Departure Briefings

[Martin Pauly]

Do you brief possible emergencies before take-off, especially the engine out? I didn't use to - I wasn't taught to do it during my flight training decades ago but heard more and more people talk about it. And on the rare opportunity of a jump seat ride in an airliner (or in the many airline cockpit videos on YouTube), you can see the crew do a departure briefing on every take-off.

These days I do a short departure briefing before each flight, telling myself the response for potential emergencies - kind of like the old saying "expect the unexpected". By simply talking about it, we can make an appropriate response more likely should things go south.

- Martin

 

[GMascelli]

Martin,

Excellent topic. Having been through this exact scenario, engine failure on takeoff, I can say it happens fast, really fast. As PIC one has to make snap decisions and keep moving forward in order to survive.

I do not brief out loud if my bride is flying with me but the plan is one I review and am ready to react. In my case I had departed and at just shy of two hundred feet the first bang and vibration hit. I pitched for best climb and then the second heavy vibration hit, robing me of any power. I had made it to three hundred thirty feet and decided not to trade off altitude for my planned straight ahead go to spot, to get a visual. Instead I went with my plan B, left turn and land on the roadway. There was too much traffic to attempt the road so I rolled into my next go to, continuing the left turn to a golf course.

I would not have made it without a plan. There is no time to second guess. My total time from wheels up to emergency landing was 51 seconds.

 

[Geosync]

Yep. My instrument instructor did it every time we took off. Now as one who investigates incidents/accidents for insurance and have seen several engine outs at rotation end very badly, I do it every time I fly too.

 

[bobmrg]

"If you fail to plan, you plan to fail." Not original with me, but it is so true. Insofar as takeoff briefings are concerned, I make sure that the right-seater knows how to open the door "in case I am busy (or unconscious)."

Bob

 

[Martin Pauly]

Wow, Gary - I am glad you were able to make it to the golf course, avoiding worse.
Which brings up another good point: local knowledge of the area around the airport. Google Maps and Google Earth give us a lot of helpful information to help formulate a plan.

- Martin

 

[Clip4]

I turned off the video when he suggests a turn back to the airport with all those open fields off the departure end.

 

[Matthew]

I was generally hit or miss on this. But my glider CFI was a former airline captain. He always did it, each flight, even in a glider. It only takes a few seconds to verify you are on the correct rwy, make a note to yourself to abort takeoff if you aren't to flying speed by the xxx mark of the rwy, and what you will do in case of engine failure (or rope break) at certain altitudes. Because of him, I'm better at it, but I still find that I forget to do it way too many times. Complacency at my home airport is probably a big reason for that, I do tend to be more careful at unfamiliar airports.

 

[Salty]

I turned off the video when he suggests a turn back to the airport with all those open fields off the departure end.

You apparently weren't listening even up to that point. He specifically says "below 2000 feet land in fields ahead, above 2000, turn back to airport". But you got to post another grumpy, negative post, so congrats, you're still smarterest than all of us!

If you're suggesting that it's better to land in a field from 2000 feet when there is a runway right there, then, well, you're truly in a class by yourself.

 

[Matthew]

Departure briefings probably tend to be overlooked on the "go" portion of a touch and go.

 

[Craigd31]

Informative and admittedly controversial video from CPT Brian Schiff on mentor live regarding an engine failure after takeoff....

http://www.mentorlive.site/program/20.html

 

[Clip4]

You apparently weren't listening even up to that point. He specifically says "below 2000 feet land in fields ahead, above 2000, turn back to airport". But you got to post another grumpy, negative post, so congrats, you're still smarterest than all of us!

If you're suggesting that it's better to land in a field from 2000 feet when there is a runway right there, then, well, you're truly in a class by yourself.

Get a 172 POH out and tell me how you going to make this happen slick. By the book:

The distance for a 172 to climb from SL to 2000 ft takes 3 nm.
The straight and level power off glide distance from 2000 ft is 3 nm.
The turn back requires about 270 degrees to return to the runway for landing or about 1/2 NM additional distance in the turn + the decrease glide distance. You just impacted >1 NM short of the lift off point, assuming you did everything perfectly - which you are not going to.



