Did Ohio outlaw victor airways?

EdFred

EdFred

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White Chocolate
Yes, I know states don't have that power, but...

Planning a flight to DC (HEF). Figure IFR probably easier (yes, I have my SFRA certificate) to just get in the system and be done with it. I know going to the east coast you WILL get airways, but I notice there's a huge area of OH with no victors at all. Same in western PA and NY and eastern KY. And no T route replacements. There's still some VORs spotted in the area, but wow, chart just looks weird without the heavy black lines. H-charts show J and Qs still all over that area.

Yeah, I haven't been looking at L-charts lately. Most of my IFR has been direct. Is there plans to get some routes in blue in that area, or is this just another reinforcement of F-you country?
 
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DC isn't Ohio though. :p
When I go to Philly area I always get Harrisburg V210 BUNTS

Figured I would get the same going into HEF. Some VOR (ESL??) V4 MANNE for the IAF into HEF

Even so, odd seeing blank areas on the L-charts.
 
Welcome to the MON. Not only are VORs and airways disappearing, some of the VORs defining still current airways are out of service (some permanently, like ULW), while others that are out of service are in no hurry to be repaired. The IFR system is essentially GPS-centric now. Unless I know actual preferred routes based on prior clearances, I usually file direct. The usual drill is a departure routing that keeps you out of the hair of the airliners, then often GPS direct to an arrival routing that keeps you out of the hair of the airliners.

My usual IFR departure sequence out of KVGC is direct SYR (which is nearly always way out of my way), then as soon as I make contact with Syracuse Approach, I get routed direct or nearly so in the direction of my flight. Approach is always good at apologizing for this and emphasizing they will get you on your way as soon as possible after contact. It used to be direct GGT (now decommissioned and renamed GTOWN), which was more convenient. Welcome to the MON.
 
EdFred said:
Yes, I know states don't have that power, but...

Planning a flight to DC (HEF). Figure IFR probably easier (yes, I have my SFRA certificate) to just get in the system and be done with it. I know going to the east coast you WILL get airways, but I notice there's a huge area of OH with no victors at all. Same in western PA and NY and eastern KY. And no T route replacements. There's still some VORs spotted in the area, but wow, chart just looks weird without the heavy black lines. H-charts show J and Qs still all over that area.

Yeah, I haven't been looking at L-charts lately. Most of my IFR has been direct. Is there plans to get some routes in blue in that area, or is this just another reinforcement of F-you country?
Click to expand...

I am not IR, but have completed the ground school.
Do you have an IFR GPS? If yes why not go direct?
 
Come to think of it, I’ve never not gone direct regardless of what I filed.
 
MountainDude said:
I am not IR, but have completed the ground school.
Do you have an IFR GPS? If yes why not go direct?
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It’s a question of what altitude to use.

The old Victor airways could tell you how low you could fly and not hit anything connected to the ground, be able to have radio contact, etc.

Going direct requires more study on how high you need to fly to avoid the ground.
 
I suspect it is a old Woody Hays conspiracy to **** off the pilots from Ichigan and it appears to be working.
 
WDD said:
It’s a question of what altitude to use.
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For planning direct routes, if there are no nearby published routes, I just look at the OROCAs or an EFB profile view (just like VFR and about the same amount of work). Then fly the altitudes I'm cleared to.
 
File direct Casanova (CSN) and you'll be fine. Potomac Tracon will vector you from there.
 
WDD said:
It’s a question of what altitude to use.

The old Victor airways could tell you how low you could fly and not hit anything connected to the ground, be able to have radio contact, etc.

Going direct requires more study on how high you need to fly to avoid the ground.
Click to expand...

The sectionals still give you that. It just is a much larger area than you are used to looking at. And considering how flat that area is, it makes little practical difference.

Tim
 
Yeah, should have included low IFR also.

Tim
 
Very different than West of the Rockies.

We have so much restricted airspace in AZ/CA/NV/NM that airways and intersections are your friends, regardless of how you choose to navigate them.

When I get on the east side of the line the behaviour all changes, and *BAM* it's direct-destination.

I can see an Eastern US pilot being puzzled when they come west.
 
Rgbeard said:
Very different than West of the Rockies.

We have so much restricted airspace in AZ/CA/NV/NM that airways and intersections are your friends, regardless of how you choose to navigate them.

When I get on the east side of the line the behaviour all changes, and *BAM* it's direct-destination.

I can see an Eastern US pilot being puzzled when they come west.
Click to expand...
You also have these little bumps called mountains and the airways generally pass over the lowest available terrain.

But really, while there is plenty about the mountain west that will mess up the flatlanders, the restricted areas aren't that big a deal and won't confuse eastern pilots all that much.

upload_2023-4-5_13-55-46.png
 
EdFred said:
DC isn't Ohio though. :p
When I go to Philly area I always get Harrisburg V210 BUNTS

Figured I would get the same going into HEF. Some VOR (ESL??) V4 MANNE for the IAF into HEF

Even so, odd seeing blank areas on the L-charts.
Click to expand...

