Disastrous First (and Last) Annual - Advice Needed

[mondtster]

Perhaps others can weigh in. I was actually trying to use the google machine the other day to verify this. But wasnt all the Comanche interior aluminum primed and Piper failed to do the same on the Cherokee and why the Cherokee has some corrosion issues?

To add to Kyle’s response, an undercoated airplane does not guarantee corrosion protection. The two airplanes I’ve performed the most corrosion repair on were both coated yet the material still corroded. It corroded from the inside out, which may have happened to the airplane in question as well.

Problems like that can be quite concerning because you may not see anything more than a slight bulge in the material for a while but the core is dust. Eventually it will pop through and make itself easily seen.

 

[Racerx]

To add to Kyle’s response, an undercoated airplane does not guarantee corrosion protection. The two airplanes I’ve performed the most corrosion repair on were both coated yet the material still corroded. It corroded from the inside out, which may have happened to the airplane in question as well.

Problems like that can be quite concerning because you may not see anything more than a slight bulge in the material for a while but the core is dust. Eventually it will pop through and make itself easily seen.

Welder by trade. Know all about aluminum corrosion. It's why you never use stainless hardware on aluminum. Galvanic corrosion. That's not what happened here though. If the inside is primed prior to assembly it should help. But it's obviously not a guarantee. Just thought I remember that the Comanche got primed better and didn't have as many corrosion issues.

 

[flyingron]

Plane is in Taunton

And you thought they smelled bad on the outside.

 

[LB 408A]

Looks like a gain to me rather than a loss. You have picked up a top of the line A&P and probably won't need to look for a better one and you can't buy better life insurance that good for the pidley amount that this annual is going to cost you.(and pay you off this quick after purchase for that matter)

 

[JOhnH]

Sue the F-- out of the guy that did the pre-buy.

He might need an expert witness. Any suggestions? Or offers?

 

[Lindberg]

Perhaps read the first the 1st six words of your original post. You have zero idea if salvage is even on the table let alone an option. If you want options take a big step back and start this process over with a 2nd opinion.

QFT.

I would also have a long discussion with the mechanic who did your pre-buy, including asking him to visit the plane where it is now, give his opinion on the issues, and why he did not call them out previously. You might or might not have recourse against the seller, but the guy you hired may not have done exactly what you paid him for....

I'm no A&P/IA, but if there's evidence the seller (or someone else) knew about the issues (whatever those are) and intentionally concealed them, then that may go beyond caveat emptor, and a discussion with an attorney might be in your best interest. Not because anyone is going to get rich suing on this deal, but maybe there's a chance of unwinding the transaction. If you could get the seller to take back his plane for the cost of a couple of letters, it might be well worth it.

 

[schmookeeg]

I think your right in saying you need another opinion if you can get one. Also, I would reach out to the A&P that did the pre-buy inspection and review with him and get from him why he missed it if it truly is as big a deal as the annual A&P is saying. Lawsuits rarely work in my opinion, but if you had any recourse, I would argue it's with the pre-buy inspection A&P and their incompetence leading you to buy a bad product. Sorry your going through this! Best of luck...

I would sue the idiot that did the prepurchase inspection, and while i am usually anti gubment, I would make them aware of this.

Sue the F-- out of the guy that did the pre-buy.

Exactly how invasive/detailed do you three believe most pre-purchase inspections are? And what is the legal liability that the prebuy A&P holds here? This is why there is common advice out there to perform an annual inspection in lieu of a prebuy.

When I do them, I do them as non-invasively as I can, so if I can't get a look at things with my borescope (and admittedly, I can get a look at a LOT of things with my borescope), it's not part of my prebuy without specific request or probable cause/doubt. Also I am running two different checklists (ABS + Beech), none of which have me pulling spar covers. That's in the Annual Inspection checklist, which is like 40-50 hours to run in full. Anyone signing up for a $3-4,000 prebuy?

