Disastrous First (and Last) Annual - Advice Needed

obw said:
it looks like the plane really is in that bad a shape
Click to expand...
Out of curiosity, do either of the mechanics who looked at the aircraft provide heavy sheetmetal repair services on a regular basis? And in general, what else is the extent of the damage outside the pictures you posted earlier. If you don't want to answer that's fine too.
 
Bell206 said:
Out of curiosity, do either of the mechanics who looked at the aircraft provide heavy sheetmetal repair services on a regular basis?
Click to expand...

I didn't ask them and they didn't mention it, so I don't know.

Bell206 said:
And in general, what else is the extent of the damage outside the pictures you posted earlier. If you don't want to answer that's fine too.
Click to expand...

From what I recall, they said there is significant corrosion in the vertical stabilizer, rear fuselage/bulkhead, ribs and stringers near in the baggage area, and under the front seats (seat rails)
 
obw said:
I didn't ask them and they didn't mention it, so I don't know.
Click to expand...
Ask them and ask how they estimated the cost to repair. Sometimes mechanics without extensive sheetmetal experience can over estimate the costs.
obw said:
From what I recall, they said there is significant corrosion in the vertical stabilizer, rear fuselage/bulkhead, ribs and stringers near in the baggage area, and under the front seats (seat rails)
Click to expand...
FWIW: you might still want to contact a shop that handles heavy sheetmetal repair for some input. The pictures you did post did not reach the level to scrap your aircraft in my experience. For example, you can pick up a serviceable vertical fin for around $200-$300 vs repairing your original. The other pictures require more corrosion clean up to see what you have but even the exfoliated angles and channels shown are not a big ticket item to replace. The seat rails may start getting you into primary structure but its hard to make that call without pics. Regardless, if you're looking at a $20k+ loss by scrapping it, you may want to consider pursuing a repair bid to see where you stand money wise. If no primary structure is affected there is always a chance you might get out of this for a cost that is much lower than an outright scrap plus you keep your aircraft. Wish I could offer more.
 
  • Like
Reactions: YKA
Bell206 said:
Ask them and ask how they estimated the cost to repair. Sometimes mechanics without extensive sheetmetal experience can over estimate the costs.

FWIW: you might still want to contact a shop that handles heavy sheetmetal repair for some input. The pictures you did post did not reach the level to scrap your aircraft in my experience. For example, you can pick up a serviceable vertical fin for around $200-$300 vs repairing your original. The other pictures require more corrosion clean up to see what you have but even the exfoliated angles and channels shown are not a big ticket item to replace. The seat rails may start getting you into primary structure but its hard to make that call without pics. Regardless, if you're looking at a $20k+ loss by scrapping it, you may want to consider pursuing a repair bid to see where you stand money wise. If no primary structure is affected there is always a chance you might get out of this for a cost that is much lower than an outright scrap plus you keep your aircraft. Wish I could offer more.
Click to expand...

He's in Massachusetts, do you know anybody reasonably close he could call?
 
In many cases the repair will be completed by replacing the entire fuselage.
 
obw said:
Maybe at some point an emotional win will feel good, but at this point I'm much more interested in getting my money back!
Click to expand...
You will get your money back. The problem is, it will take 2-5 years and about $100k in legal fees before there is a settlement. You hope there is a settlement because trial costs are an additional cost.

With all due respect, there is an incredible amount of information online about older planes and inspections and missed inspections. From a business perspective, you will have to sue the whole chain of people involved. You will file interrogatories, take depositions... that is if the parties even reply. None of these perps are going to reply "gee, I knew it was bad, but I sold it to him anyway", or, "yeah, I skipped a bunch of steps I sure hope he doesn't take my house away"... Everyone will play dumb and sadly - lie - throughout the whole time. I feel badly for you it could happen to any of us. It happens to be your turn in the barrel. Cut your dollar and emotional losses as soon as you can. Don't pay the price twice.
 
PaulS said:
He's in Massachusetts, do you know anybody reasonably close he could call?
Click to expand...
No. I live along the GOM. But a good way to find a local option is post on the Piper type sites, hit the local FB pilot pages, etc. And being in MA he should post around the entire New England area. Another option is call the local FSDOs in the same area looking for S/M repair shops.

