Diamond Aircraft going to embargoed Myanmar (a.k.a. Burma)

Groundpounder said:
At least when China spreads their seed in other nations they do it by building roads bridges and colleges, vs the US policy of bombing people into submission.
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"At least", huh? Missed the Marshall, plan, did you? And the rebuilding of Japan? How's our record on "bombing" peaceful countries into "submission?" lately? - like that bastion of human rights in Iraq? Maybe that harbor for nice folks in Afghanistan? Oh - oh! Those lovely ISIS fellows in Syria??? Got any friends in Tibet - not many true Tibetans left, though, are there? Might be hard to have a conversation with about a million Uygurs in Chinese concentration camps right now, too.
 
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Sundancer said:
"At least", huh? Missed the Marshall, plan, did you? And the rebuilding of Japan? How's our record on "bombing" peaceful countries into "submission?" lately? - like that bastion of human rights in Iraq? Maybe that harbor for nice folks in Afghanistan? Oh - oh! Those lovely ISIS fellows in Syria???
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Yes, look at Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria. All failures. Look at Nigeria. It has one of the fastest growing economies in the world, and what was once what could lovingly be referred to as a crap hole is being more and more civilized. Tons of Chinese money being poured in there. They want their gas and oil, and aren't trying to bomb them to take it. The carrot always works better than the stick.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
What I see is that the USA is heading in the same direction as the Chinese government, but using a different method to "keep their hands clean".

The US government buys location information:
https://www.vox.com/recode/22278402/x-mode-sdk-google-play-ban-location-data

Overly broad "keyword" warrants:
https://nypost.com/2021/10/06/us-government-ordering-search-engines-to-provide-search-data/

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/14/technology/personal-data-apple-google-facebook.html

Searches based "by the desires of those in power"
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/14/technology/personal-data-apple-google-facebook.html


Microsoft working with the NSA to allow encrypted user communications to be intercepted:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/11/microsoft-nsa-collaboration-user-data

This thread shows how much big tech follows you:
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/na-theyre-listening-and-i-dont-like-it.143459/
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You have to hide your corruption and/or abuses in the US - and if "outed" there are consequences, if not legally, then politically, or with cultural approbation.

The US has an genuinely independent judiciary, REAL separation of powers, a free press, and redress for ordinary people. Not perfect, and always evolving, and sure, with abuses. BUT BUT BUT - imagine a China where a sitting leader's son can be indicted and plead guilty to a couple felonies? Or a former leader is indicted for mishandling classified material? Where a high court can decide a President is not empowered to alter a law - a'la the student loan forgiveness effort by Biden? Yeah, FISA warrants were rubber stamped - it was a mess, and it got attention (and a DOJ lawyer convicted), and is a better process now.

We talk openly (like right here) about topics that would get you "disappeared" in China. We'll argue and struggle, OPENLY, about balancing privacy with law enforcement and security needs, like encryption - and if there is an abuse, someone will inevitably reveal it and the debate will begin. That's not gonna happen in China.

To draw a moral equivalent between the US and China is, at best naive.
 
Groundpounder said:
Yes, look at Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria. All failures. Look at Nigeria. It has one of the fastest growing economies in the world, and what was once what could lovingly be referred to as a crap hole is being more and more civilized. Tons of Chinese money being poured in there. They want their gas and oil, and aren't trying to bomb them to take it. The carrot always works better than the stick.
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Nonsense. The US hasn't "taken" a drop of oil from anywhere. It's paid for. You want perfection, look in a mirror. One thing you won't see is the 30K or so dead ISIS fighters torturing, raping, and murdering tens of thousands of civilians. Quite a few Taliban folks who won't hear you call out, either. You're drawing a political parallel between Nigeria and US interests in the middle east? You're comparing a fish to a bicycle.
 
Sundancer said:
You have to hide your corruption and/or abuses in the US - and if "outed" there are consequences, if not legally, then politically, or with cultural approbation.

The US currently has an genuinely independent judiciary, REAL separation of powers, a free press, and redress for ordinary people, and VIPs get off Scott-free. Not perfect, and always evolving, and sure, with abuses. BUT BUT BUT - imagine a China where a sitting leader's son can be indicted and plead guilty to a couple felonies? Or a former leader is indicted for mishandling classified material? Where a high court can decide a President is not empowered to alter a law - a'la the student loan forgiveness effort by Biden? Yeah, FISA warrants were rubber stamped - it was a mess, and it got attention (and a DOJ lawyer convicted), and is a better process now.

