Did the Instrument rating ever used to expire?

[2nd505th]

Does anyone know if there ever a period in aviation history where your instrument rating could expire and would longer be seen in the the FAA airman database? I know there are some rules about private pilot licenses issued before 1945. But looking for something after that and if so when did the instrument stop expiring?

 

[Rgbeard]

My dad got his IR in the 80s and there was no expiration.

Others here can provide better information.

 

[Rgbeard]

Sounds like you’re hunting someone’s claims.

 

[aterpster]

No expiration in 1958.

 

[Plano Pilot]

Was it ever grandfathered? When I started flying corporate in 1984 there was a pilot coming up on the end of his career. Several other pilots said the old guy did not have an instrument rating but was grandfathered. I hug out with him a lot and really enjoyed hearing about the earlier days of corporate flying. I never asked him.

 

[Clip4]

I believe there was a regulation concerning the FAA not renewing instructors who did not have an instrument rating.

 

[frfly172]

If you didn’t stay current ,you would need to have an IPC .

 

[MauleSkinner]

Was it ever grandfathered? When I started flying corporate in 1984 there was a pilot coming up on the end of his career. Several other pilots said the old guy did not have an instrument rating but was grandfathered. I hug out with him a lot and really enjoyed hearing about the earlier days of corporate flying. I never asked him.

He may have gotten special dispensation from the company or insurance folks, but there was no “grandfathering” of an instrument rating.

 

[flyingron]

What changed was that prior to a few famous crashes (including the Buddy Holly/Big Bopper/Ricky Valens crash), there weren't any restrictions on commercial pilots who didn't have instrument ratings like there is today.

 

[5QK]

Does an IR expire now?

 

[WDD]

Expire? No.
Not be current if you don't do 6 approaches within past 6 months? Yes

 

[MauleSkinner]

Expire? No.
Not be current if you don't do 6 approaches within past 6 months? Yes

Back in the good ol’ days it was 6 hours and 6 approaches.

 

[WDD]

Back in the good ol’ days it was 6 hours and 6 approaches.

That actually makes sense

 

[Palmpilot]

Back in the good ol’ days it was 6 hours and 6 approaches.

I found those rules more effective for maintaining proficiency than the current rules.

 

[RIlls]

I got my instrument rating back in the 6 hours every 6 month era. Sounds like it would make one more proficient, but that is not how it played out for me. The 6 hours was a struggle since I lived in an area with good summer weather (only a 1000 foot marine layer in the AM so IMC was only a few minutes per flight). And then I was off to college for most of the year. For the first couple years I met the 6 hour requirement just droning along on some long cross countries under the hood- luckily I had another pilot to go with me as safety pilot. I am not sure how much much value that really gave me.

 

[MauleSkinner]

The 6 hours was a struggle…

I think it went away because it was a struggle for a lot of people.

I can remember trips where I “almost” got current every day…4-5 hours of IMC, and 4 or 5 approaches. In one year almost 25% of my flight time was IMC.

I doubt that I got the 6 hours in 6 months more than a couple of times after I started flying jets. 135 PICs take two checkrides a year, so that covers instrument proficiency. But I’ve known corporate guys who had to do regular IPCs.

 

[Palmpilot]

I got my instrument rating back in the 6 hours every 6 month era. Sounds like it would make one more proficient, but that is not how it played out for me. The 6 hours was a struggle since I lived in an area with good summer weather (only a 1000 foot marine layer in the AM so IMC was only a few minutes per flight). And then I was off to college for most of the year. For the first couple years I met the 6 hour requirement just droning along on some long cross countries under the hood- luckily I had another pilot to go with me as safety pilot. I am not sure how much much value that really gave me.

The way it worked for me is that I ended up flying more approaches than the minimum, in order to get the time up to six hours. Of course, a lot depended on the availability of IMC or safety pilots.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I think it went away because it was a struggle for a lot of people.

There was probably also a realization that extra hours above doing the high workload tasks did nothing but straight and level enroute doesn't do that much even for minimal proficiency.

 

[Palmpilot]

There was probably also a realization that extra hours above doing the high workload tasks did nothing but straight and level enroute doesn't do that much even for minimal proficiency.

The hours not spent flying approaches didn't have to be spent on straight-and-level enroute, but on whatever the pilot felt a need to practice, at least for those of us not flying for money. I liked the flexibility of that.

 

[aterpster]

There was probably also a realization that extra hours above doing the high workload tasks did nothing but straight and level enroute doesn't do that much even for minimal proficiency.

Well, I sort of disagree. Before I went with the airline I used to file IFR for every flight of more than 100 miles, simply to keep the airplane straight and level without an autopilot, stay on Victor airways, and communicate with ATC.

I also recommended this to my former instrument students who became rated. Enough of this removes communicating with ATC from the saturation list.

 

[Rgbeard]

I’m still curious what @2nd505th is hunting for. A local airport bullcrapper?

 

[midlifeflyer]

The hours not spent flying approaches didn't have to be spent on straight-and-level enroute, but on whatever the pilot felt a need to practice, at least for those of us not flying for money. I liked the flexibility of that.

Do you have any less flexibility now? There's no rule saying you can't do more than the bare minimum.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Well, I sort of disagree. Before I went with the airline I used to file IFR for every flight of more than 100 miles, simply to keep the airplane straight and level without an autopilot, stay on Victor airways, and communicate with ATC.