Here is what happen to people trying to make it back to the airport.
http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/01/beech-b36tc-bonanza-fatal-accident.html

 

[Salty]

Get a 172 POH out and tell me how you going to make this happen slick. By the book:

The distance for a 172 to climb from SL to 2000 ft takes 3 nm.
The straight and level power off glide distance at from 2000 ft is 3 nm.
To turn back requires about 270 degrees to return to the runway for landing. This increases both the distance back to the airport and significantly reduces the glide distance.

Here is what happen to people trying to make it back to the airport.
http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/01/beech-b36tc-bonanza-fatal-accident.html

Ok, you keep going straight. With those fields near the runway and 2000 feet below me, I'll turn around and see if I can't make it back, if not, I have the same fields right there.

Bottom line, you dismissed him early for a stupid reason and now refuse to admit it and double down.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Ok, you keep going straight. With those fields near the runway and 2000 feet below me, I'll turn around and see if I can't make it back, if not, I have the same fields right there.

Bottom line, you dismissed him early for a stupid reason and now refuse to admit it and double down.

In all fairness and not to get into a plsslng contest, many fatalities happen from pilots trying to return to the airport and attempting to save the plane.

And this happens very quickly with little time to access the situation.

 

[Clip4]

Ok, you keep going straight. With those fields near the runway and 2000 feet below me, I'll turn around and see if I can't make it back, if not, I have the same fields right there.

Bottom line, you dismissed him early for a stupid reason and now refuse to admit it and double down.

Just so you know, that turn at 2000 ft to see if you can make the airport just cost you 500 ft and about 1/3 of gliding distance.

 

[Salty]

In all fairness and not to get into a plsslng contest, many fatalities happen from pilots trying to return to the airport and attempting to save the plane.

And this happens very quickly with little time to access the situation.

I disagree with his dismissing the entire video because of this. Instead of doing that he could have started a good discussion about decisions heights. Instead, he (to use your term) ****ed on the guys thread and added nothing to the conversation until after I called him out on it.

 

[Salty]

Just so you know, that turn at 2000 ft to see if you can make the airport just cost you 500 ft and about 1/3 of gliding distance.

And I have the same big fields I had before, and if lucky, a runway.

 

[bnt83]

Every time I fly I make a mental note of what I'm going to do on departure if things don't go well. This is one reason I don't like KLNK RWY 17 over the others, which are either insanely long or have row-crop fields on the ends, some have both like RWY 36.

Thankfully I've only come close to needing my plan in a C177B that just came out of MX. The maiden flight I held the brakes and power and counted to 5, the engine started to quit after rolling about 500 feet, an easy abort, happened at Y14 but there was a bean field on the end ahead of us.

 

[Clip4]

I disagree with his dismissing the entire video because of this. Instead of doing that he could have started a good discussion about decisions heights. Instead, he (to use your term) ****ed on the guys thread and added nothing to the conversation until after I called him out on it.

When a video promotes an unsafe practice, I turn it off. I have seen two fire ball accidents with the bodies burnt beyond human recognition from pilots trying to turn back to the airport.

 

[Martin Pauly]

The distance for a 172 to climb from SL to 2000 ft takes 3 nm.

With an almost 2-mile-long runway and assuming a little bit of headwind, that should still put us in a good position to return to the departure end of that same runway.

More importantly, though: The so-called impossible turn is called impossible for a reason, and in no way was I suggesting everyone should attempt it from 2,000 feet. That was my briefing for that day in my airplane at that airport with that weather. Your plan may be very different, for very good reasons. All I'm saying is tell yourself what your plan is before you take off, so that when the unthinkable happens you have a starting point for your response.

- Martin

 

[Salty]

When a video promotes an unsafe practice, I turn it off. I have seen two fire ball accidents with the bodies burnt beyond human recognition from pilots trying to turn back to the airport.

Too bad you can't add value, but only a snarky comments.

 

[Clip4]

Too bad you can't add value, but only a snarky comments.

Pilot : Hello Mr Insurance Company, this is your insured. I had an engine failure and had to land in a field and damaged the plane.

Insurance Company: Was anyone injured?

Pilot: No, but my airplane is really torn up.

Insurance Company: Super. We will send you a check.

 

[Salty]

Pilot : Hello Mr Insurance Company, this is your insured. I had an engine failure and had to land in a field and damaged the plane.

Insurance Company: Was anyone injured?

Pilot: No, but my airplane is really torn up.

