Do I need a lawyer?

T

Trouble

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First app deferred as expected for medical deficiency. On that app, I answered no to 18n regarding the question of substance abuse and/or use within 2 years.

As I am beginning to compile my records, I see my Doc wrote down a dx of substance abuse on my some records. Now I realize I perjured myself on the form.

Ofcourse, now that I know whats in my records, I will be disclosing all this to the FAA.

I never actually held a medical certificate under false pretenses (which I imagine helps my case), just answered the form and got deferred.

Will the FAA care about this as long as I submit a new app containing a Yes on 18n and all the sufficient records pertaining?

Jeez, I'm giving myself a headache. Thanks to anyone that replies.
 
Yes. Either a lawyer or a senior consulting AME. What you want is a knowledgeable professional who understands the best way to package your correction to minimize the risk to your medical certification and the nastier potential consequences of an inaccurate disclosure.

The fact you were deferred with the "No" indicates your situation is more complex, even more reason for professional advice. Doesn't matter whether the deferral was for a related reason or not.

And even supposedly anonymously, don't say you perjured yourself. Perjury is intentional. What you are describing is not.
 
midlifeflyer said:
And even supposedly anonymously, don't say you perjured yourself. Perjury is intentional. What you are describing is not.
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to be fair, he didn’t say one way or the other whether it was intentional. Maybe he “realized” he perjured himself when he learned the definition of perjury.
 
mcmanigle said:
to be fair, he didn’t say one way or the other whether it was intentional. Maybe he “realized” he perjured himself when he learned the definition of perjury.
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Perjury is intentional. You can't accidentally commit perjury. The OP didn't commit perjury. Even if perjury didn't have to be intentional, the statement of Medxpress is that it's accurate "to the best of your knowledge." An unknowing omission doesn't make that statement false.

Nevertheless, confessions are powerful.
 
Lindberg said:
Perjury is intentional. You can't accidentally commit perjury. The OP didn't commit perjury. Even if perjury didn't have to be intentional, the statement of Medxpress is that it's accurate "to the best of your knowledge." An unknowing omission doesn't make that statement false.

Nevertheless, confessions are powerful.
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Although the FAA may presume guilty.

Sounds to me like confusion over the definition of “abuse”. To use an extreme example, suppose you smoke a single marijuana “joint” only one time, as a teen, then never again. Maybe you didn’t like it, or maybe you got scared straight because you saw Reefer Madness. It was illegal, therefore any recreational use of it is by definition “abuse”. Is that the FAA’s official position and is that written down anywhere? And are applicants informed of that prior to filling out the MedExpress?

Out in the real world, reasonable people wouldn’t call that abuse, unless after smoking that joint you got in your car and caused a pileup by going 30 miles under the speed limit. But if there were no consequences and no impact on your life, I can see an applicant honestly answering “no” to that question.

But what happened here is presumably OP was honest with a doctor about whatever use history he did have, and who knows what criteria that doctor used to discern between “use” and “abuse”. But it is there now. I believe @midlifeflyer is correct, OP needs to make a correction to the application ASAP. (Through his AME? Not sure how the correction process works.)

Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe if you confess and correct proactively before the FAA discovers it on their own you are in much less trouble. It will likely result in more intense scrutiny and expense, because now you must prove you’re not an addict. But at least you still have a shot at getting certified as opposed to hard denial and possible felony charges.
 
Lindberg said:
Perjury is intentional. You can't accidentally commit perjury. The OP didn't commit perjury. Even if perjury didn't have to be intentional, the statement of Medxpress is that it's accurate "to the best of your knowledge." An unknowing omission doesn't make that statement false.
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You are absolutely right. But nowhere in the OP does it say that he forgot, or misremembered his history, or spaced out when answering, or didn’t know he’d used drugs, or anything else exculpatory. He also didn’t say “I lied because I wanted a medical.”

I’m not saying “it’s perjury.” I’m just saying that yours and @midlifeflyer’s statements that it’s not perjury aren’t supported by the OP either. We really have no inkling one way or the other.
 
mcmanigle said:
You are absolutely right. But nowhere in the OP does it say that he forgot, or misremembered his history, or spaced out when answering, or didn’t know he’d used drugs, or anything else exculpatory. He also didn’t say “I lied because I wanted a medical.”

