Do pilots still navigate?

[Plano Pilot]

I will admit the last time I set down and plotted a trip was in February 1998. It was not even for an airplane it was for a boat. We were going from Miami to Bimini in a sailboat and used the forecast gulfstream current on my CR3 to figure the best heading out of Miami. It must have worked because we hit Bimini with only minor corrections. Our friends that we followed out of the Miami Ship Channel were swept north and arrived several hours after us.

Chalk's flying boat landing next to us at anchor in Bimini.

 

[Velocity173]

We still emphasize dead reckoning and pilotage as part of undergraduate low-level training, and some VFR nav sorties in the navigation block. We have the ability of taking the GPS line away from them, though these days all the students fly with geo-referenced EFBs so it's difficult to haze them with dead reckoning anymore

Yep, we still did paper as a backup and routinely removed the GPS from the student as well. Now, in civilian flying do I need that type of redundancy? Nah. If my GPS and EFB take a dump, the majority of the time I can either get ATC help or just use pilotage.

 

[NHWannabe]

You know, apparently from my comments about pitching paper charts and plates within reach, I think people are getting the idea that I reject modern navigational tools. Nothing could be further from the truth. My Mooney has 430W, JPI, 345, an iPhone on the yoke and FF on my lap with ADS-B IN/OUT on the 430, the phone and the pad. My Little Cessna has ILS capability, an ADS-B IN/OUT transponder, a phone on the yoke, a Pad in my lap and will have a 420 in the panel before I fly it again this week. Does that sound like someone who denies the value of current technology?

I am retired from a career in electronics and automation system development. The automation world is filled with redundant systems. My mentality, when it comes to control systems and other mission critical instrumentation and controls, is all about redundancy. Even on a control system with programmable controllers and computer based control systems to the max, there is still an old fashioned red mushroom emergency stop switch to interrupt power and shut everything down immediately. There are also paper based procedures for various emergency situations.

So why am I such a villain because I choose to take a “just in case” approach?

Not a villain but you keep insisting that people who have triple redundancy with a GPS, iPad and iPhone should continue to carry paper charts. I'm guessing that the odds of all 3 of those devices go feet up on the same flight are akin to winning Mega Millions, Powerball and becoming an astronaut on the same weekend.

 

[WDD]

I was flying back from Louisville to Atlanta last weekend and the Garmin 430 died. So did the transponder. So I used the I Pad, second com, and Flight following. I didn’t fly following railroad tracks and reading water towers.

And no.... I’m not renting that plane again anytime soon LOL .

 

[Half Fast]

I may have mentioned before I was a bit of a scofflaw in my younger days.

I needed to prove I was a student to get a discount on an Icelandic Airways flight to Europe. I wasn’t, so I made my own ID. This was before home computers, so I used the emblem from a Pickett slide rule manual for my fake university.

And it worked!

Eddie, shouldn’t you have a diploma from Pickett by now? Probably a BS in BS.....

 

[Ghery]

Back in the old days (20 years ago) when I was working on my private ticket my CFI had your first solo XC from KOLM to KKLS. 51 nm. A traditional IFR (I Follow Roads) route. Straight down I-5. If you could get lost on that flight you really needed to find a different way to dispose of your excess money. You did not need any electronics for that flight, other than to talk to ground and the tower at KOLM.

 

[MBDiagMan]

But - didn't work out for all of those others who disappeared without a trace, and others whose remains were found. Didn't work for Amelia. Those are not odds that I'm shooting for.

The "do pilots still navigate" assumes that using GPS isn't navigating. Whether you use a compass, a sextant, ADF. Loran, DME, VOR - or even GPS - is still using aids for navigation. It's just how smart do you want to be about it. You don't get brownie points for making things harder than they need to be just because that was they way it was done. Do you have electric lights in your home? Should you not only use candles and whale oil lamps because the electricity might go out?

Good grief man! I use a minimum of two GPS units when I fly including panel mounted IFR certified panel mounted and various portable units. What else do you want? I toss a few pieces of paper in the event of that off chance. Just how in the world am I making things harder? Good grief!

Yeah, that Lindberg was an idiot and also Amelia were idiots for not using a GPS.

 

[MBDiagMan]

Not a villain but you keep insisting that people who have triple redundancy with a GPS, iPad and iPhone should continue to carry paper charts. I'm guessing that the odds of all 3 of those devices go feet up on the same flight are akin to winning Mega Millions, Powerball and becoming an astronaut on the same weekend.

where did I insist on ANYTHING? I would like to reread that post.

 

[WDD]

Good grief man! I use a minimum of two GPS units when I fly including panel mounted IFR certified panel mounted and various portable units. What else do you want? I toss a few pieces of paper in the event of that off chance. Just how in the world am I making things harder? Good grief!

