate the broach. For ice they need to full rotate 90deg. Not all boats support that. Msybe modern ones can retract bow planes.

I would think the major issue with bow planes would be tug boat personnel transfers, etc. Now the tug has to stay clear of the stern and the bow. When I was in a tug lost power and the vertical stabilizer on the stern planes (USS Georgia, not my boat) sliced right thru the tug and it sunk like within a minute or so with fatality.

Another tidbit. The screws on the tugs have enough force to slice right thru the main ballast tanks :eek: I think that tug that sunk had first tried to turn away but it was to sharp of a turn so screw ruptured MBT 5 (stbd half). Crazy!!

And to a previous poster...sitting helm/planes was usually very boring. That's why there was a salty 300yr old Senior Chief sitting Dive right behind you. By your first 10 watches you had learned cuss words you never knew existed. You've been slapped on the side of the like 25 times. He's reminded you your GF is bsck home banging a Marine. And...he tells the best damned jokes ever :)
 
Last semi-serious question (and you may kill me if you have to once answered, due to the secrecy involved).
Do any subs have TCAS?
(I presume they mostly all have some version of GPWS - ie sonar or something much more modern)
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Last semi-serious question (and you may kill me if you have to once answered, due to the secrecy involved).
Do any subs have TCAS?
(I presume they mostly all have some version of GPWS - ie sonar or something much more modern)
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I'm sorry, but I'd have to kill you. If you ever fly with me, you might think I'm trying to.

In seriousness, I think we've both been walking on the edge of what we should be talking about, maybe a little over the edge at times. Capabilities and missions are still under wraps and classified. There is sonar, but I can't say much about it's capabilities, how it works or what it lets us do.
 
Civilian shipping uses AIS...a lot like ADSB! Whether Navy craft have it...or use it is up to them. That's surface stuff.

@Let'sgoflying question seems to be more about submerged operations. I actually know nothing about TCAS being a lowly PPL in a 48yr old airplane! But if it means collision or terrain avoidance then Navy stuff along those lines is hush.
 
bflynn said:
To be fair, if they sank and were sitting on the bottom in the dark with no electricity and no way out, I imagine they'd be pretty scared too. IMO, Das Boot is by far the most realistic submarine movie. It captures the grittiness, the danger and the simple physics and technology that was used. I know (knew) WW-II guys who said they had PTSD symptoms just from watching it. Even for me, it causes a reaction and I've never been in that situation, but I can clearly understand it.
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We had a Yeoman transfer to our boat from a "Dev" boat. He was telling us about the time they were involved in kind of underwater explosive testing. He said they (someone else) would detonate various sized high explosives packages near the sub. When he told the story you could see how freaked out he was. I remember that better than the details. He said some guys lost it, it was that friggin intense.
 
I've heard that story. There's nothing I can find about it on the internet and if it's true they have to put it on the internet.
 
My only sub stories were a tour with a couple other Aviators of the Ohio more than 20 years ago when she was stationed in Bangor and a tour of the U-505 at the museum of science and industry in Chicago. The differences were "significant" :D

Well, I did have a buddy who was involved in some early testing of the Ohio class where they ran them between rows of sensors to see how quiet they were. He said the only way to tell it was there was because it got quieter due to the boat blocking ambient noise from the other side of the array. This was well more than 30 years ago!
 
I took a tour of a diesel sub in Oregon in 2019. I noticed how much less limber I am than the last time I visited one many years ago!
 
Getting out to the Blueback is one of my goals. But, other side of the country and I don't get out there often.
 
I was also surprised to feel claustrophobic in it. I didn't feel that the previous time. (That one was in San Francisco.)
 
Palmpilot said:
I took a tour of a diesel sub in Oregon in 2019. I noticed how much less limber I am than the last time I visited one many years ago!
Click to expand...

Lol! The battleship NJ guy did a video crawling the length of one of her 16” guns and also one crawling the catacomb spaces between the main armor plate and Broadway.

Noooooope. Not doing that! Haha.

Pretty neat though. He pointed out some 40s, 70s, and 80s graffiti written in those spaces left by some sailor trying to find a tiny bit of privacy and humor... in each decade. Ha.

Just the standard hatch dives look painful to me. Let alone those spaces!

He also has one climbing the New Jersey’s conning tower bottom to top. And some funny commentary about the original Captain’s day quarters up there... “The old man probably didn’t want to climb eight decks...” “the space was re-purposed by the Navy on all the Iowas — they probably thought it would be used more.”
 
Palmpilot said:
I was also surprised to feel claustrophobic in it. I didn't feel that the previous time. (That one was in San Francisco.)
Click to expand...

Touring diesel boats never bothered me--I knew I could exit anytime I wanted--but I was certainly aware of how small they are, and knew that serving on one couldn't have been much fun.

I've dove on a few sunken ones, and trying to maneuver around inside with double tanks, poor visibility, and endless entanglement hazards is a much more claustrophobic experience. And even that is certainly a lot less scary than serving on one in wartime.
 
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