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Calculatedpilot83

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Pilot83
I flying in coastal mountains on the west coast with 172. Where I fly there’s often no desirable location to land the aircraft and ditching will be the only option. I’m wondering when it’s acceptable to take the water ditch close to shore (no beaches, very steep cliffs and 40-100ft trees from 5000ft to the sea)

Basically I’m asking if you would rather fly 50kn into trees but not have to deal with water. Or take the water route. From what I’ve seen. Most water ditches seem to walk away without major injuries,

When water ditching is there any technique, like slipping so one wheel touches first and maybe twist the aircraft rather than both wheels at the same time and flip?

Thanks!
 
As with all things aviation, it depends.
 
A fixed gear Cessna will probably flip no matter which rear wheel touches first. It's the nose gear that flips it. Now on a tail dragger it is the mains.
 
If you roll it inverted before ditching, it will flip over right-side up when it touches the water. Just make sure when you stop the engine in flight that the prop blade is pointing up (down) so it catches the water when it touches first.
 
In a 172, I would kill the engine and roll it before ditching.
 
I would go for the trees. Your 172 lacks any chance of surviving a ditching and floating long enough to get out. Shoulder harness?
Any survival gear on board? Raft, Mae Wests? Any emergency flotation devices installed? Like a helicopter. Would you be wearing a "Poopy suit"? How cold are those lakes?
No good choices.
 
I’d be going for the water.
 
How cold is the water, vs how far and long can you swim in it??
 
Maxnr said:
I would go for the trees. Your 172 lacks any chance of surviving a ditching and floating long enough to get out. Shoulder harness?
Any survival gear on board? Raft, Mae Wests? Any emergency flotation devices installed? Like a helicopter. Would you be wearing a "Poopy suit"? How cold are those lakes?
No good choices.
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Not really. They will float for a while.
 
It depends; how well do you swim?

Of course, you'll probably die either way. Drowning would likely be less painful than bleeding to death with shattered bones while hanging in the trees. You might want to bring some cyanide, just in case.
 
Calculatedpilot83 said:
I flying in coastal mountains on the west coast with 172. Where I fly there’s often no desirable location to land the aircraft and ditching will be the only option. I’m wondering when it’s acceptable to take the water ditch close to shore (no beaches, very steep cliffs and 40-100ft trees from 5000ft to the sea)

Basically I’m asking if you would rather fly 50kn into trees but not have to deal with water. Or take the water route. From what I’ve seen. Most water ditches seem to walk away without major injuries,

When water ditching is there any technique, like slipping so one wheel touches first and maybe twist the aircraft rather than both wheels at the same time and flip?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
Curious where this area is? I am a newer pilot but I do keep aware of the terrain options on the ground while flying. I would first look for flat terrain, and also the sea, then if any boats (cruise ships, fisherman, etc) are present, any towns? I’d probably rather land by “assistance” vs a deserted beach. Also you can look on the sectional to see if there is any shelter too.
 
ateamer said:
Click to expand...

That's a very good article by Paul Bertorelli. It uses NTSB data to bust lots myths about ditching. It's good for a reader who actually wants to learn about ditching and safety.

This thread was started apparently as a troll, and so it generated some silly responses, many of which repeat the myths. I wonder, for the sake of public safety, if it wouldn't be better to just axe the whole thread.
 
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If this thread wasn't here, I wouldn't have read Paul's article which was illuminating. I'm willing to put up with some silliness to get some real value. YMMV...
 
Western Washington has plenty of trees and water, as does Nanaimo, on British Columbia's Vancouver Island. So this intrigued me more:

Water or Trees? - EQUIPPED TO SURVIVE (tm)

Water or Trees? - by Paul Bertorelli - Ditching is very survivable, turns out a forced landing in trees is as well.
www.equipped.org
 
Bertorelli is careful to say that When and Where you ditch are big factors in survival. The OP is asking about ditching in the Northwest, where the mountains plunge straight down into the north Pacific. There are both ocean and tidal currents along there, quite strong if he's asking about the BC or south Alaskan coast. That is cold water. It's not Californian. If one ditches there, the current can make swimming to shore difficult. The shore is sometimes nothing but rocky cliffs. The trees are tall and dense. Hypothermia, even in high summer at night, is a real threat. And the bears are numerous and hungry. Surviving the ditching is one thing; surviving until they find you is another. The ELT sank with the airplane.

I wouldn't fly a single up along that coast, and I'm a guy that has flown through the Rockies. There was a Cessna 170 that ran out of fuel a couple of years ago, between Vancouver Island and the Washington coast, and the airplane and pilot were never found. Strong currents there likely carried them out to sea.

Talking about an 83% or 92% survival rate sounds good, until you ask yourself if you would go on any flight where the chances of surviving that flight were only 83% or 92%.

Here. Have at it.

1692112069642.png
 
Mikey52 said:
A fixed gear Cessna will probably flip no matter which rear wheel touches first. It's the nose gear that flips it. Now on a tail dragger it is the mains.
Click to expand...
Maybe, maybe not. There are videos of fixed gear Cessnas that did not flip inverted.