Sellers are usually rather reluctant to have me rip their airplane apart on behalf of some rando.

 

[Racerx]

Did the first buyer have a separate A/P do the prebuy or did he have the A/P owner who did the paint and interior do it? If there even was one. Sounds like they might have realized the extent of the issue at first annual but his A/P signed off on it and your prebuy mechanic completely crapped the bed. The more I think about your situation the more upset I get.

 

[WDD]

Please post up what your second opinion says. It looks bad to me, and maybe it is what it is, but I and almost all of us here are experts. I would have a chat with the guy who did the pre buy, show him/her the pictures, and just pause, don't say anything, and wait until he/she starts talking.

Can't think of what else you could have done. But LB 408A has a great point. You'll probably come out with a loss of $20,000, but probably saved your life and/or anyone you cared about who was flying with you.

 

[Tom-D]

FAA would love to know about this, it did not get to this condition resently.
I would think this is what the FAA is for.

 

[WDD]

.....on behalf of some rando.

Not sure what that means, but I'm going to start using it - New word of the day. Is it similar to "Nimrod"? "Ramp Stalker"? "Tire kicker"?

 

[WDD]

FAA would love to know about this, it did not get to this condition resently.
I would think this is what the FAA is for.

You want to go after the last guy who signed off on the annual?????

 

[GRG55]

I'd be chatting with whomever did your pre-purchase inspection. This is the sort of stuff a good inspection is supposed to find.
Inspection ports open, mirrors, lights, inspection cameras, looking in the nooks and crannies.

 

[schmookeeg]

Not sure what that means, but I'm going to start using it - New word of the day. Is it similar to "Nimrod"? "Ramp Stalker"? "Tire kicker"?

Not mine, but it's somewhere on the spectrum between "stranger" and "creep" in reference to people. I find myself using it increasingly.

 

[ateamer]

Two questions:

Did you do an internet search and check the NTSB accident database for the aircraft to see if it had been in any accidents?

What was he scope of the pre-buy? Did you and the A&P have it spelled out what specific parts and items he was going to inspect?

 

[Silvaire]

"Pre-buy" inspection is a pretty gray area. You want an annual then there is a defined document whether that be Appendix D or the manufacturer's manual, there is a list of what specifically is to be done. With a PPI everybody's got their own idea and unless it's in a written contract your idea and the guy's idea who is doing the inspection might be completely different.

 

[jbarrass]

Wow, Couple thoughts from another SGOTI:

• From the pictures provided I'd say you should be happy it was found during an inspection. It looks pretty bad. It could be repairable if it is nowhere else but in the pictures, that's not really the usual case but it might be worth a look.
• Sounds like your current A&P is a keeper.
• I think I'd stay quite social distanced from the prior A&P(s)

Someday you're the windshield, some days your the bug.

Good luck

 

[mondtster]

Welder by trade. Know all about aluminum corrosion. It's why you never use stainless hardware on aluminum. Galvanic corrosion.

That is not what I am talking about nor the problem with with the two planes I was referring to.

 

[kyleb]

"Pre-buy" inspection is a pretty gray area. You want an annual then there is a defined document whether that be Appendix D or the manufacturer's manual, there is a list of what specifically is to be done. With a PPI everybody's got their own idea and unless it's in a written contract your idea and the guy's idea who is doing the inspection might be completely different.

"Pre-buy" is a catchall.

But, you can specify certain things: Firewall forward inspection including compression test, oil sample/test, timing, etc. On the airframe, you can specify "all inspection panels pulled, visual inspection of visible areas for corrosion or hidden damage". Point is, you can turn it into a firm scope and the IA/AP/Whoever then becomes responsible for inspecting and reporting on the items on the list.

 

[obw]

Did the first buyer have a separate A/P do the prebuy or did he have the A/P owner who did the paint and interior do it? If there even was one. Sounds like they might have realized the extent of the issue at first annual but his A/P signed off on it and your prebuy mechanic completely crapped the bed. The more I think about your situation the more upset I get.