I also recommended this to my former instrument students who became rated. Enough of this removes communicating with ATC from the saturation list.

I absolutely agree about filing IFR to maintain proficiency within the system.

But would think that keeping the aircraft under control while performing approaches and holds would cover that the saturation issues.

 

[Palmpilot]

Do you have any less flexibility now? There's no rule saying you can't do more than the bare minimum.

I have this character flaw that causes me to be less likely to do something if I'm not required to do it. As a result, although I am legally current, I am reluctant to fly in IMC.

 

[WDD]

I have this character flaw that causes me to be less likely to do something if I'm not required to do it. As a result, although I am legally current, I am reluctant to fly in IMC.

I’ll cruise in IMC - for a while - but haven’t yet had the opportunity to intercept an approach in IMC and fly it down. I’m sure I can - I do it under the hood with safety Pilot / CFII twice monthly. But if weather is IMC for approach I don’t fly - yet. I’m IFR rated for 7 months now. Maybe later.

 

[aggie06]

I’m still curious what @2nd505th is hunting for. A local airport bullcrapper?

It’s probably the same guy who told me once that you didn’t need an instrument rating for “local IFR.” He had doubt that as long as you didn’t leave the “local area” no IR was needed. That was the reason he never got his - he only flew IFR locally.

 

[Chicago Bearhawk]

Expire? No.
Not be current if you don't do 6 approaches within past 6 months? Yes

So 6 approaches within past 6 months, but if that lapses, you still have 6 months to get current.
once that lapses (12 months so technically 13 months 6 months following out of currency) then you have to have a CFII or DPE sign you off.
And once that second 6 months lapses, there is no option except a CFII or DEP.

 

[Chicago Bearhawk]

I’ll cruise in IMC - for a while - but haven’t yet had the opportunity to intercept an approach in IMC and fly it down. I’m sure I can - I do it under the hood with safety Pilot / CFII twice monthly. But if weather is IMC for approach I don’t fly - yet. I’m IFR rated for 7 months now. Maybe later.

I am still not sure how comfortable I am flying it down. I have set my Personal IFR mins at MVFR. and to be honest, I have never had to reschedule a flight with those Personal mins.
you almost have to go looking for bad weather to fly an approach down to near DA or DH.

 

[Kritchlow]

I post this video every now & then. Many have seen it, but for the newer guys here…
NOTE- this is not me. It’s just SGOTI, although we are qualled for the same approach.

 

[Chicago Bearhawk]

I post this video every now & then. Many have seen it, but for the newer guys here…
NOTE- this is not me. It’s just SGOTI, although we are qualled for the same approach.

Thanks for that video...

I don't want to be a passenger or a pilot on that.
man things could go wrong in a hurry.
That was nerve-racking just watching!

 

[Rgbeard]

I love how @2nd505th hasn't visited this thread since he started it.

 

[Kritchlow]

Thanks for that video...

I don't want to be a passenger or a pilot on that.
man things could go wrong in a hurry.
That was nerve-racking just watching!

It’s always possible things can go wrong, but there is enough redundancy in the Airbus that the Autoland to Cat III is probably more safe than hand flown Cat I.

 

[Palmpilot]

I love how @2nd505th hasn't visited this thread since he started it.

Maybe his instrument rating expired.

 

[Pugs]

I am still not sure how comfortable I am flying it down. I have set my Personal IFR mins at MVFR. and to be honest, I have never had to reschedule a flight with those Personal mins. You almost have to go looking for bad weather to fly an approach down to near DA or DH.

Lots of space between MVFR and minimums at most places. I have no desire to put myself in spot to shoot an approach to mins, especially on a X/C that then likely screws up lots of plans (hotels, rental cars, events) if you have to go to an alternate but, like you, I train to it a couple times a month. Last month we arrived at our destination in Maine with VFR predicted to find not so much. Shot the approach and broke out 200' above mins and found the runway right where it was supposed to be.

After two years of mostly breaking out at pattern altitude on MVFR days, if you're like me you're going to find yourself facing unforcasted weather and if you're up to speed you'll find it all works. I'm now telling myself to go fly on those worse than MVFR days to remind myself. Also nice to not have to find a safety pilot!

 

[Shuckers86]

It’s always possible things can go wrong, but there is enough redundancy in the Airbus that the Autoland to Cat III is probably more safe than hand flown Cat I.

Thanks for that video...

I don't want to be a passenger or a pilot on that.
man things could go wrong in a hurry.
That was nerve-racking just watching!

It’s actually pretty cool to fly a real CAT3. You might see one center line light at touchdown. Before I retired my airline trained the crews to fly down to 300 RVR. Actually taxiing in from the runway was more challenging than flying the approach!

 

[flyingron]

It’s always possible things can go wrong, but there is enough redundancy in the Airbus that the Autoland to Cat III is probably more safe than hand flown Cat I.

Especially if you are are Wi Tu Lo or Sum Ting Wong.

 

[WDD]

It’s actually pretty cool to fly a real CAT3. You might see one center line light at touchdown. Before I retired my airline trained the crews to fly down to 300 RVR. Actually taxiing in from the runway was more challenging than flying the approach!

Yikes! Beyond impressive - at some point it will auto taxi.