Insurance Company: Super. We will send you a check.

I'd avoid my point if I were you also.

Pilot : Hello Mr Insurance Company, this is your insured. I had an engine failure and had to land in a field and damaged the plane.

Insurance Company: Was anyone injured?

Pilot: Yes, I hit a gopher hole with the front wheel, the gear collapsed and the wing hit a stump throwing fuel everywhere which caught fire and burned all the passengers alive before I could get them out.


Not sure what the point of that anecdote was, since, as I also did, anyone can write one to fit their agenda.

 

[Salty]

If you are at 2000 feet, are you still flying straight out from the runway? I'm generally not, even at a towered field I haven't climbed directly away from the runway the entire time.

 

[cgrab]

I have a departure brief card that includes direction of takeoff and action if engine quits-land straight if below 1000 ft, RTB if above 1000 ft.

 

[LB 408A]

mantra: straight ahead don't get slow-straight ahead don't get slow-straight ahead don't get slow-gee i hope i find a flat roof

 

[Clip4]

If you are at 2000 feet, are you still flying straight out from the runway? I'm generally not, even at a towered field I haven't climbed directly away from the runway the entire time.

I makes little difference. 90 degree turn out = 270 degree turn to land. 45 degree turn out is 225 degree turn to land.

 

[Salty]

I makes little difference. 90 degree turn out = 270 degree turn to land. 45 degree turn out is 225 degree turn to land.

You won’t be 3 miles from the runway.

 

[Salty]

This thread has inspired me to try it out. I’m going to do some simulated engine outs from 2000 feet with different departure legs. If I manage to not create a smoking hole in the ground (kidding) I’ll come away with a better understanding either way.

 

[Doc Holliday]

This thread has inspired me to try it out. I’m going to do some simulated engine outs from 2000 feet with different departure legs. If I manage to not create a smoking hole in the ground (kidding) I’ll come away with a better understanding either way.

Remember while practicing you know the failure is coming and have already mentally prepared for it, giving you a bit of an edge. In a real situation there is the hesitation of disbelief and a bit of confusion initially, and that few seconds can have a significant outcome of the event.

 

[Morgan3820]

I have also experience an engine failure right after takeoff, so I always brief the passengers. Even the regulars get the, "in the event of a forced landing you (the passenger) are responsible for getting the door open before landing as it may jam on impact. Exit the plane immediately do not wait for me". Speech

Flight Chops has a video about dealing with departure engine failures as part of a BFR. Very worthwhile.

 

[Clip4]

Remember while practicing you know the failure is coming and have already mentally prepared for it, giving you a bit of an edge. In a real situation there is the hesitation of disbelief and a bit of confusion initially, and that few seconds can have a significant outcome of the event.

Add the average private pilot maybe practices power off emergency procedures every two years at flight review and generally has to search their memory for the best glide speed and other emergency procedures for their aircraft. There are also private pilots who have never performed a power off 180 in their training.

 

[Morgan3820]

With an almost 2-mile-long runway and assuming a little bit of headwind, that should still put us in a good position to return to the departure end of that same runway.

More importantly, though: The so-called impossible turn is called impossible for a reason, and in no way was I suggesting everyone should attempt it from 2,000 feet. That was my briefing for that day in my airplane at that airport with that weather. Your plan may be very different, for very good reasons. All I'm saying is tell yourself what your plan is before you take off, so that when the unthinkable happens you have a starting point for your response.

- Martin

Martin, going back to one of your previous videos, 'Midway at Night in a Bonanza'. When I watched it, one of the things I was wondering was where to go with an engine failure on takeoff with all of the urban sprawl, especially at night. Thoughts?

 

[Jim K]

Good video Martin!

Martin, going back to one of your previous videos, 'Midway at Night in a Bonanza'. When I watched it, one of the things I was wondering was where to go with an engine failure on takeoff with all of the urban sprawl, especially at night. Thoughts?

I had this thought taking off from bowman in Louisville a couple weeks ago. I even remarked to my wife that we were going to have a bad day if the engine quit on departure. Nothing but houses for miles. Lots of guys successfully land on streets in urban areas, though. Nothing else for it.

Night over an urban area is probably better than rural.... you'll be able to see the ground instead of landing into a black hole. Flying on dark nights makes me nervous.