However, I recommend he should not post “I got screwed, my aircraft is possibly scrap, and I need someone to access the damage.” That will not help the cause. Instead a simple statement like “Looking for aircraft repair shop with heavy sheetmetal experience, preferably Piper, to access some damage for possible repair on a PA-28 located in MA.”

Regardless, at a minimum he should clean all the corroded areas to see what he actually has. We don't know. It’s fairly easy and inexpensive to rig up a portable media blaster/media reclaimer to clean the areas or at least clean manually. Not all corrosion requires part replacement. Some can be reworked, treated, and painted. Other areas can be cut out, a filler applied, then repaired with a standard SM repair. Etc. However, I think once he were to get an estimate for a repair, he will be in a better situation to either decide to repair it or give more him ammo to approach the previous owner and if needed the FAA if he so chooses.
 
Tom-D said:
In many cases the repair will be completed by replacing the entire fuselage.
Click to expand...
With monocoque airframes, that is not my experience at all, either with the day job refurbishing worn out/corroded turbine helicopters or with the side job on various small singles. However, on tube and fabric construction like Stearmans or Cubs, yes agree.
 
I second Bells advice on getting a solid sheet metal shop to evaluate. You will find A/Ps all have strengths and weaknesses. Few A/Ps I know are strong in structures unless they do/did that full time. An IA doesn't help there.
 
Bell206 said:
With monocoque airframes, that is not my experience at all, either with the day job refurbishing worn out/corroded turbine helicopters or with the side job on various small singles. However, on tube and fabric construction like Stearmans or Cubs, yes agree.
Click to expand...
We are not repairing helos, to repair a piper PA-28 you will be disassembling most of it, stripping the paint, removing the cables, wiring, repair the structure, and re-assembling.
That's a lot of work. When buying the fuselage from a salvage yard, it will come pretty much stripped. transferring the parts from one fuselage to the other is easy.
Remember replacement of parts is not a major repair. (the fuselage has a part number)
 
That white power could quite possibly be something else. Any log book entries from South America? It could be Colombian bam bam. In that case, you might be rich if you can find a buyer.
 
Tom-D said:
We are not repairing helos,
Click to expand...
So, pray tell, whats so different repairing a Bell 206 airframe and a Piper PA-28 airframe? However, if you reread my post I also qualified my comment with “with the side job on various small singles.”… i.e., airplanes.:rolleyes:

Tom-D said:
to repair a piper PA-28 you will be disassembling most of it, stripping the paint, removing the cables, wiring, repair the structure, and re-assembling. That's a lot of work. When buying the fuselage from a salvage yard, it will come pretty much stripped. transferring the parts from one fuselage to the other is easy.
Click to expand...
So which is it, a lot of work, or is it easy?

I’ll take door #1 Monty… it’s a lot of work that comes at a high price. Not to mention the additional cost of the replacement fuselage.

For comparison to the OPs aircraft, if we stick to what is mentioned: corrosion at the tail area, baggage compartment, and seat rails; we disassemble what's needed, complete the repair, reassemble, and touch up the paint. There is no requirement to disassemble everything "or most of it" like with a fuselage swap and remove the wings, landing gear, all instruments, wire harnesses, cables, engine, strip the paint, etc. Then have to reinstall everything all over. Nor will we have to refit cowling, doors, panels, etc to the replacement fuselage. Then paint the whole thing and so on. So I don't quite follow your logic here.

I’m sure I missing a few things above, but I’ve never found a monocoque fuselage swap (as required by a repair) to be economical or provide an acceptable ROI. But if money was no object or you got both aircraft for free then maybe it would work.

By the way, how many total fuselage swap repairs have you performed?
 
Bell206 said:
So which is it, a lot of work, or is it easy?

By the way, how many total fuselage swap repairs have you performed?
Click to expand...
About 7 total. Remember I've been doing this while now. :(
So, you'd find a fuselage figure to hold the aircraft while you basically cut it in half, and patch paint?

I prefer to strip and clean the entire fuselage.
If you are restoring the aircraft, do the whole job.
When I did 2623V I replaced 29 skins, overhauled the engine, replaced the avionics, wheels, interior, and the wing fabric.
So I do know what work it, but it is fun work, not heavy lifting.

and remember It is my opinion.
 
Another thought, where to get replacements, most of the PA- series parts with part numbers and require paper work, and do the 337 field approval process, and wait for the FAA.