I know what you mean. Almost all of my flying is between the Rockies and the Appalachians and aside from the KELSI fix around Chicago, I always file for and get direct.

If I were going into DC or anywhere on the east coast, I'd probably figure the likely route to that airport and file direct from my origin to the first fix on the arrival route.
 
midwestpa24 said:
I know what you mean. Almost all of my flying is between the Rockies and the Appalachians and aside from the KELSI fix around Chicago, I always file for and get direct.

If I were going into DC or anywhere on the east coast, I'd probably figure the likely route to that airport and file direct from my origin to the first fix on the arrival route.
Click to expand...

Yeah, Ive done direct a number of times and have gone through multiple sectors. I've never done the "file for a fix in every ARTCC area". Direct Florida from Michigan. Cleared as filed. But when I get close to smelling the east coast then I get the "we have a reroute, advise ready to copy"
 
EdFred said:
Yeah, Ive done direct a number of times and have gone through multiple sectors. I've never done the "file for a fix in every ARTCC area". Direct Florida from Michigan. Cleared as filed. But when I get close to smelling the east coast then I get the "we have a reroute, advise ready to copy"
Click to expand...

Yeah I've literally never filed the fix in each ARTCC area. Its almost always direct, or if I'm going east Direct KELSI->Direct. But I've heard the stories of those busy coasts and their need for routing.
 
EdFred said:
Yeah, Ive done direct a number of times and have gone through multiple sectors. I've never done the "file for a fix in every ARTCC area". Direct Florida from Michigan. Cleared as filed. But when I get close to smelling the east coast then I get the "we have a reroute, advise ready to copy"
Click to expand...

I always liked how the FAA advises (or did) you should do this. But then will never say what the areas ARTCC covers...

Tim
 
If I file a complicated route I get direct to destination before reaching cruise. If I file direct, I get a complicated route.... :D
 
midlifeflyer said:
For planning direct routes, if there are no nearby published routes, I just look at the OROCAs or an EFB profile view (just like VFR and about the same amount of work). Then fly the altitudes I'm cleared to.
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Wise words. I've never had a problem with that approach. Keep in mind the highest I fly over are Piedmonts and Smokies. If I was out west it might be different.

Kenny Phillips said:
Yep. File direct, take what you are given.
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Heck, most of the time when I leave Tower to TRACON I just get vectors until I get switched regardless of what was filed. Then the next controller gives me direct. Knowing how to use the GTN to change the flight plan on the fly is a key skill they should have on the Check Ride! :D
 
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midlifeflyer said:
among other places, the low IFR enroute shows them.

View attachment 116360
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Nope. That is actually a comm frequency which is monitored. It does not mean you are actually talking to that center. There have been a number of times as I change altitude, I change which center I am talking too. Even time of day can affect which center is responsible for which sectors. A decade ago, when I had the Aerostar I flew in the mid 20 flight levels, at 2am in eastern TN I was often talking to Cleavland. When I would descend, I would switch to Atlanta. While in the afternoon, I would be with Atlanta from takeoff until passed to Potomac...
Basically, the advice to have a way point in each ARTCC is very poor advice, since what ARTCC covers varies by time of day, altitude, and sector agreements.

Tim
 
EdFred said:
LOL. Here's your boundaries....a CSV file with lat/lon.
Click to expand...
Of course, you could just turn on the ARTCC boundaries in ForeFlight... :D
 
tspear said:
Nope. That is actually a comm frequency which is monitored. It does not mean you are actually talking to that center. There have been a number of times as I change altitude, I change which center I am talking too. Even time of day can affect which center is responsible for which sectors. A decade ago, when I had the Aerostar I flew in the mid 20 flight levels, at 2am in eastern TN I was often talking to Cleavland. When I would descend, I would switch to Atlanta. While in the afternoon, I would be with Atlanta from takeoff until passed to Potomac...
Basically, the advice to have a way point in each ARTCC is very poor advice, since what ARTCC covers varies by time of day, altitude, and sector agreements.

Tim
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It tells you which Center deals by default with that airspace, even if you disregard the sector frequency and independent of any LOAs between Centers. You can be pretty safe figuring that the airspace is not Seattle Center.

Whether the AIM guidance is necessary these days is a separate issue.
 
@midlifeflyer @luvflyin

The comm frequencies listed on charts does not provide for ARTCC boundaries. It provides an initial frequency to use to contact. It has nothing to do with ARTCC boundaries. In fact ARTCC boundaries are effectively dynamic, and you have no way to know what they are unless you ask. And they change by altitude, time of day, staffing, number of aircraft in the sectors... The FAA AIM guidance that you should (not sure this is current, but it does keep getting passed on) include at least one known intersection/VOR in each ARTCC area is not possible with the information provided by the FAA. You can guess, and that is the best you can do.