I’m not saying “it’s perjury.” I’m just saying that yours and @midlifeflyer’s statements that it’s not perjury aren’t supported by the OP either. We really have no inkling one way or the other.
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He says he only realized he'd omitted information after he subsequently reviewed documents. The common-sense conclusion to be drawn from that is that, at the the time he filled out the form, he didn't know. That's presumably why Mark indicates that "what [he] is describing" isn't perjury. Plus, whether he committed perjury is for a judge to decide (if, god forbid, it got that far).
 
bradg33 said:
He says he only realized he'd omitted information after he subsequently reviewed documents. The common-sense conclusion to be drawn from that is that, at the the time he filled out the form, he didn't know. That's presumably why Mark indicates that "what [he] is describing" isn't perjury. Plus, whether he committed perjury is for a judge to decide (if, god forbid, it got that far).
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Clearly we’re far from the realm of helping the OP here, so I’ll drop it after this, but he didn’t say he only realized he’d omitted information after he reviewed documents. He said he now realizes he perjured himself on the form. Maybe that’s because the doc’s note refreshed his memory on his drug use / diagnosis, or maybe it’s because those records prompted him to look up the definition of perjury, and before doing that he figured an intentional omission would be no big deal.

Anyway, we can continue to pick it apart any which way but I suspect we’re helping nobody. So I apologize for my role in the drift already.
 
Lindberg said:
Perjury is intentional. You can't accidentally commit perjury. The OP didn't commit perjury. Even if perjury didn't have to be intentional, the statement of Medxpress is that it's accurate "to the best of your knowledge." An unknowing omission doesn't make that statement false.

Nevertheless, confessions are powerful.
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I did NOT know what perjury meant when I used it it seems

I omitted unintentionally. I didn’t read the question properly. After re-examination, it asks “Have you used illegal substances in the last 2 years”, not just “Have you been dx”. I missed that part of the question. I thought it only meant diagnoses, rehab, DWI etc. The answer to that question is yes. When I submitted the form, I believed it was correct

I’ll be disclosing it on the next…
 
Rushie said:
Although the FAA may presume guilty.

Sounds to me like confusion over the definition of “abuse”. To use an extreme example, suppose you smoke a single marijuana “joint” only one time, as a teen, then never again. Maybe you didn’t like it, or maybe you got scared straight because you saw Reefer Madness. It was illegal, therefore any recreational use of it is by definition “abuse”. Is that the FAA’s official position and is that written down anywhere? And are applicants informed of that prior to filling out the MedExpress?

Out in the real world, reasonable people wouldn’t call that abuse, unless after smoking that joint you got in your car and caused a pileup by going 30 miles under the speed limit. But if there were no consequences and no impact on your life, I can see an applicant honestly answering “no” to that question.

But what happened here is presumably OP was honest with a doctor about whatever use history he did have, and who knows what criteria that doctor used to discern between “use” and “abuse”. But it is there now. I believe @midlifeflyer is correct, OP needs to make a correction to the application ASAP. (Through his AME? Not sure how the correction process works.)

Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe if you confess and correct proactively before the FAA discovers it on their own you are in much less trouble. It will likely result in more intense scrutiny and expense, because now you must prove you’re not an addict. But at least you still have a shot at getting certified as opposed to hard denial and possible felony charges.
Click to expand...

Abuse in my opinion is you’re out laying in the streets high and the ambulance comes to rescue you and puts you in a several month rehab program.
 
mandm said:
Abuse in my opinion is you’re out laying in the streets high and the ambulance comes to rescue you and puts you in a several month rehab program.
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And abuse in some people's opinion is when you pull a muscle and can barely move, and use one of the remaining painkillers you saved from an old prescription that you didn't need all of at the time. Or take TWO naproxen at the same time, even though the label says to take one. So, unfortunately, your opinion (or mine) won't help the OP much.
 
DaleB said:
And abuse in some people's opinion is when you pull a muscle and can barely move, and use one of the remaining painkillers you saved from an old prescription that you didn't need all of at the time. Or take TWO naproxen at the same time, even though the label says to take one. So, unfortunately, your opinion (or mine) won't help the OP much.
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This is what I’m trying to get at. The definition of “abuse” varies all over the map depending on who you ask.

Seems to me we should only go by the DSM-5 but there is a problem. It doesn’t even use the word “abuse”. It says “Substance Use Disorder” and here are all the codes:

https://optumsandiego.com/content/d.../Quick_Guide_--DSM5-ICD10_Diagnosis_Guide.pdf

So you’re filling out the form and you get to 18(n) which says:

Have you ever in your life or do you presently have:

n. Substance dependence or failed a drug test ever; or substance abuse or use of illegal substance in the last 2 years.

The applicant is left to his own devices to figure out what is meant by the word “abuse”. The DSM-5 diagnostic criteria for “Substance Use Disorder” is mild, moderate, or severe, based on the number of criteria symptoms met:
  1. Taking the substance in larger amounts or for longer than you're meant to.
  2. Wanting to cut down or stop using the substance but not managing to.
  3. Spending a lot of time getting, using, or recovering from use of the substance.
  4. Cravings and urges to use the substance.
  5. Not managing to do what you should at work, home, or school because of substance use.
  6. Continuing to use, even when it causes problems in relationships.
  7. Giving up important social, occupational, or recreational activities because of substance use.
  8. Using substances again and again, even when it puts you in danger.
  9. Continuing to use, even when you know you have a physical or psychological problem that could have been caused or made worse by the substance.
  10. Needing more of the substance to get the effect you want (tolerance).
  11. Development of withdrawal symptoms, which can be relieved by taking more of the substance.
The FAA talks about substance abuse and substance dependence as if they are two different things and I believe that is consistent with past versions of the DSM, but now it has been combined into one continuum. But the FAA has not updated itself.