A separate A&P did my pre-buy. He was never previously associated with the plane.

I think the A&P owner (guy who did the interior and paint) sold it to the guy I bought it from. That guy supposedly had done an extensive pre-buy before purchasing it. While he owned it, he had an annual done that was signed off in Dec 2019. My pre-buy was done in July and I bought it in August.

 

[obw]

Two questions:

Did you do an internet search and check the NTSB accident database for the aircraft to see if it had been in any accidents?

What was he scope of the pre-buy? Did you and the A&P have it spelled out what specific parts and items he was going to inspect?

I got an Aerospace report on the plane before buying it - accident reports, registration background, liens etc. Everything looked fine.

As for the pre-buy, I asked him to do a typical assessment but didn't spell out what to look for. I didn't feel I had the knowledge to spell out what needed to be done (and clearly still don't have it).

 

[Bell206]

what is the legal liability that the prebuy A&P holds here?

None. A pre-buy is not a required inspection so what standard would it be based on? But there's something more going on here. per the OP in Post 9 his current mechanic was "associated" with this aircraft prior to his purchase. How convenient he zeroed in on those areas on the 1st annual that 4 other IAs missed. And ripping the aircraft "to see" took away the OPs most important option... ferry it to get it reviewed/repaired by someone more experienced. How convenient again.

 

[obw]

None. A pre-buy is not a required inspection so what standard would it be based on? But there's something more going on here. per the OP in Post 9 his current mechanic was "associated" with this aircraft prior to his purchase. How convenient he zeroed in on those areas on the 1st annual that 4 other IAs missed. And ripping the aircraft "to see" took away the OPs most important option... ferry it to get it reviewed/repaired by someone more experienced. How convenient again.

Apologies, that was a typo. My mechanic was never associated with the plane. The plane came from Tennessee and my mechanic is based in Massachusetts. After he found the initial evidence of corrosion, he asked me if he could continue to pull panels/remove the vertical stabilizer to inspect further. I said yes.

 

[Tom-D]

You want to go after the last guy who signed off on the annual?????

Among others.

 

[Tom-D]

None. A pre-buy is not a required inspection so what standard would it be based on? But there's something more going on here. per the OP in Post 9 his current mechanic was "associated" with this aircraft prior to his purchase. How convenient he zeroed in on those areas on the 1st annual that 4 other IAs missed. And ripping the aircraft "to see" took away the OPs most important option... ferry it to get it reviewed/repaired by someone more experienced. How convenient again.

Thing is, the current A&P never signed the aircraft off, the last IA that did the annual should be in big trouble.

 

[DesertNomad]

I would definitely be in touch with the last IA to sign it off and probably the FSDO in his region. This looks like it has been at the bottom of the sea for a long time.

 

[Daleandee]

I'm no A&P/IA, but if there's evidence the seller (or someone else) knew about the issues (whatever those are) and intentionally concealed them, then that may go beyond caveat emptor, and a discussion with an attorney might be in your best interest. Not because anyone is going to get rich suing on this deal, but maybe there's a chance of unwinding the transaction. If you could get the seller to take back his plane for the cost of a couple of letters, it might be well worth it.

This ^^^^

I believe that I'd work on the transaction being undone if (and that's a key part) it can be proven that the seller was aware of these issues. The problem is that he will show that multiple people looked at the plane and gave their signature that all was well. But that may work against the seller when all of these people are called to task about why they signed off on a plane that is obviously very sick and has been that way for more than a few days. Perhaps the money to have an attorney at least send out a few query letters will get the ball rolling in you favor.

What happened is just wrong and any person with a reasonable mind will have to readily admit to that.

 

[Bell206]

I said yes.

And you learned an important lesson. As owner you are the straw boss not the mechanic. Next time get all the facts up front before you agree. But I also hold your mechanic at fault for putting you in this position as well being a new owner. Regardless, you are giving us only one side to a 5 sided story which still has a few unanswered questions.

