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So long story short, I was diagnosed with ADD when i was 14, took meds until 16, then stopped. I graduated High School with 3.8 GPA, got a 4 year degree in hydrology, and earned SEL Commercial, MEL Commercial, and instrument rating all with out the help of meds. Never really occured to me but on the MedX form it asks if you have been diagnosed with a mental disorder. Well in my mind that was Schizophrenia or something to that nature. so i listed no. Save me the ethics, what can I do to correct this problem? Im 25 now, haven't been on Meds for 9 years.
 
The correct person to answer this question for you and provide the correct guidance is no longer participating on PoA.

You need to speak with Dr. Bruce Chien, based in Peoria, IL.
www.aeromedicaldoc.com
aeromedicaldoc(at)comcast.net

Best of luck to you!
 
I you are an AOPA member, you can post on their forums in their medical section. Dr Chien is the moderator there and can get to you on-line. But he'll probably then ask you to contact him off-line for something like this.
 
Doc will tell you to come clean at great expense. I'll tell you to keep your mouth shut and know that if you wreck an airplane then you are in certificate trouble.
 
I was thinking of going in and getting an evaluation, and bringing it to my next medical. That way i have the documentation in order. Perhaps if that's the case the AME can just issue?
 
Are you sure you were not "misdiagnosed" at age 14 and suffered as a victim of the system back then? It certainly sounds as though you have accomplished much to be proud of since then.
ADHD is known to be the most common misdiagnosed of childhood ailments. It is possible you never had it..........
 
I definatly believe I was misdiagnosed, I was 14, I coach hockey and I know how 14 yr olds act. THEY ARE 14. THEY ARE KIDS. Sorry im just really disappointed in this diagnosis, and I see it all the time with my hockey players, their parents are lazy and lack discipline, then blame their kids issues on ADD/ ADHD.

Does anyone know if the FAA classifies ADD/ADHD as the same?
 
Not a recommendation, but a statement:

Many minors are not fully aware of what treatments they receive, and what diagnoses are made by doctors. Unless you as now an adult are absolutely sure that you received such medication and a diagnosis, I wouldn't answer a question on the medical today based on a cloudy or misunderstood recollection of information conveyed to you as a child.

Now if you are 100% certain of the information you received, your best course of action is to seek the services of an AME like Chien who can assist you in disclosing previously undisclosed history and get the right tests in order now.
 
Shut up, keep flying, keep filling out the medx form the same and if it ever comes up - 'what drugs? Back when I was 14? Huh? I have no idea. Is that action by someone else and my parents xx years ago now germane to what we are discussing?'

YMMV, don't try this at home, may cause anal leakage.
 
thanks brad, yeah i didn't know, I have a document from my primary care physician, who has been my doctor since i was 16, that states "I have never diagnosed or treated this patient with ADHD." However, it says nothing about ADD.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Doc will tell you to come clean at great expense.
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I can confirm that, and will tell you the same.
I'll tell you to keep your mouth shut and know that if you wreck an airplane then you are in certificate trouble.
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You may also be in serious legal trouble, both in criminal court for lying to the FAA and in civil court for liability to anyone injured (physically or financially) as a result. And you won't be able to get Greg to help pay your way out of any of that legal trouble, so listen to his advice at your own serious legal and financial risk.
 
Part of the problem is the meds - depending on what they actually were. Some of those things are only prescribed for ADD/ADHD. So if you were prescribed, then you were diagnosed. And if you were diagnosed then FAA considers that a lifetime illness, something you don't outgrow. FAA will want proof you don't have it (which means you never DID have it), which normally involves a $2K+/- set of tests with a psychiatrist. Your doc seems willing to go on record saying HE never diagnosed you, but you are still stuck with the results from the previous doc that did. Doc Chien has been able to get people past this hurdle (I know from personal experience from working with him to help out a friend.) What I do NOT know is what affect any of this will have on your current and future medicals because it wasn't reported in the past.
 
maybe i should sue my parents for the bills since they were the ones who got me in this mess (cnn news story joke)
 
Jim Logajan said:
If you list the forgotten diagnosis and treatment on your next medical, I believe the burden is on the FAA to prove that previous failures to disclose were due to "willful intent" to misrepresent.
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The FAA does not normally take action over prior failure to disclose other than to pull your current medical, and possibly suspend your pilot certificate for a while if they feel you knew or had reason to know of the past condition.
Even in the best case, at a minimum they are likely to pull your medical and require you to undergo and "pass" neuropsychological evaluation:

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...ces/aam/ame/guide/dec_cons/disease_prot/adhd/
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That is correct if you can show you did not either know or have reason to know of the previously undisclosed condition. Otherwise, expect a pilot certificate action, too.

All things considered, I believe your best bet is to stop flying immediately (see 61.53(a), as you now know you have a disqualifying medical history), contact Bruce, and go from there.
 