We talk openly (like right here) about topics that would get you "disappeared" in China. We'll argue and struggle, OPENLY, about balancing privacy with law enforcement and security needs, like encryption - and if there is an abuse, someone will inevitably reveal it and the debate will begin. That's not gonna happen in China.

To draw a moral equivalent between the US and China is, at best naive.
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You selectively read my post. The USA seems to be heading in the same direction as China, although we are not there yet- I hope we never get there. I posted references other than FISA. I'm not convinced it is a better process now.
Do we really have an independent judiciary? We might, but they haven't kept themselves as "clean" as they should have. They are all still judges, with no consequences.
Five Ethics Scandals Facing Supreme Court Justices and Their Spouses (newsweek.com)

Sitting leader's son- gun felony where any normal person would be thrown in jail? Former leader and classified material...he got more breaks than any normal person would:
Ex-FBI analyst sentenced to 46 months for retaining classified documents - UPI.com

"To draw a moral equivalent between the US and China is, at best naive." I reply that to not see the direction the USA is going is more naive. We are giving up the moral high ground.
 
Sundancer said:
Nonsense. The US hasn't "taken" a drop of oil from anywhere. It's paid for. You want perfection, look in a mirror. One thing you won't see is the 30K or so dead ISIS fighters torturing, raping, and murdering tens of thousands of civilians. Quite a few Taliban folks who won't hear you call out, either. You're drawing a political parallel between Nigeria and US interests in the middle east? You're comparing a fish to a bicycle.
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Ah, I see......
 
Cap'n Jack said:
You selectively read my post. The USA seems to be heading in the same direction as China, although we are not there yet- I hope we never get there. I posted references other than FISA. I'm not convinced it is a better process now.
Do we really have an independent judiciary? We might, but they haven't kept themselves as "clean" as they should have. They are all still judges, with no consequences.
Five Ethics Scandals Facing Supreme Court Justices and Their Spouses (newsweek.com)

Sitting leader's son- gun felony where any normal person would be thrown in jail? Former leader and classified material...he got more breaks than any normal person would:
Ex-FBI analyst sentenced to 46 months for retaining classified documents - UPI.com

"To draw a moral equivalent between the US and China is, at best naive." I reply that to not see the direction the USA is going is more naive. We are giving up the moral high ground.
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I think, here, political realities and free exchange can alter the direction - the cycle is: "Abuse happens. Outrage eventually ensues. The (imperfect) political pendulum swings. Things change." We've never been squeaky clean - or perfectly consistent. It's always messy, often unfair. I draw a distinction between a regime that is systemically, willingly, pervasively corrupt, and oppressive, against one that's kinda sloppy, but essentially wants to be fair. Gov't processes in the US are more transparent now, and becoming more so.

Just my opinion - I could be wrong. But we are a LONG way from China's horror story.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Which is another thing that'd be different in CCP land. The thread wouldn't be the thing getting locked up.....
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I wonder where you get your information from.

More likely, the thread would be deleted- that's a warning to shut up.
People persisting in posting things the government doesn't want posted get a temporary ban. This is bad because WeChat is also used as a payment vehicle on their phones. Further "bad" posts will get a longer ban, a permanent ban, or perhaps, yes, a visit from the police. Everyone uses wechat payment, but not all businesses take cash! So if you lose access to social media, you need to go to your bank to get cash that isn't accepted everywhere. My last visit to Suzhou, my friend had to convert some of my money to a wechat payment so we could get into one of the gardens. Supposedly, I'll be able to link a credit card to wechat for my next visit there.

People there do have "dog whistles", just like over here, that can be used only a short time since those codes are easily broken.

Things aren't as bad as you make it seem, but there is no free speech in China either.
 
Sundancer said:
I think, here, political realities and free exchange can alter the direction - the cycle is: "Abuse happens. Outrage eventually ensues. The (imperfect) political pendulum swings. Things change." We've never been squeaky clean - or perfectly consistent. It's always messy, often unfair. I draw a distinction between a regime that is systemically, willingly, pervasively corrupt, and oppressive, against one that's kinda sloppy, but essentially wants to be fair. Gov't processes in the US are more transparent now, and becoming more so.

Just my opinion - I could be wrong. But we are a LONG way from China's horror story.
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No, the USA hasn't been squeaky clean. But the power games have become closer to what happens in China.
Some examples are in this post:
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...goed-myanmar-a-k-a-burma.143329/#post-3414566

This is another case where I don't mind being proven wrong, and I hope the pendulum swings the other way as you said.
 
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