 

[Grum.Man]

And you learned an important lesson. As owner you are the straw boss not the mechanic. Next time get all the facts up front before you agree. But I also hold your mechanic at fault for putting you in this position as well being a new owner. Regardless, you are giving us only one side to a 5 sided story which still has a few unanswered questions.

You blame the mechanic for finding years of severe corrosion??? Please explain your logic!

 

[Tommar98]

As an attorney I disagree with those that don’t say to get an attorney. There is a lot that I would need to know but I a Bill of Sale which says the plane was sold as airworthy would be significant. Even absent that language “fitness for a particular purpose” means the plane can fly. I’m assuming it wasn’t a salvage plane nor sold for parts. This isn’t a case of “oopsie” you have some bad cylinders or gear is in bad repair. Corrosion like this didn’t happen overnight and the IA who signed off the plane that it was airworthy is certainly someone to look at. Moreover the owner had to know what the status of this plane was (though that is harder to prove but not impossible once people have to start answering questions). Where I live the state has a consumer protection statute for unfair and deceptive acts that provides for triple damages and attorney fees. I’d be looking at getting an expert I/A to evaluate the plane. No way I’d walk away for a $40k purchase that someone clearly tried to screw me on.


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[Bell206]

Thing is, the current A&P never signed the aircraft off, .

True. But there's a lot missing to this story to include from the last annual sign off. As to going after past work on an aircraft this owner has owned/flown for 30 hours he can be drug in on the regulatory side.

Just to add to the go after the previous owner comments unless you want to spend more than the aircraft is worth fine have at it. But the last time I checked you're looking at a minimum of $50k to get an aviation attorney provided they would even take a case like this.

 

[obw]

A few months back there was a 61 Cherokee for sale in Michigan. Not sure if it was a 150 or 160. Engine had almost zero time. Owner had it overhauled...then the next year lost his medical. Plane sat in the barn ever since. The ask wasn't much. Put your engine, prop, radios, and interior in the other plane. In the end its probably all the same. I feel for you! Based on log entries, can you tell where this plane was based for its life?

Tennessee for about two years before I bought it, Florida before that (~2 years) and NY before that.

 

[GRG55]

He might need an expert witness. Any suggestions? Or offers?

As an attorney I disagree with those that don’t say to get an attorney. There is a lot that I would need to know but I a Bill of Sale which says the plane was sold as airworthy would be significant. Even absent that language “fitness for a particular purpose” means the plane can fly. I’m assuming it wasn’t a salvage plane nor sold for parts. This isn’t a case of “oopsie” you have some bad cylinders or gear is in bad repair. Corrosion like this didn’t happen overnight and the IA who signed off the plane that it was airworthy is certainly someone to look at. Moreover the owner had to know what the status of this plane was (though that is harder to prove but not impossible once people have to start answering questions). Where I live the state has a consumer protection statute for unfair and deceptive acts that provides for triple damages and attorney fees. I’d be looking at getting an expert I/A to evaluate the plane. No way I’d walk away for a $40k purchase that someone clearly tried to screw me on...

Could not disagree more, even if you are an attorney.

The current owner flew the airplane, so "fitness to fly" will be an interesting argument.

I am not disputing this is a terrible situation and one that an airplane purchaser, such as the OP, that has taken what should be the correct steps should never find themselves in.

But, you sue people/companies that have deep pockets. People that sue aircraft mechanics that work on little airplanes that are 50+ years old are wasting both their time and their money ("blood from a stone" and all that).

I keep joking with the mechanic that owns the shop that helps me keep my planes flying safely that the day I see him driving a new Jaguar I'll be moving my business as I know I am being overcharged. (this shop, previously run by his father, has worked with me to maintain all my airplanes since the first, a 1961 Cherokee 160).

The lesson here is to become an informed consumer.