Unregistered said:
I was thinking of going in and getting an evaluation, and bringing it to my next medical. That way i have the documentation in order. Perhaps if that's the case the AME can just issue?
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The AME cannot "just issue" in this situation. It requires as a minimum deferral to Aeromedical at FAA HQ. Further, since you now know you have a disqualifying condition, you must cease any flying requiring a medical certificate until the situation is resolved.
Sec. 61.53

Prohibition on operations during medical deficiency.
(a) Operations that require a medical certificate. Except as provided for in paragraph (b) of this section, no person who holds a medical certificate issued under part 67 of this chapter may act as pilot in command, or in any other capacity as a required pilot flight crewmember, while that person:
(1) Knows or has reason to know of any medical condition that would make the person unable to meet the requirements for the medical certificate necessary for the pilot operation; or...
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Brad Z said:
Many minors are not fully aware of what treatments they receive, and what diagnoses are made by doctors. Unless you as now an adult are absolutely sure that you received such medication and a diagnosis, I wouldn't answer a question on the medical today based on a cloudy or misunderstood recollection of information conveyed to you as a child.
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Legally, you are responsible to obtain that clarification before checking "yes" or "no" and signing your FAA medical application. Thinking you were misdiagnosed is not an excuse, and under the law, you do indeed "have reason to know" you do not meet the medical standards.
Now if you are 100% certain of the information you received, your best course of action is to seek the services of an AME like Chien who can assist you in disclosing previously undisclosed history and get the right tests in order now.
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...and don't fly again until you do, as it is clear you know about the diagnosis even if you disagree with it.
 
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Unregistered said:
thanks brad, yeah i didn't know, I have a document from my primary care physician, who has been my doctor since i was 16, that states "I have never diagnosed or treated this patient with ADHD." However, it says nothing about ADD.
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That's a very carefully worded statement which won't change your situation with the FAA. The fact that your current Primary Care Physician never diagnosed or treated you for ADD/ADHD (which the FAA views the same) does not help you if you know you were diagnosed by another physician two years before your current physician ever saw you. There is no law against concealing past diagnoses from your primary care physician, but there is definitely a law against concealing past diagnoses from the FAA.
 
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Do you have any knowledge that you were diagnosed with ADD/ADHD?

When I was in school, I was once prescribed Amitriptyline, an anti-depressant (and Major Depressive Disorder is the only FDA labeled use for the drug)...however it was not for depression, it was a migraine headache prophylaxis. I disclosed migraines to the FAA, not depression. Only took it for a few months when I was 17.
 
Unregistered said:
I do fly for a paycheck
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Just out of curiosity, what happens when this is the case?. You self ground, get the study, go to the AME, get deferred, all that stuff.
That can clearly last 6 months or more. How are you supposed to make a living during that time?. Would your company still pay as in some kind of "disability leave"?.
 
I make so little money as it is, i cannot afford to self ground and stop working. Some people have trouble understanding this...this is my lively hood. Im 25 and have a 2yr old and wife to support with my little over 12$/hr wage. How do you expect me to just self ground?
 
To the OP: I really, really hope this works out for you.

My advice, for what it's worth:

1) Contact Dr Chien on his personal e-mail or call his office, tell him the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

2) Since there have been, and are about to be more, suggestions you go ahead keep things the way they are you should probably stop posting on the off chance that someone, somehow finds out who you are.
 
Unregistered said:
I make so little money as it is, i cannot afford to self ground and stop working. Some people have trouble understanding this...this is my lively hood. Im 25 and have a 2yr old and wife to support with my little over 12$/hr wage. How do you expect me to just self ground?
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If you're going to share the airspace with me, I bloody well do expect you to fly by the rules, especially if you're being paid to do it. Just where would you draw the line regarding regulatory compliance? Would you fly a trip with insufficient crew rest just because you need the money? How about busting mins for the same reason? Carrying one more passenger "off the manifest" in order to make an extra buck (I know one former 135 pilot who burned one passenger horribly, and almost died himself doing that)? Maybe flying into known icing conditions hoping you won't ice up your non-FIKI airplane?

If you're going to fly for hire, there are a couple of words you should look up in the dictionary: "integrity" and "professionalism". Either you have them, or you don't, and if you don't, please stay on the ground so you don't kill someone.
 
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Unregistered said:
I make so little money as it is, i cannot afford to self ground and stop working. Some people have trouble understanding this...this is my lively hood. Im 25 and have a 2yr old and wife to support with my little over 12$/hr wage. How do you expect me to just self ground?
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There is always other non-flying work out there to provide that same level of wage. Even some that does not have a huge education or training prerequisite.

It takes less than 1/2-day to get in touch with Doctor Bruce Chien. You have been advised several times to do that.

DO IT!

Especially if you desire to salvage your flying career. Not doing it will create the risk of denial and when that occurs you're career is total toast.
 
Unregistered said:
To the OP, don't disclose, The FAA is terrible, chances are they will never find out, especially something that occured when you were under 18. Luckily not even the FAA can mess with underaged folks
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Can you 100% guarantee that and are willing to put up the money to assist the OP and others if you're wrong? No? and No? then that's very bad advise and shouldn't be offered.

