AndrewX
Pre-takeoff checklist
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Andrew
That's the rule. Unless one of the conditions listed in 91.175(j) exists, a procedure turn is mandatory. Simple and easy to apply.You're not on vectors, there's no "NoPT" route. That's a procedure turn.
That's the rule. Unless one of the conditions listed in 91.175(j) exists, a procedure turn is mandatory. Simple and easy to apply.
I never quite got the "avoid a procedure turn at all costs" bug...in fact, eventually I realized it was often substantially quicker than vectors to final.That's the rule. Unless one of the conditions listed in 91.175(j) exists, a procedure turn is mandatory. Simple and easy to apply.
They do. The definition of a PT in the AIM as a maneuver "prescribed when it is necessary" for a course reversal leads some to think "necessary" is a pilot decision, not a procedure design decision.My instrument students "enjoy" me beating this into their heads. It's actually a very simple rule to apply, but even after reading it, people often try to get creative.
My instrument students "enjoy" me beating this into their heads. It's actually a very simple rule to apply, but even after reading it, people often try to get creative.
However, this very approach is a perfect example of the rules "getting in the way of understanding". Yes, if you have a single VOR you don't know how far away you are, and that's the basis that these approaches were developed for. But any instrument student, once reaching the "correlation" level of knowledge that we hope they achieve, would rightly bring up good points:
- We know that if I conduct a procedure turn, then once I am established on the final approach course (assuming within 10 nm of the VOR), then I can start my final descent.
- However, coming from the north, I could easily establish myself on the final approach course. Since I have a DME or GPS in this airplane, I will at some point know that I am within 10 nm of the VOR. So, why can't I descend then?
At this point, my only real answer is "that's the rules", which works for some students but is profoundly unsatisfying for others.
Some of those people are controllers!My instrument students "enjoy" me beating this into their heads. It's actually a very simple rule to apply, but even after reading it, people often try to get creative.
Alas, always has been, always will be.At this point, my only real answer is "that's the rules", which works for some students but is profoundly unsatisfying for others.
The reason being that the VOR is the IAF and therefore the procedure must begin there when not on vectors??Agree that one would navigate to the VOR, turn to intercept the SYI 332R outbound for the PT.
Yes. If not receiving vectors to intercept the final approach course on this approach (and you won't), an approach must begin somewhere. That somewhere is the "initial approach fix."The reason being that the VOR is the IAF and therefore the procedure must begin there when not on vectors??
I wouldn't...I'd fly a hold on the PT side and only intercept inbound.Agree that one would navigate to the VOR, turn to intercept the SYI 332R outbound for the PT.
In the VOR approach for KSYI, if I'm coming in from the North on a heading of 180:
Cleared for the approach. Not on vectors.
1. Do I need to pass over the SYI VOR first?
2. Do I always have to do the course reversal?
What is your clearance? How did you come to be on that heading of 180?
How would you fly it and NOT go all the way to the VOR?I just made up the scenario while reviewing local approaches. I wanted to be sure I understood this one correctly. I'm still not entirely sure if i have to fly all the way to the VOR or not. I am now quite sure I need to make the course reversal.
In the VOR approach for KSYI, if I'm coming in from the North on a heading of 180:
Cleared for the approach. Not on vectors.
1. Do I need to pass over the SYI VOR first?
2. Do I always have to do the course reversal?
I just made up the scenario while reviewing local approaches. I wanted to be sure I understood this one correctly. I'm still not entirely sure if i have to fly all the way to the VOR or not. I am now quite sure I need to make the course reversal.
I wouldn't...I'd fly a hold on the PT side and only intercept inbound.
It's really only three. The Hold-in-loo and the teardrop ARE procedure turns, they are just mandatory forms of them.4 cases a procedure turn not required:
No-pt
Hold in lieu of PT
Cleared straight in
Being vectored for approach
I just made up the scenario while reviewing local approaches. I wanted to be sure I understood this one correctly. I'm still not entirely sure if i have to fly all the way to the VOR or not. I am now quite sure I need to make the course reversal.
In the VOR approach for KSYI, if I'm coming in from the North on a heading of 180:
Cleared for the approach. Not on vectors.