I would always choose the water over hardwood trees. I lived in northern Minnesota, where the choices were rocks, trees or water. Water was my first choice.
 
Salty said:
Ok, ditching in that water would suck. But it would be a heap better than landing anywhere else in that picture.
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I would take the trees. I'm not a great swimmer, that water is cold and there are currents, and at least the trees give the ELT half a chance.
 
Dan Thomas said:
That is cold water. It's not Californian.
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Last time I checked, even off the California shoreline, water temps can be cold enough to seriously limit the time of useful consciousness. (I don't recall whether I checked Southern California waters, though.)
 
I get the impression that some of our members think that all newcomers are trolls. :rolleyes:
 
Ditch near the shore. In cold water and cold air, there's hypothermia concerns.

Seriousness - If you want to be prepared, rehearse the steps for exiting the cockpit by feel and without reference to direction. My right hand goes to my chest, I'm alive, follow the seatbelt toward my waist to the buckle. Release the buckle, clear the seat belt away from me. Left hand at my left calf, feel the seat and find the seat slide release. Pull the release and push my seat back. Left hand on my left knee, reach away from me to the door. Find the handle near my elbow, follow the door arm rest to the door latch. Release the latch. Push the door open. Back seat behind co pilot, grab the emergency kit, etc. When you are in an actual emergency, your brain will be overloaded and you will lose between 90 and 100% of your mental capacity (for some of us, that's a shorter trip than others). So, do this and make it second nature.

Obviously if you don't listen to reality and think the cessna will always flip inverted, then you should proactively roll it before ditching so it gets flipped back upright. But I do recommend watching some videos of actual 172 ditchings before take the obviously sarcastic advice.
 
Dan Thomas said:
I would take the trees. I'm not a great swimmer, that water is cold and there are currents, and at least the trees give the ELT half a chance.
Click to expand...
I’m not seeing anywhere you could hit trees and not hit rock also.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
...I would always choose the water over hardwood trees. I lived in northern Minnesota, where the choices were rocks, trees or water. Water was my first choice.
Click to expand...

Salty said:
Ok, ditching in that water would suck. But it would be a heap better than landing anywhere else in that picture.
Click to expand...
The trees in the photo are evergreens, likely Douglas Fir. The tops of most evergreens are soft and pliable. You would very likely survive plopping into them at stall speed. I bet the deceleration into the treetops would be less extreme than ditching into the water.

I've kayak fished Puget Sound (basically, a big lake) for many years. It's cold year-round, and I wear a drysuit. But there are boats, development, houses, beaches, and agriculture all over. In that environment, if I couldn't find a farm field, I'd probably ditch close to shore.
 
Domenick said:
The trees in the photo are evergreens, likely Douglas Fir. The tops of most evergreens are soft and pliable. You would very likely survive plopping into them at stall speed. I bet the deceleration into the treetops would be less extreme than ditching into the water.

I've kayak fished Puget Sound (basically, a big lake) for many years. It's cold year-round, and I wear a drysuit. But there are boats, development, houses, beaches, and agriculture all over. In that environment, if I couldn't find a farm field, I'd probably ditch close to shore.
Click to expand...
Salty said:
I’m not seeing anywhere you could hit trees and not hit rock also.
Click to expand...
 
Salty said:
I’m not seeing anywhere you could hit trees and not hit rock also.
Click to expand...
A lot of pilots have landed in those trees and survived. The airplane slows as it cuts into the tops and then it will plunge to the forest floor, slowed by the dense branches. There are risks from branches penetrating the windshield, or from broken structure releasing fuel, but much of the time it's perfectly survivable. If the ELT fails, though, finding an airplane essentially standing on its nose under a thick forest canopy is nearly impossible. The survivors need a fire to make smoke, so they'd better have the mandated survival equipment aboard (a requirement in Canada, for obvious reasons).
 
Dan Thomas said:
A lot of pilots have landed in those trees and survived. The airplane slows as it cuts into the tops and then it will plunge to the forest floor, slowed by the dense branches. There are risks from branches penetrating the windshield, or from broken structure releasing fuel, but much of the time it's perfectly survivable. If the ELT fails, though, finding an airplane essentially standing on its nose under a thick forest canopy is nearly impossible. The survivors need a fire to make smoke, so they'd better have the mandated survival equipment aboard (a requirement in Canada, for obvious reasons).
Click to expand...
While looking at that picture, I must disagree. I don't think the trees are going to stop you from hitting the rocks in that picture.

I've landed out and hit trees, so I have first hand experience about what you are saying, and I don't disagree with what you are saying at all. I just don't think what you are saying is the whole story.
 
EdFred said:
Not really. They will float for a while.
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Yeah. But. They usually float with the cabin roof at or below the water line. The couple of hundred lbs of iron on the firewall will see to that. Are you sure that you can escape (under water, and its dark and your ears still ringing from the impact)? My employer sent me through dunker training annually. Thankful that I never had to use it, but some of fellow airmen did. My room mate for example.
 
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IMG_1217.jpeg
Pipistrel
/carbon fiber
//open ocean
///near Ecuador
 
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