Buying a salvaged fuselage, change the data plate? ( accordance with FAR 45) and no fuss with a 337.
 
Tom-D said:
The word is "fixture" have you even seen one?
Click to expand...
Tom-D said:
while you basically cut it in half, and patch paint?
Click to expand...
Oh I kind of figured out you meant "fixture" from your use of "figure." It was the "while you basically cut it in half, and patch paint" that I was confused on for the OPs aircraft. You generally cut aircraft in half to repair corrosion?

And since you replied....
Tom-D said:
About 7 total. Remember I've been doing this while now.
Click to expand...
Were these 7 repair jobs where you replaced the fuselage due to extensive unrepairable damage?
Tom-D said:
I prefer to strip and clean the entire fuselage. If you are restoring the aircraft, do the whole job.
Click to expand...
Do you normally perform a complete restoration when you repair a customers aircraft? How do you bid that out if it was only a repair?
Tom-D said:
When I did 2623V I replaced 29 skins, overhauled the engine, replaced the avionics, wheels, interior, and the wing fabric.
Click to expand...
So was 23V a corrosion repair job? Or was this a restoration project?
 
Bell206 said:
So was 23V a corrosion repair job? Or was this a restoration project?
Click to expand...
To do it correctly, the Aircraft we are talking about, there should be no different.
to do it any different is simply a patch job.
 
Bell206 said:
I don't know Pipers so couldn't tell you if is bad or not or something common.
Click to expand...

You've already said all anyone needs to say.
 
Last edited:
Tom-D said:
To do it correctly, the Aircraft we are talking about, there should be no different. to do it any different is simply a patch job.
Click to expand...
So how would you bid that to the OP in the case of his PA-28?

Curious. Is changing only a cylinder on an engine a patch job? Or do you also overhaul the engine to do it correctly?

Tom-D said:
Quote. ?
Click to expand...
Point?
 
Tom-D said:
I wouldn't It's junk.
Click to expand...
Ya think? Sounds like the OP’s PA-28 is in stellar condition when compared to your N2623V… even with the corrosion. Seems to me you need to re-calibrate your definition of “junk.”:rolleyes:
Tom-D said:
When I did 2623V I replaced 29 skins, overhauled the engine, replaced the avionics, wheels, interior, and the wing fabric.
Click to expand...
 
  • Like
Reactions: YKA
Bell206 said:
Ya think? Sounds like the OP’s PA-28 is in stellar condition when compared to your N2623V… even with the corrosion. Seems to me you need to re-calibrate your definition of “junk.”:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
170's are worth restoring, PA-28s not so much.
Why do you associate 23V with a PA-28?
Now I understand why you say you don't know anything about pipers?
 

Attachments

  • 2623V.jpeg
    2623V.jpeg
    91.3 KB · Views: 53
Last edited:
Tom-D said:
170's are worth restoring, PA-28s not so much.
Click to expand...
That’s only your opinion. However, the thread is about repairing a PA-28 not restoring one. May want to stay on point for this one.
Tom-D said:
Why do you associate 23V with a PA-28?
Click to expand...
That was my question. Still trying to figure out why you posted comments on restoring a 170 in a thread about repairing corrosion on a PA-28. I’m pretty sure that info didn’t help the OP situation.
But since you brought up the 170, can you point out the “29 skins” you replaced on 23V in your photo?

Tom-D said:
Now I understand why you say you don't know anything about pipers?
Click to expand...
Tom-D said:
You've already admitted you don't anything about them.
Click to expand...
And your point… again?
Tom-D said:
How would you know?
Click to expand...
I do know that the OP doesn’t need to restore his PA-28 to repair the corrosion which is your contention. What no one knows is the actual extent of damage as no corrosion has been cleaned yet. Don’t you think we should at least wait for that to happen first?

Then again, you can perform an annual in 20 minutes and can assess uncleaned corrosion on the fly. Is that why you state it should be restored vs repaired? Maybe one of your 20 minute IA compadres signed the OPs last annual but missed your memo on uncleaned corrosion? :rolleyes:
 
Bell206 said:
Then again, you can perform an annual in 20 minutes and can assess uncleaned corrosion on the fly. Is that why you state it should be restored vs repaired? Maybe one of your 20 minute IA compadres signed the OPs last annual but missed your memo on uncleaned corrosion? :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Twisted logic, you can't understand that there must be metal left before the aircraft can be cleaned?
 