 

[Tommar98]

Just to add to the go after the previous owner comments unless you want to spend more than the aircraft is worth fine have at it. But the last time I checked you're looking at a minimum of $50k to get an aviation attorney provided they would even take a case like this.

Not sure why an aviation attorney is needed? This is a contract case. You can hire an expert to provide an opinion about the corrosion and airworthiness. Obviously there are more facts to evaluate but this doesn’t require a specialist attorney. I will say that the prior owner probably isn’t someone who you can actually get $ from but I would guess the I/A has insurance. Again, so much is about the facts of the underlying transaction. The prebuy is mostly irrelevant - it’s not required and the purchase and sale agreement and Bill of sale are more important. I would agree that unwinding the transaction would be the best settlement.


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[Tommar98]

Could not disagree more, even if you are an attorney.

You sue people/companies that have deep pockets. People that sue aircraft mechanics that work on little airplanes that are 50+ years old are wasting both their time and their money ("blood from a stone" and all that).

I keep joking with the mechanic that owns the shop that helps me keep my planes flying safely that the day I see him driving a new Jaguar I'll be moving my business as I know I am being overcharged. (this shop, previously run by his father, have maintained all my airplanes since the first, a 1961 Cherokee 160).

The lesson here is to become an informed consumer.

Well it would depend on who worked on the aircraft and whether they have insurance. That would be part of the initial evaluation. I would certainly be looking at that before walking away from this. I agree being informed matters ...but when people make such a concerted effort to screw someone over..they shouldn’t get to just walk away with peoples money.


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[optionizerSS]

Different scenario again but boat buyers often get the vessel surveyed prior to purchase. We had ours done and this comes up on boating forums. From everything I have read there is no recourse on the surveyor because of the disclosures written into the contract. These things have happened in the boating world. Guys had a survey completed only to find out later that the wood core is rotted, stringers rotted, fiberglass delaminated, etc.

Good luck.

 

[schmookeeg]

Not sure why an aviation attorney is needed? This is a contract case. You can hire an expert to provide an opinion about the corrosion and airworthiness. Obviously there are more facts to evaluate but this doesn’t require a specialist attorney. I will say that the prior owner probably isn’t someone who you can actually get $ from but I would guess the I/A has insurance. Again, so much is about the facts of the underlying transaction. The prebuy is mostly irrelevant - it’s not required and the purchase and sale agreement and Bill of sale are more important. I would agree that unwinding the transaction would be the best settlement.


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The IA that annualed that plane in that condition likely carries no insurance.

 

[Dan Thomas]

This looks like it has been at the bottom of the sea for a long time.

The pictures gave me that impression as well. That's an awful lot of corrosion for a landplane, even a 60-year-old landplane. I've been inside of plenty of 60-year-old airplanes and never saw corrosion like that unless it had been on saltwater for a long time.

Maybe it was left parked for years on some airport right next to the ocean with prevailing onshore winds?

Look again at this pic from the OP:

See that angled line on the rotted channel? Center-right of the picture? Looks like a waterline to me.

 

[TrueCourse]

Perhaps S Florida after a hurricane?

 

[Tom-D]

True. But there's a lot missing to this story to include from the last annual sign off. As to going after past work on an aircraft this owner has owned/flown for 30 hours he can be drug in on the regulatory side.

Just to add to the go after the previous owner comments unless you want to spend more than the aircraft is worth fine have at it. But the last time I checked you're looking at a minimum of $50k to get an aviation attorney provided they would even take a case like this.

One question,, how much corrosion makes an aircraft un-airworthy.?
my point is not how much money is involved, but is the A&P-IA approving aircraft that are not safe to fly,, My Opinion the FSDO should investigate.

 

[TrueCourse]

I know there has been plenty of discussion, disagreements, and shared disgust on the topic of what an annual inspection consists of, but for a reasonable annual inspection, should this have been found well before this? If this latest A&P simply took a flashlight and aimed it down the fuselage and sees something that catches his attention, why didn’t the others?