Use of an illegal substance is clear, it must be reported regardless, if used in the past 2 years, but in your example, taking a painkiller previously prescribed to you is not illegal. No reason to report that unless you proceed to fall into two or more of the 11 things listed above.

What if the painkillers were prescribed to your spouse? You take a single one. Technically illegal, then you must report it.

That’s my interpretation anyway.
 
mcmanigle said:
to be fair, he didn’t say one way or the other whether it was intentional. Maybe he “realized” he perjured himself when he learned the definition of perjury.
Click to expand...
I guess my point was missed. There were two.
What he said so far did not indicate it was intentional.
And even if it was she should not say he perjured himself.
 
OP, tread lightly and don't proceed without the help of a HIMS AME. They'll let you know if you're in a situation that warrants an attorney. Omissions with regard to drugs/alcohol are a sensitive issue with the FAA due to the behavior patterns exhibited by substance abusers. It's definitely a good thing that you were never issued a certificate and exercised privileges.

Specific to MedExpress/the FAA the instructions are pretty clear:

" “Substance dependence” is defined by any of the following: increased tolerance; withdrawal symptoms; impaired control of use; or continued use despite damage to health or impairment of social, personal, or occupational functioning. “Substance abuse” includes the following: use of an illegal substance; use of a substance or substances in situations in which such use is physically hazardous; or misuse of a substance when such misuse has impaired health or social or occupational functioning. “Substances” include alcohol, PCP, marijuana, cocaine, amphetamines, barbiturates, opiates, and other psychoactive chemicals. "

This is basically a summary of the the FARs. 14 CFR 67.107/207/307. Claiming lack of knowledge about how the FAA defines abuse and dependence won't fly. It's right in the instructions for the form.

People might be giving broad definitions of substance abuse and dependence, but that doesn't mean the medical community doesn't have a diagnostic standard. Any medical professional should be using the clearly laid out criteria in the DSM-IV or DSM-V for mental health diagnoses. The main difference between DSM-IV and DSM-V was the move from separate "abuse" and "dependence" conditions to a single "substance use disorder" on a spectrum from mild-severe.

Regardless of the DSM, everyone familiar with substance issues in the practical sense agrees that there is a difference between substance abuse and dependence.

You can be dependent on a substance while not abusing. The cancer patient that is physically dependent on morphine for pain, but only takes the required therapeutic dose. If they stop administering morphine they will have physical withdrawal due to dependence created by long term non-abusive use of morphine.

You can abuse a substance while not being dependent. The investment banker that snorts some coke at parties every once and a while, but is not physically dependent.

You can abuse a substance and be dependent. The cliche of a functional alcoholic that drinks every day and will go into physical withdrawal if they don't.

This is really just a lot of hair splitting. If you meet DSM-IV or DSM-V criteria for these conditions, then you absolutely meet the bar set by the FARs and the MedExpress instructions for reporting abuse/dependence. This is especially true if your medical record has an ICD-10 or ICD-9 specifying abuse/dependence.
 
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The FAA has their own definition of "abuse." It's in the MedXpress Users Guide.

“Substance abuse” includes the following: use of an illegal substance; use of a substance or substances in situations in which such use is physically hazardous; or misuse of a substance when such misuse has impaired health or social or occupational functioning.​

https://medxpress.faa.gov/medxpress/Content/Docs/MedXPressUsersGuide.pdf
 
Certainly don't fly.

The way out of jeopardy, without an attorney, is to take your certificate and mail it in certified, with a letter, "I am returning my certificate for cancellation" and nothing more. Keep the certified return receipt

Then get with a HIMS AMS for a consult. The issue is that you apparently possess a certificate. This is the one situation in which the agency acts SWIFTLY, as in "emergency" revocation. If then you don't send in the certificate, you get the United States Marshall service. Don't go there.

B
 
bbchien said:
Certainly don't fly.

The way out of jeopardy, without an attorney, is to take your certificate and mail it in certified, with a letter, "I am returning my certificate for cancellation" and nothing more. Keep the certified return receipt

Then get with a HIMS AMS for a consult. The issue is that you apparently possess a certificate. This is the one situation in which the agency acts SWIFTLY, as in "emergency" revocation. If then you don't send in the certificate, you get the United States Marshall service. Don't go there.

B
Click to expand...
In post #1, he said he got deferred, so I'm not clear on whether he actually has a medical certificate.

"I never actually held a medical certificate under false pretenses (which I imagine helps my case), just answered the form and got deferred."​
 
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