Do I Log Scenic Tours as Dual Given?

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RocktheWings

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RocktheWings
I think I know the answer to this just wanted to get some other's thoughts. If I am at a school that offers scenic tours in addition to the normal discovery flights, do I log dual given on that? Or since it's purely a commercial operation being conducted under the LOA, etc would I leave that column blank.

Thanks
 
Definitely not. Instruction is given to a person who intends to learn to fly, or at least who wants to test the waters, and an instructional flight should be preceded by a discussion of what the flight will entail, even if it is simply "I am going to show you how the flight controls are used to change the airplane's attitude, and then I will observe while you experiment with the controls."

Padding your logbook with phony instructional hours will have no benefits as you pursue a career....an employer will look at hours, ratings, and how those hours were accumulated. Unless your scenic tours involve a landing at an airport more than 25 miles from the departure point, you can't even log them as cross-country.

Bob Gardner
 
Also, it could be a problem other than career worries. The FAA strung up a couple of flight instructors that were building PIC time by mutually giving each other instruction on ever flight they took. The FAA decided that they weren't really conducting instruction.
 
61.189 says you must sign the logbook of the person you gave instruction to. No logbook signature, no dual given.
 
bobmrg said:
... Unless your scenic tours involve a landing at an airport more than 25 miles from the departure point, you can't even log them as cross-country.

Bob Gardner
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Any flight where you land at a different airport than the one you took off from can be logged as crosscountry. Some crosscountry time may not be used for meeting experience requirements for some ratings depending on distance.
 
Thanks, this isn't really so much of an accumulation of time thing, since it's PIC regardless, just want to be sure I'm logging it right. A lot of our scenic tours/discovery flights kind of overlap: "While we're on this beach tour, why don't you take the controls" and then I'm giving them instruction on what to do. Then I've had people who signed up for a "discovery flight" but are deathly afraid of everything, "oh I could never fly this thing, you just keep flying I'll enjoy the view".
 
I thought there was paperwork necessary now before you could give instruction to a student pilot.
 
Salty said:
I thought there was paperwork necessary now before you could give instruction to a student pilot.
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You can give one intro flight, but after that, you have to fulfill the TSA requirements of verifying US Citizenship or been vetted.
 
Dave Theisen said:
You can give one intro flight, but after that, you have to fulfill the TSA requirements of verifying US Citizenship or been vetted.
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Sorry for the thread creep, but how do you get around not meeting the TSA citizenship requirement before the discovery flight?
 
Low Level Flyer said:
Sorry for the thread creep, but how do you get around not meeting the TSA citizenship requirement before the discovery flight?
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Maybe I’m wrong, because I don’t actively teach as much as used too, but I thought that was the rule that one discovery flight was allowed.
 
The TSA has stated that discovery flights fit into their definition ‘‘demonstration flights for marketing purpose" making those exempt from the alien flight student program.
 
flyingron said:
The TSA has stated that discovery flights fit into their definition ‘‘demonstration flights for marketing purpose" making those exempt from the alien flight student program.
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But then are you allowed to count is as dual instruction?
 
Salty said:
But then are you allowed to count is as dual instruction?
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There's not a definitive opinion on whether "demonstration, not flight instruction" for the purposes of TSA is not flight instruction for the purposes of FAA.

Either way, if you log it as instruction given, you have to sign the student's logbook.
 
Salty said:
But then are you allowed to count is as dual instruction?
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If it is instruction under the FAA's sense of the word.

The AFSP doesn't cover all instruction. It specifically exempts the above as well as ground and recurrent training (to include flight reviews, IPCs, and landing currency).
It also exempts high altitude training and upset recovery.

If you're an instructor you probably should spend some time reading through the TSA guidance: https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov/
 
flyingron said:
If it is instruction under the FAA's sense of the word.

The AFSP doesn't cover all instruction. It specifically exempts the above as well as ground and recurrent training (to include flight reviews, IPCs, and landing currency).
It also exempts high altitude training and upset recovery.

If you're an instructor you probably should spend some time reading through the TSA guidance: https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov/
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I am not yet.
 
So are you giving instruction or piloting for sightseeing 134 1/2?
 