1. Do I need to pass over the SYI VOR first?
2. Do I always have to do the course reversal?
#5 Timed Approaches4 cases a procedure turn not required:
No-pt
Hold in lieu of PT
Cleared straight in
Being vectored for approach
Nobody else uses SHARP-TT? Or is that something you just use for the oral and throw it away once you're done?#5 Timed Approaches
What the heck is that? Never heard of it until now, although admittedly, I would have ignored it if I had).Nobody else uses SHARP-TT? Or is that something you just use for the oral and throw it away once you're done?
ATC is not suppose to provide vectors to final unless the procedure is on their video map. This type of procedure isn't typically video mapped even in an area of good TRACON coverage. Plus, ATC would have to know where the 10 mile beginning of the final segment is, for the aircraft that doesn't have DME. And, if they vectored you onto the 332 radial beyond 10 miles then you wouldn't be on a published segment of the approach so they would have to provide an altitude to maintain until within 10 miles. Lots of work for ATC with an on-airport, no FAF VOR or NDB IAP.In this case, if you begin the approach from the VOR (IAF) you are required to do the procedure turn. The only instance when this is not the case would be if ATC was vectoring you to the final approach course. HILPT is still a procedure turn, but in this case, with the VOR basically on-field, there is insufficent distance in the hold maneuver in terms of alttiude loss (2000+) from MSA to MDA with a mile for required visibility without extending it quite a bit outbound. The PT barb only indicates that a PT is required and that it be to the left, but the choice of the course reversal is pilot's choice (Racetrack, 80/260, 45/180). If radar available, I'd just ask for vectors onto R-332 and track inbound.
How else are you supposed to get to the final approach course?
I barely fly much IFR at all and never thought this stuff was that complicated. This particular approach is dead simple. Then again I got my rating without GPS. I guess when you learn with a pretty moving map you experience cognitive dissonance when you realize you can't just go anywhere you want.
I also learned before GPS, and while I get this type of question a lot, and have to answer with the textbook answer, I have come to realize that the question isn't a bad one at all. And, while it is directly caused by the prevalence of GPS, it doesn't necessarily mean that the person isn't capable of flying without it. On the contrary, asking this question, to me, shows an attempt at correlating different rules and capabilities.
This most basic type of VOR approach is designed for aircraft with only VOR receivers, and even only one of them. The reason you have to fly all the way to the VOR, turn around and go out on the PT is precisely because with only VOR receivers, you don't know how far you are from the VOR until you are directly over it. And that's a very important consideration, of course.
But if you're flying in an airplane with GPS, that handicap of not knowing exactly where you are is an interesting academic discussion, but difficult to understand why it applies in the "real world".
Like I mentioned before, it's a simple matter with GPS (or even just DME), to know exactly how far you are from the VOR on this approach. The whole reason the rules require you to go all the way to the VOR to do the PT is simply because you don't know your distance from it except when you're directly over it. But if you do know exactly how far you are, then this reason disappears in practical application. Now you are going all the way to the VOR not because of any equipment or technology limitation, but just due to a rules limitation.
A student who leads me down this road of reasoning is, in my opinion, showing a good grasp of correlation of various considerations.
That wasn't what the question was at all.Why can't ATC just give me a heading of 180 to intercept final, then when I'm within 10 miles I can descend" is a valid question. And what's more, it would be perfectly safe too. So my only answer is, "that's the rules".
That wasn't what the question was at all.
What is directly caused by the prevalence of GPS. This question was around long before GPS. In fact, I'd bet @aterpster wrote at least one article about it before any of us saw GPS.I also learned before GPS, and while I get this type of question a lot, and have to answer with the textbook answer, I have come to realize that the question isn't a bad one at all. And, while it is directly caused by the prevalence of GPS, it doesn't necessarily mean that the person isn't capable of flying without it. On the contrary, asking this question, to me, shows an attempt at correlating different rules and capabilities.
What is directly caused by the prevalence of GPS. This question was around long before GPS. In fact, I'd bet @aterpster wrote at least one article about it before any of us saw GPS.
In fact, it might be good for you to read his articles on the subject...you'd be able to give a better answer to your students.
Definitely! There are a few Chief Counsel in the early 1990s and there is even one going back to 1977. I've seen the issue discussed online as long as I have been instrument rated (1992).What is directly caused by the prevalence of GPS. This question was around long before GPS.
What is directly caused by the prevalence of GPS. This question was around long before GPS.
I've been around here long enough to know I might get a pummeling just for asking the question. I still appreciate all the comments. I learn something from all of them.