Yeah, that Lindberg was an idiot and also Amelia were idiots for not using a GPS.

It’s where you stated that any use of GPS was not worthy of a real pilot. I believe those were your exact words.......

 

[Doug Reid]

Flying a Breezy from NC to Oshkosh with an Exxon road map , no gps, only engine instruments and a compass...navigating. The road map blew away over Ohio .

 

[MBDiagMan]

You must be mistaken Doug! There are folks on this thread that imply that such a feat is impossible.

 

[MBDiagMan]

Is that an Albatross? We have one in our museum. In the summer they land it in the lake and use it for a swimming dock.

 

[MBDiagMan]

It’s where you stated that any use of GPS was not worthy of a real pilot. I believe those were your exact words.......

Can you point me toward where I said that? I REALLY don’t think I said that. I certainly don’t think that. I did indeed make a snarky comment about using an E6B, but I really don’t think I wrote what you said.

if you can show me where I wrote that I will apologize to anyone it may have offended, but I really don’t believe I wrote it.

I’ll be standing by.

 

[IK04]

LOL. Sadly I tend toward turning on the GPS on the phone in the car these days, not because I need the directions but because of the handful of times the real-time traffic data would have saved me from sitting in an accident-caused traffic jam.

That’s the real killer app of automotive GPS. Traffic based re-routing.

It’d be nice if the software was smart enough just to say “Take your usual route, it’s clear. I’ll let you know if something happens ahead.” And then it shuts the hell up. Ha.

Certainly doable since they’re all keeping your travel data.

That is what we call (self)deterministic properties in navigation software. It is a real thing.

 

[IK04]

Stop using the vacuum radio powered by a wet vacuum pump and use modern solid state electronics and failure rate will dramatically decrease.

Huh?

Man, I would sure like to see the make and model of that vacuum powered radio! Too bad that would create a single point of failure whereby your gyros and radio would fail at the same time.

Maybe a steam powered backup system would add redundancy.

 

[MBDiagMan]

It’s where you stated that any use of GPS was not worthy of a real pilot. I believe those were your exact words.......

I have reread every one of my posts in this thread and can’t find anything even remotely similar to what you claim that I wrote. Unless you can show that I wrote such a thing, I believe an apology would be in order.

 

[kath]

If you want to get somewhere: GPS.
If you want to have the most fun getting somewhere: Pilotage.

 

[WDD]

I have reread every one of my posts in this thread and can’t find anything even remotely similar to what you claim that I wrote. Unless you can show that I wrote such a thing, I believe an apology would be in order.

It’s right before you said Lindbergh was a weak pilot because he used a compass. And where you said Amelia was actually a spy for the Japanese. Those were your exact words. Somewhat .......

(Hey - I’m trolling you - thought it was so outlandish it would be obvious. Of course you never said “not worthy of a real pilot”. . )

 

[AKBill]

I always have a sectional folded that covers the direction of my flight. I use the GPS for ground speed and ETA. Most of my flights lately are to airports I have been to many times and are less than 1 1/2 hours flight time. I know the terrain and the airports traffic patterns.

I do a detail flight review when doing a cross country .with com frequencies and runway traffic patterns

 

[JOhnH]

You must be mistaken Doug! There are folks on this thread that imply that such a feat is impossible.

You must have forgotten the green font because nobody ever said that.
Some may have said they don't feel it is necessary.
Some may have said it might be more dangerous.
But nobody said it is impossible.

Do you still get up to twist knobs on the TV to change channels? (Actually, that might be impossible. My TV doesn't have knobs).

 

[midlifeflyer]

Same here, although I found that Waze was too anal about saving 1 minute, and would use some really strange routings through neighborhoods. Now I stick to either Apple Maps or Google Maps.

I've also seen the ones where attempting to save two minutes due to traffic just puts you into a new traffic snarl on the new route. Still like Waze best but, as in flight, we still have to use some judgment.

 

[eman1200]

When I’m flying in IMC I bring a blank piece of paper. Helps me navigate. Kinda.

 

[WDD]

When I’m flying in IMC I bring a blank piece of paper. Helps me navigate. Kinda.

I just close my eyes and use the force.

 

[NHWannabe]

where did I insist on ANYTHING? I would like to reread that post.

You should go back and reread what you posted.

Post 11

I have to admit, even though I learned with a paper chart, plotter and E6B in 1992, I fly with an IPad in my lap, an iPhone on the yoke and, depending on the plane, a 430 or 420 in the panel. I DO, however, keep a chart and paper plates at hand even though it’s usually outdated. In my opinion, relying solely on electronic wizardry with no manual, non electric dependent means of navigation whatsoever is asking for trouble.

Post 46

Sounds as if you believe that it is impossible for electronics to fail. If so, are you willing to bet your life on that?