RocktheWings said:
I think I know the answer to this just wanted to get some other's thoughts. If I am at a school that offers scenic tours in addition to the normal discovery flights, do I log dual given on that? Or since it's purely a commercial operation being conducted under the LOA, etc would I leave that column blank.

Thanks
Click to expand...

I had that exact scenario when I was a student pilot. I asked my instructor to take me up for a photo shoot. After the flight, when I asked if he was going to sign my logbook, he said no.
 
So the biggest question is as a low time greenhorn why didnt anyone talk to you about this stuff, to me thats a red flag on the operation.

Id be VERY careful at this place, stuff like overflying inspection, etc
 
Dave Theisen said:
61.189 says you must sign the logbook of the person you gave instruction to. No logbook signature, no dual given.
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I've heard that one but never seen anything, other than SGOTI opinions requiring, requiring endorsed dual instruction in order to log time while "serving as the authorized instructor in an operation."
 
RocktheWings said:
Thanks, this isn't really so much of an accumulation of time thing, since it's PIC regardless, just want to be sure I'm logging it right. A lot of our scenic tours/discovery flights kind of overlap: "While we're on this beach tour, why don't you take the controls" and then I'm giving them instruction on what to do. Then I've had people who signed up for a "discovery flight" but are deathly afraid of everything, "oh I could never fly this thing, you just keep flying I'll enjoy the view".
Click to expand...

I've never done any air tour work under a 119 exception. Does the LoA really allow you to let passengers take the flight controls??
 
The point of “the instruction must be logged in the students logbook for flight and ground instruction” is definitely fair. It’s funny, while I actually am one of the only ones at the school who meticulously logs the ground time, the discovery flight I’m usually just w/e as we get so many. I’d say about half purchase a logbook and I fill it out that day, but the others I give nothing. Would it be wise to go back and remove the “dual” from the ones who I never signed? What would be the explanation of what was going on during that flight with no dual given but a discovery flight in the records?
 
midlifeflyer said:
I've heard that one but never seen anything, other than SGOTI opinions requiring, requiring endorsed dual instruction in order to log time while "serving as the authorized instructor in an operation."
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True, am just SGOTI who probably heard it from SOGOTI. :)
 
RocktheWings said:
The point of “the instruction must be logged in the students logbook for flight and ground instruction” is definitely fair. It’s funny, while I actually am one of the only ones at the school who meticulously logs the ground time, the discovery flight I’m usually just w/e as we get so many. I’d say about half purchase a logbook and I fill it out that day, but the others I give nothing. Would it be wise to go back and remove the “dual” from the ones who I never signed? What would be the explanation of what was going on during that flight with no dual given but a discovery flight in the records?
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Personal choices. I have logged PIC on flights I haven't signed off on but I don't include them in "dual given".

For an example of where the FAA specifically allows a CFI to log PIC but not dual given, there is the "performing the duties" solo substitute.
 
For an example of where the FAA specifically allows a CFI to log PIC but not dual given, there is the "performing the duties" solo substitute.
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Explain to me how the cfi dummy in the commercial solo substitute gets to log PIC time in that case?

Not instruction.
Not sole manipulator or sole occupant
Not an operation requiring two crew by regs or TC.
Not an operation requiring an ATP.
 
the CFI is not providing dual instruction but they are acting as an authorized instructor, so they get to log PIC.
 

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flyingron said:
Explain to me how the cfi dummy in the commercial solo substitute gets to log PIC time in that case?

Not instruction.
Not sole manipulator or sole occupant
Not an operation requiring two crew by regs or TC.
Not an operation requiring an ATP.
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He is required crew member for the flight, holds a certificate, is current for flight and has a medical. Of course if manipulator of the controls has those then its another ball game.
 
tonycondon said:
the CFI is not providing dual instruction but they are acting as an authorized instructor, so they get to log PIC.
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Ah, you are right. They actually rewrote 61.51 to accommodate the CFI dummy, for both the student and instructor point of view. I missed that. It used to say giving instruction. Now it is as you say.
gacoon said:
He is required crew member for the flight, holds a certificate, is current for flight and has a medical.
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None of which entitles you to log PIC time. Further, he's not necessarily a required crew member provided the student is eligible to be PIC. The CFI dummy section was there because it was getting hard to find places that would rent aircraft (particularly twins) out for solo commercial student work.
 
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