Discerning waypoint names when getting Clearances

FlyingMonkey

FlyingMonkey

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Aug 31, 2014
Messages
408
Display Name
Display name:
FlyingMonkey
I'm a new instrument rated pilot and have been filing all my flights IFR recently. Been doing a lot of cross country flying lately and going to unfamiliar airports. I do lots of homework before every flight, including reviewing all available approaches, low enroute IFR charts, VFR sectionals, and reading the AFD entry...typical "all available information" stuff.

However, I find it impossible to review all departure procedures out of an airport or memorize all nearby or possible enroute waypoints on charts...at some of these Class B and C airports there are dozens of DPs and I have also been given far different routing than what I file or what Foreflight suggests. When getting a clearance from clearance delivery there have been a few times where I just cannot understand the name of the waypoint I am being given and have asked them to spell it. It's usually just one waypoint out of the whole clearance and in the read back I have to say "I missed this waypoint."

Do you guys have any tips to avoid this situation? Is this common when at unfamiliar airports? Should I just be studying the charts a lot more before calling up clearance delivery?
 
FlyingMonkey said:
I'm a new instrument rated pilot and have been filing all my flights IFR recently. Been doing a lot of cross country flying lately and going to unfamiliar airports. I do lots of homework before every flight, including reviewing all available approaches, low enroute IFR charts, VFR sectionals, and reading the AFD entry...typical "all available information" stuff.

However, I find it impossible to review all departure procedures out of an airport or memorize all nearby or possible enroute waypoints on charts...at some of these Class B and C airports there are dozens of DPs and I have also been given far different routing than what I file or what Foreflight suggests. When getting a clearance from clearance delivery there have been a few times where I just cannot understand the name of the waypoint I am being given and have asked them to spell it. It's usually just one waypoint out of the whole clearance and in the read back I have to say "I missed this waypoint."

Do you guys have any tips to avoid this situation? Is this common when at unfamiliar airports? Should I just be studying the charts a lot more before calling up clearance delivery?
Click to expand...
Just ask them to clarify or spell it out before you start your readback, then you can read back the whole clearance correctly.
 
I don't hesitate to say something like "spell waypoint after [last thing I understood]."

I find that CD volunteers it rather frequently unless it's something both simple and standard.

Like "Cleared Napa County Airport NIMITZ THREE departure Scaggs Island VOR Sierra Golf Delta then direct climb and maintain 3000 expect 5000 after 5 minutes departure frequency 127.0 squawk 1234"
 
Yup, when in doubt just ask, in plane English,for them to spell it out.

Another tip is to pull your clearance from flightaware, it'll normally populate with more or less the entire route 10min of so before your flight.
 
Part of this also becomes the anticipation and preparation game which comes with experience. You are not expected to know all the waypoints and it is perfectly acceptable to ask for an identifier spelling...but if you know there is a DP at a field, or there are one or two likely approaches it is real easy to familiarize yourself with the waypoints on the plate ahead of time while briefing the charts so they are not totally new to you the first time you hear them.

I have had more than once ATC read off a waypoint...even though I did not know the spelling I knew enough to read back something was close and go look it up as I recall seeing it on the plate or on the chart from the briefing.
 
I have a blockage in my head that I think derives from me not being born a native English speaker, and that is when they spell a waypoint letter by letter to try to help me, my head jams up. I and E gets mixed up easily and many others too and I inevitably get it wrong somewhere. Best for me is when they just read the waypoints again slowly, or associate it to something.

I don't know how to ask for that, so I just ask again until I get it. :confused:
 
Although the intersections and fixes are suppose to be pronounceable, many are not, adding to the problem.
 
As long as you don't have the equipment transition...
 
Ask the controller to spell out the waypoints,also you can ask them to slow down.
 
stratobee said:
I have a blockage in my head that I think derives from me not being born a native English speaker, and that is when they spell a waypoint letter by letter to try to help me, my head jams up. I and E gets mixed up easily and many others too and I inevitably get it wrong somewhere. Best for me is when they just read the waypoints again slowly, or associate it to something.
Click to expand...
The problem with that is that many waypoints use nonstandard spellings or made-up words. Even native English speakers have problems.
 
Three waypoints at a time is about what a pilot or controller can handle.
 
Everskyward said:
The problem with that is that many waypoints use nonstandard spellings or made-up words. Even native English speakers have problems.
Click to expand...
Heh. First solo IFR flight after my checkride, my return clearance included CEDES. Now I know it's a well known intersection used by procedures for several nearby airports, including SFO. Then, I wrote down SEEDS, read it back correctly, and couldn't find the damn thing in the GPS database, at least not in California. I called back Ground, asked them to confirm, and they spelled it for me.
 
Just ask. If controllers think you're local sometimes they'll assume you know these points and just spit them out real quick so as not to annoy you with spelling everything out. If you're unfamiliar just say so and ask for clarification on ones not clear.

I usually try to review all the waypoints on airways on my route as often ATC will be nice and cut a corner off giving you direct to a waypoint on an airway from your route but not at a turning point (and hence likely not loaded into the GPS flight plan). ATC knows that so they usually preface any offer of a shortcut with "are you familiar with X intersection" and helps to be able to quickly say yes.
 
And then, of course, there are those times that your cleared route is way different from either your filed or your expected. Depending on where you fly, that may or may not happen often... but sooner or later, it will. Fortunately, as many have said, ATC is pretty much always willing to help out and spell it for you.
 
stratobee said:
I have a blockage in my head that I think derives from me not being born a native English speaker, and that is when they spell a waypoint letter by letter to try to help me, my head jams up. I and E gets mixed up easily and many others too and I inevitably get it wrong somewhere. Best for me is when they just read the waypoints again slowly, or associate it to something.

I don't know how to ask for that, so I just ask again until I get it. :confused:
Click to expand...

AIM 4-2-1(b): "...use whatever words are necessary to get your message across."

Bob Gardner
 
Shawn said:
Part of this also becomes the anticipation and preparation game which comes with experience. You are not expected to know all the waypoints and it is perfectly acceptable to ask for an identifier spelling...but if you know there is a DP at a field, or there are one or two likely approaches it is real easy to familiarize yourself with the waypoints on the plate ahead of time while briefing the charts so they are not totally new to you the first time you hear them.

I have had more than once ATC read off a waypoint...even though I did not know the spelling I knew enough to read back something was close and go look it up as I recall seeing it on the plate or on the chart from the briefing.
Click to expand...
[/QUOTE]

Shawn is dead on here. As you become more experienced, you will be able to slap down and repeat what you heard. Then when you plug it into your gps or foreflight or to find it on the map you will see it with the correct spelling. In the event that you still aren't sure, can call them up and clarify or ask for spelling. But typically looking at a map in the general direction you are going it will pop out.

A good way to practice the skill is to tune into a random clearance delivery frequency and try copying down the clearances despite not knowing any of the local waypoints. Then try to plot what you heard on skyvector. After a while you'll be able to fill out a routing by only knowing the departure and a bunch of wrongly spelled waypoints.
 
Thanks for the replies. I do study the charts and procedures quite a bit before and I file and get an expected clearance through Foreflight but a few times the actual clearance I'm given has been different than the expected. I'll keep asking them to spell it out!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top