Post 53 in response to a poster that stated they have 2 iphones and an iPad

That’s all well and good. What about a GPS black out? It won’t matter how many gadgets you have. A few old charts for your route within reach could make the difference. It happens.

Post 61 in response to a poster that stated they have a phone and iPad

I won’t bash you. I too want to never use a paper chart again. The difference between you and I, however, is that I believe that there may be an emergency some day where I will be very relieved to have a chart, even an expired one, within reach. Electrical and mechanical things spit up sometimes.

Someone said that if the panel quit, they would have charts on their pad. Believe it or not, pads fail sometimes too.


Post 63 in response to a poster who stated they still have a sectional on their iPad if there is a GPS failure/blackout

...and I hope that neither of us ever find a paper sectional necessary, but there could be a time when you would really like to have one handy.

I’m a belt and suspenders kind of guy. Backup systems are the norm for me. Most of my career was in the automation industry. In automation, especially where human safety is involved, redundancy is everything,

 

[chemgeek]

The premise reminds me of the catastrophic language that accompanied the advent of calculators and graphing programs in science education. The world did not come to an end if students didn't routinely use log tables or graph paper to do their work. New technologies open up new opportunities and levels of sophistication.

I do enjoy looking out the window and seeing that the moving map matches my view. But do I navigate VFR XC solely by pilotage anymore? No. (Can I do it in an emergency? Of course.) Neither do I turn off my ADS-B weather and fly IFR in the blind with occasional calls to flight service to get a verbal description of the weather in front of me. I'm not putting my vacuum pump and analog gauges back in either. Technology marches on.

 

[wayne]

Pilotage? Even in the sunshine that isn't always a good option.

 

[EdFred]

My last flight was by pilotage. At night.

 

[Marshall Alexander]

Sometime some of you guys should look at old accident reports. Go ahead, might be edumacational. Used to be a percentage of airplane accidents were people getting lost, running out of gas. and crashing. Happened regularly. Wasn't the most common cause of accidents, but it happened. Pilotage is great until you hose it up. You don't really see those sorts of accidents anymore.

Nowadays, not so much as getting lost, as it is to VFR pilots getting into IMC..........because they have GPS and think it's OK. Still though today, weather and running out of gas is what kills more pilots than anything.

 

[luvflyin]

When I’m flying in IMC I bring a blank piece of paper. Helps me navigate. Kinda.

Crumple it up a little to simulate turbulence.

 

[MBDiagMan]

You should go back and reread what you posted.

Post 11

I have to admit, even though I learned with a paper chart, plotter and E6B in 1992, I fly with an IPad in my lap, an iPhone on the yoke and, depending on the plane, a 430 or 420 in the panel. I DO, however, keep a chart and paper plates at hand even though it’s usually outdated. In my opinion, relying solely on electronic wizardry with no manual, non electric dependent means of navigation whatsoever is asking for trouble.

Post 46

Sounds as if you believe that it is impossible for electronics to fail. If so, are you willing to bet your life on that?

Post 53 in response to a poster that stated they have 2 iphones and an iPad

That’s all well and good. What about a GPS black out? It won’t matter how many gadgets you have. A few old charts for your route within reach could make the difference. It happens.

Post 61 in response to a poster that stated they have a phone and iPad

I won’t bash you. I too want to never use a paper chart again. The difference between you and I, however, is that I believe that there may be an emergency some day where I will be very relieved to have a chart, even an expired one, within reach. Electrical and mechanical things spit up sometimes.

Someone said that if the panel quit, they would have charts on their pad. Believe it or not, pads fail sometimes too.


Post 63 in response to a poster who stated they still have a sectional on their iPad if there is a GPS failure/blackout

...and I hope that neither of us ever find a paper sectional necessary, but there could be a time when you would really like to have one handy.

I’m a belt and suspenders kind of guy. Backup systems are the norm for me. Most of my career was in the automation industry. In automation, especially where human safety is involved, redundancy is everything,

So, in those posts I was INSISTING?. Whatever you say.

 

[luvflyin]

When I’m flying in IMC I bring a blank piece of paper. Helps me navigate. Kinda.

You'll need something to write with on it.
This is a mid-century modern 1965 Word Processor. It features a serial graphite output with built-in manual error correction. (see photo)
It is a vintage #2 model in classic yellow. When fully sharpened it's capable of spitting out thousands of words! This model works on various types of computer paper, notebook paper, and even graph paper!
It writes in both English and Spanish. The instructions indicate it can also write in Mandarin Chinese , but I've never been able to get that function to work. (Perhaps due to operator error.)
This deluxe model can also do mathematical equations (formally called Arithmetic) and some scientific notations. But it takes practice to master. I've observed my grandson using it to sketch dogs and landscapes. But it's glitchy. When I try to use this feature it will go into "safe-mode" and only draws stick figures.
To be clear, it's a used item with no bite marks, but also no guarantees. It comes with several useful fonts, including one that matches your exact handwriting! I've refurbished it so it works both left or right handed. Batteries not included and not necessary.