Tom-D said:
Twisted logic,
Click to expand...
You got that right. And that’s the big difference between me and you. You spout opinion, pass it as gospel with zero reference, then walk away. Just like the reason for my first post on PoA. Your typical “I’m right, you’re wrong, screw the customer mentality.” At least you’re consistent.

Me, I prefer to help the OP if they ask.

For example, you looked at the OPs 4 pictures saw some corrosion and some missing metal, declared it junk and you were done. Then pivoting, you state the OPs PA-28 needs to be restored like your Cessna 170 where you replaced 29 skins…o_O which I’m still trying to figure out where those 29 skins are on a fabric 170. But I digress.

Whereas I looked at the same OPs 4 pictures you did and determined the vert fin could be replaced for $300, bulkhead at $400, the “missing” channels and angles could be bought for around $500, and in a worst case scenario the lower skins could be had for around $500. Same pictures, different results: $1700 parts vs junk yard. And for what its worth, this is the same method I use whether a Piper, Cessna, Bell, Stearman, whatever aircraft and has never failed me yet.

HOWEVER, only until the OP gets the aircraft properly evaluated and a repair estimate will we really know the extent of the damage. But then again you’ve made your mind up its junk and even if the OP does have it repaired and continues to fly you’ll step right up and state… “Yep, he did just like I told him to do…..”:rolleyes:
 
Bell206 said:
You got that right. And that’s the big difference between me and you. You spout opinion, pass it as gospel with zero reference, then walk away. Just like the reason for my first post on PoA. Your typical “I’m right, you’re wrong, screw the customer mentality.” At least you’re consistent.

Me, I prefer to help the OP if they ask.

For example, you looked at the OPs 4 pictures saw some corrosion and some missing metal, declared it junk and you were done. Then pivoting, you state the OPs PA-28 needs to be restored like your Cessna 170 where you replaced 29 skins…o_O which I’m still trying to figure out where those 29 skins are on a fabric 170. But I digress.

Whereas I looked at the same OPs 4 pictures you did and determined the vert fin could be replaced for $300, bulkhead at $400, the “missing” channels and angles could be bought for around $500, and in a worst case scenario the lower skins could be had for around $500. Same pictures, different results: $1700 parts vs junk yard. And for what its worth, this is the same method I use whether a Piper, Cessna, Bell, Stearman, whatever aircraft and has never failed me yet.

HOWEVER, only until the OP gets the aircraft properly evaluated and a repair estimate will we really know the extent of the damage. But then again you’ve made your mind up its junk and even if the OP does have it repaired and continues to fly you’ll step right up and state… “Yep, he did just like I told him to do…..”:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
JrP6WHs.jpg
 
AGLyme said:
You will get your money back. The problem is, it will take 2-5 years and about $100k in legal fees before there is a settlement. You hope there is a settlement because trial costs are an additional cost.
.
Click to expand...

Where do you get your figures from? I have litigated complex commercial cases that didn't cost near that amount of money. I mean not even close to that. Again it depends what obw paid for the plane to determine if the ROI is worth it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: YKA
George Mohr said:
Very late to this thread, and it seems to have degenerated anyway. But to @obw , just wanted to send you a digital hug. This is awful.
Click to expand...

I appreciate the sentiments and all the input I have been getting. Although there are many conflicting suggestions, I'm taking in all the advice offered and working on next steps. I'll head down to my mechanic's hangar tomorrow to take more photos and talk through some of the suggestions and comments that folks here have made. Thanks all.
 
AdamZ said:
Where do you get your figures from? I have litigated complex commercial cases that didn't cost near that amount of money. I mean not even close to that. Again it depends what obw paid for the plane to determine if the ROI is worth it.
Click to expand...
The real world brother. This case is about who is at fault involving multiple people, including the Buyer. Complex? PM me, I would like to discuss with you what complex commercial cases you have litigated in under $100k in legal fees...
According to the popular airplane sales sites, a PA 160 of that vintage is in the $40-60k range.
 
Bell206 said:
You got that right. And that’s the big difference between me and you.
Click to expand...
You've already admitted that you don't know PA28, yet you try to confuse the issue by injecting topics not important to the thread.
Typical, of your methods of change the topic, and blame Tom.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top