With the way the connectedness of the medical databases are getting, it isn't difficult for the right folks at the FAA to dig into the right database searching for ADHD diagnoses, find the OP's record and then nail him to the wall for not complying with 61.53.

The proper way is to comply with the rules. Follow 61.53 and then seek out qualified help like Dr. Bruce Chien, and get it dealt with.

We have covered this many times on this forum, and to the best of my knowledge, that's always been the best instructions given by the good doctor.
 
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Well, that escalated quickly.

It may be better to go through the wringer now while making $12 an hour than risk it happening in 20 years time when you have kids in college, mortgage etc.

Ron, I understand that there really is criminal exposure here (18 USC s1001 being the same "lying to the Feds" statute that comes up in lots of contexts - tax etc), but the only case I know of where a criminal prosecution was pursued involved a COM pilot and where the concealed condition directly contributed to the incident that got him busted. Do you know of many others?

Not that this changes the OP's situation or the ethics / professionalism argument. And losing all your certificates is definitely possible, and probably career-ruining.
 
Two thoughts:

There seems to be a common suggestion that you contact Dr. Bruce. You might just want to contact Dr. Bruce.


Secondly, from what I have read of his advice, he does not appreciate a slow process of disclosing important information like you have in this thread. When you do contact him, you want to give him ALL the information that is relevant, according to him. Don't dribble out new information each time you contact him.
 
I ALREADY CONTACTED DR BRUCE, and what info are you talking about? that i fly for a living, i hold a first class medical as i already stated in the original post, usually that entails flying for a living under an ATP
 
Is there any merrot to what the other user was saying about the FAA aquiring documents from a minor? The post has since been removed
 
tiger said:
Ron, I understand that there really is criminal exposure here (18 USC s1001 being the same "lying to the Feds" statute that comes up in lots of contexts - tax etc), but the only case I know of where a criminal prosecution was pursued involved a COM pilot and where the concealed condition directly contributed to the incident that got him busted. Do you know of many others?
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The only others of which I am aware where there was criminal prosecution involved fraudulent Social Security disability payments. As I said, the FAA usually only takes certificate action, although in this case, where the pilot clearly knows but is concealing for commercial gain, the case law on point suggests an almost certain emergency revocation rather than just a suspension. Further, if it involves common carriage (even Part 135), I wouldn't rule out criminal prosecution, especially if someone gets hurt as in the case you cited (since the OP is flying for hire). And I have no doubt that if a pilot involved in an injury/fatal accident was found to have concealed a mental condition, the plaintiff's lawyers would have a field day before a civil jury, especially in a fly-for-hire situation.
 
Unregistered said:
I ALREADY CONTACTED DR BRUCE, and what info are you talking about? that i fly for a living, i hold a first class medical as i already stated in the original post, usually that entails flying for a living under an ATP
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Your first post doesn't say you hold a first class, just that you have COM MEL and COM SEL (and lots of non-pros hold them).

Ron, thanks. And I definitely agree with your points. Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting that the fact you might not be criminally prosecuted made continuing to conceal in any way a good idea.
 
Unregistered said:
Is there any merrot to what the other user was saying about the FAA aquiring documents from a minor? The post has since been removed
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You aren't a minor any more, and clearly, you know about the condition and its specifics, so you must know you're in violation right now. In any event, unless you've found a way to destroy the records in the hands of those other medical professionals, it's there and can be found if the FAA wants to look, which they have an absolute right to do under the law. The rest is just a matter of integrity and professionalism.
 
Unregistered said:
I do fly for a paycheck
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Unregistered said:
I ALREADY CONTACTED DR BRUCE, and what info are you talking about? that i fly for a living, i hold a first class medical as i already stated in the original post, usually that entails flying for a living under an ATP
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Odd, but it wasn't until Post #20 that you dribble out the information that you fly for a paycheck. And Post #32 that you already contacted Dr. Bruce.

Good luck.... :idea:
 
ClimbnSink said:
Doc will tell you to come clean at great expense. I'll tell you to keep your mouth shut and know that if you wreck an airplane then you are in certificate trouble.
Click to expand...

I would contact the good doctor and listen to professional advice, not people who don't have the expertise including myself. As stated earlier, contact Dr. Bruce Chien. If he tells you to come clean at great expense, there is a reason for it. And it's not for his health or ratings.
 
Ron Levy said:
I can confirm that, and will tell you the same.
You may also be in serious legal trouble, both in criminal court for lying to the FAA and in civil court for liability to anyone injured (physically or financially) as a result. And you won't be able to get Greg to help pay your way out of any of that legal trouble, so listen to his advice at your own serious legal and financial risk.
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Plus one.
 
asgcpa said:
I would contact the good doctor and listen to professional advice, not people who don't have the expertise including myself. As stated earlier, contact Dr. Bruce Chien. If he tells you to come clean at great expense, there is a reason for it. And it's not for his health or ratings.
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Agree, but he should probably also contact an aviation lawyer. I don't know who would be the Bruce of lawyers, but I'm sure there are some.
 
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