 

[eman1200]

You'll need something to write with on it.
This is a mid-century modern 1965 Word Processor. It features a serial graphite output with built-in manual error correction. (see photo)
It is a vintage #2 model in classic yellow. When fully sharpened it's capable of spitting out thousands of words! This model works on various types of computer paper, notebook paper, and even graph paper!
It writes in both English and Spanish. The instructions indicate it can also write in Mandarin Chinese , but I've never been able to get that function to work. (Perhaps due to operator error.)
This deluxe model can also do mathematical equations (formally called Arithmetic) and some scientific notations. But it takes practice to master. I've observed my grandson using it to sketch dogs and landscapes. But it's glitchy. When I try to use this feature it will go into "safe-mode" and only draws stick figures.
To be clear, it's a used item with no bite marks, but also no guarantees. It comes with several useful fonts, including one that matches your exact handwriting! I've refurbished it so it works both left or right handed. Batteries not included and not necessary.
View attachment 95517 View attachment 95518

BUT WHAT IF IT FAILS?!??! IT CAN HAPPEN!!!! WHERE IS YOUR BACKUP???!!????

 

[luvflyin]

BUT WHAT IF IT FAILS?!??! IT CAN HAPPEN!!!! WHERE IS YOUR BACKUP???!!????

 

[midlifeflyer]

The premise reminds me of the catastrophic language that accompanied the advent of calculators and graphing programs in science education. The world did not come to an end if students didn't routinely use log tables or graph paper to do their work. New technologies open up new opportunities and levels of sophistication.

You can probably find Chicken Little comments associated with every advance. I'm certain there were folks complaining around the fire how the wheel was going to turn the next generation into weaklings by making carrying things too damn easy!

 

[Adam Weiss]

I was flying back from Louisville to Atlanta last weekend and the Garmin 430 died. So did the transponder. So I used the I Pad, second com, and Flight following. I didn’t fly following railroad tracks and reading water towers.

And no.... I’m not renting that plane again anytime soon LOL .

Wow, glad you were VMC!
And I wouldn't rent it again, either!

 

[kgruber]

I am sure of one thing...................drop me ANYWHERE in the 11 western states.............and I could fly home without ANY NAV at all. All I did for 20 years was crisscross that area every day, for the Bon' Marche/Macy's

 

[asicer]

I'm certain there were folks complaining around the fire how the wheel was going to turn the next generation into weaklings by making carrying things too damn easy!

Yeah, just goes to show how bad people have become ever since this fire thing was invented. You never saw people complain like that when they had to go to sleep at sundown. Staying up after dark turned the next generation into weaklings by giving too much time for unfocused thinking.

 

[Somedudeintn]

I use a GPS often but learned to fly with paper charts and a /A plane. While I use the GPS typically to Navigate I’m constantly aware of where my nearest airport it and my current general location. If i had a GPS outage I would likely continue to my destination just looking outside to verify my position against the chart as long as it is VMC. I do carry a paper chart for my local area in case an EMP hits. I update it about once a year.

 

[NHWannabe]

So, in those posts I was INSISTING?. Whatever you say.

You're now arguing semantics...you told someone who stated they had triple redundacy (2 iPhones and an iPad) that "The difference between you and I, however, is that I believe that there may be an emergency some day where I will be very relieved to have a chart, even an expired one, within reach. Electrical and mechanical things spit up sometimes. Someone said that if the panel quit, they would have charts on their pad. Believe it or not, pads fail sometimes too."

How would you describe that? Harrasing? I know better? Sectional Shaming?

Good day to you sir.

 

[Tantalum]

Such a bazaar thing to argue over. In my opinion a paper sectional backup is a complete waste and is in the same category as carrying around a phone book and a sextant. If someone is genuinely concerned that they might have a quadruple GPS/phone/ipad/430/electrical failure where the sectional in reach is going to save their lives then I'd say your luck has run so thin that this will be the same day you also forget the sectional, or it slipped out of the flight bag and is lodged somewhere under the rear seat. Hopelessly out of reach!

Also.. should such a situation suddenly unfold (GPS satellites go down, ipad overheats, phone battery died, electrical panel fails so you can't pan the 650 map).. can't you still call 121.5? Don't you still have SOME idea of where the heck you are?

There's one person on this thread who came out swinging up front and dug their heels in over how someone is asking for trouble without a paper backup. These tools aren't some dark art.. GPS, and even something like a 430, have been around for decades.

Having said all that, if someone wants to carry an outdated sectional around as a backup that's fine, more power to them.. but it's not fair to admonish those who don't.