Tim
 
tspear said:
@midlifeflyer @luvflyin

The comm frequencies listed on charts does not provide for ARTCC boundaries. It provides an initial frequency to use to contact. It has nothing to do with ARTCC boundaries. In fact ARTCC boundaries are effectively dynamic, and you have no way to know what they are unless you ask. And they change by altitude, time of day, staffing, number of aircraft in the sectors... The FAA AIM guidance that you should (not sure this is current, but it does keep getting passed on) include at least one known intersection/VOR in each ARTCC area is not possible with the information provided by the FAA. You can guess, and that is the best you can do.

Tim
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You started this aspect of the discussion concerning the file one fix within each center thing. Yes, Centers sometimes delegate pieces of their sky to an adjacent Center. 24/7, or maybe during certain hours. But the boundaries of the Center are fixed. Delegation of pieces of it to adjacent Centers on a specified basis does not change that. The zippered line on the Chart shows what you need to know to meet the one fix per Center when filing requirement. The Comm Box is another thing. Just shows you a good guess to find someone to talk to nearby it.
 
tspear said:
@midlifeflyer @luvflyin

The comm frequencies listed on charts does not provide for ARTCC boundaries. It provides an initial frequency to use to contact. It has nothing to do with ARTCC boundaries. In fact ARTCC boundaries are effectively dynamic, and you have no way to know what they are unless you ask. And they change by altitude, time of day, staffing, number of aircraft in the sectors... The FAA AIM guidance that you should (not sure this is current, but it does keep getting passed on) include at least one known intersection/VOR in each ARTCC area is not possible with the information provided by the FAA. You can guess, and that is the best you can do.

Tim
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You'd better contact the FAA to let them know the information in the chart users guide and legend are wrong in describing airspace boundaries.
upload_2023-4-6_7-8-55.png

I think you are confusing communication and the allocation of control responsibilities with airspace depiction. Communication and day-to-day traffic control are subject to dynamic allocation of sectors and LOAs among Center, TRACON, and even tower facilities, but those don't affect the location of the airspace boundaries. The zipper lines describe regulatory Center boundaries. The boxes give default frequencies for the Center region you are in. The frequency is for initial blind contact. The name if the Center is the one you are in.
 
Could be. I decided to dig around, just because. :D
Here is the best ARTCC chart information I could find. Note: how it says it may not match low altitude enroute?
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/Aero_Data/Center_Surface_Boundaries/

I did find the guidance for the requirement to have a fix in each ARTCC.
While here is the AIM guidance from https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html/chap5_section_1.html
Part 5.1.6.d.2.f
File a minimum of one route description waypoint for each ARTCC through whose area the random route will be flown. These waypoints must be located within 200 NM of the preceding center's boundary.
Click to expand...

Not sure where I picked up the concept that the ARTCC boundaries depicted on the enroute chart are for communication, not aera of responsibility. Under the assumption that AOR is the point of the AIM guidance.

Tim
 
tspear said:
Could be. I decided to dig around, just because. :D
Here is the best ARTCC chart information I could find. Note: how it says it may not match low altitude enroute?
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/Aero_Data/Center_Surface_Boundaries/

I did find the guidance for the requirement to have a fix in each ARTCC.
While here is the AIM guidance from https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html/chap5_section_1.html
Part 5.1.6.d.2.f


Not sure where I picked up the concept that the ARTCC boundaries depicted on the enroute chart are for communication, not aera of responsibility. Under the assumption that AOR is the point of the AIM guidance.

Tim
Click to expand...

A non-regulatory requirement? Sounds more like it's a suggestion. ;)
 
tspear said:
Could be. I decided to dig around, just because. :D
Here is the best ARTCC chart information I could find. Note: how it says it may not match low altitude enroute?
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/Aero_Data/Center_Surface_Boundaries/

Tim
Click to expand...
From that page (with my emphasis):

Center Surface Boundaries​

The provided Air Traffic Control Center (ARTCC) ground level boundary data was created to support FAA's En Route Automation Modernization (ERAM) system. It is made available every 28 Days solely to aid non-FAA Flight Plan system developers and submitters to match the correct ARTCC with off airport points of departure/arrival such as during medivac flights or seaplane flights, when the point of departure/arrival is close to the defined low level ARTCC boundary published on FAA charts. Ground level controlling ARTCC boundaries may not match low level ARTCC boundaries published on FAA charts.​

This ground level ARTCC boundary data should not be used for any other purpose than the matching of off airport points of departure/arrival with the corresponding controlling ARTCC for that point on the ground. The corresponding controlling ARTCC for landing facilities (airports/heliports/etc.) can be found in the NASR 28 day subscriber file APT.txt file which can be found at 28-Day NASR Subscription.​

Offhand, it sounds like the Surface Boundaries are not the regulatory Center areas, but intended so that there is access to information on which of two adjoining facilities actually cover certain points on the ground which are not airports.
 
tspear said:
@midlifeflyer

Not following. What is your point?

Tim
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Information to allow a medivac departing from a hospital pad to know who the best contact for a clearance is not a good guide to where the regulatory boundaries between Centers lay. If you want to show me something that says, "the Center boundaries on the enroute chart are just stuff made up by some chart guy and are not the boundaries established by regulation," I'm all ears.
 
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