 

[Salty]

Remember while practicing you know the failure is coming and have already mentally prepared for it, giving you a bit of an edge. In a real situation there is the hesitation of disbelief and a bit of confusion initially, and that few seconds can have a significant outcome of the event.

Understand. And I'll bake that in to my practice. I've had a similar failure so I'm familiar with the phenomenon. I rented a 182 one time when my mooney had the mixture and prop in the wrong places. I was very familiar with that position and I inadvertently shut off the mixture at 1100 feet when I meant to turn the prop back. It took a disturbingly long time for me to accept that the engine wasn't running. I pitched to best glide and turned back toward the runway. I believe I would have made it back, I had turned crosswind at 500 feet so I wasn't far away at all. I immediately went to the "undo what you just did" checklist and immediately realized my mistake and fixed it, so I didn't have to find out if I'd make it or not, but, as I say, I got a good realistic example of how I'd react to an engine failure. Based on that, I firmly believe that from 2000 feet, I can make the runway with my normal climb out angle, but we shall see.

 

[farmrjohn]

A departure briefing is on my checklist for each flight. At my home field with the usual runway configuration there are different options depending on where an engine failure might occur, but I still state my contingency plan before take off even if solo.

BEFORE TAKEOFF

Trim Set
Flight Controls Check
Instruments Set
Radios Set
Departure Briefing Complete
—————————————————
Canopy As Req'd
Lights On
Mixture Full Rich or
As Req’d

(format didn't copy , and always check runway for traffic as SOP)

 

[aftCG]

View attachment 81526 Martin,

Excellent topic. Having been through this exact scenario, engine failure on takeoff, I can say it happens fast, really fast. As PIC one has to make snap decisions and keep moving forward in order to survive.

I do not brief out loud if my bride is flying with me but the plan is one I review and am ready to react. In my case I had departed and at just shy of two hundred feet the first bang and vibration hit. I pitched for best climb and then the second heavy vibration hit, robing me of any power. I had made it to three hundred thirty feet and decided not to trade off altitude for my planned straight ahead go to spot, to get a visual. Instead I went with my plan B, left turn and land on the roadway. There was too much traffic to attempt the road so I rolled into my next go to, continuing the left turn to a golf course.

I would not have made it without a plan. There is no time to second guess. My total time from wheels up to emergency landing was 51 seconds.

View attachment 81525

View attachment 81526

Clearly, you failed to perform an adequate preflight or you would have noticed that the engine was falling off and the landing gear was missing.



(Nicely done, btw)

 

[GMascelli]

Clearly, you failed to perform an adequate preflight or you would have noticed that the engine was falling off and the landing gear was missing.

(Nicely done, btw)

Hate when that happens....

 

[Martin Pauly]

Martin, going back to one of your previous videos, 'Midway at Night in a Bonanza'. When I watched it, one of the things I was wondering was where to go with an engine failure on takeoff with all of the urban sprawl, especially at night. Thoughts?

Midway is tough, even with daylight. There just isn't much free space around it, and the airport isn't very large. Another example is Kansas City Downtown (KMC) - the river has nasty currents which have killed people, but there's no other place to set a plane down nearby. I wish I had a better answer, but in places like that, an engine failure at the wrong time does not have a likely possibility of a good outcome - in which case it's a question of where do I go so I don't hurt anyone on the ground. Fortunately, only a small percentage of landings/take-offs I make are to places like that. Given that my home base is surrounded by fields in every direction, statistically speaking at least half my landings and take-offs are at places which have good options. But sometimes there aren't any... It's a risk I understand and accept. I try to manage it as best I can, but it's not zero.

- Martin

 

[N1120A]

My home airport is pretty bad, from a GA perspective, for finding a landing spot - it is why a fair number of pilot Vx till at least 500 AGL and Vy to 1000 AGL very consistently. From the prevailing runways, the 30 degree window can put you on a baseball field. There is a large freeway just off the end, so you can potentially make that, though it gets a lot of traffic at times. If you have a little more altitude, there is a crosswind runway. Still, lots of pucker and a few planes have ended up in houses or businesses. A solid briefing, even if mental, is definitely something that should be done every time.

The thing to remember is that, in a piston, you have time to think about all this. You do a run up. If towered, you await IFR release, or sequence with the pattern. If untowered, there's a good chance no one is around anyway. There's no reason to not run the scenarios in your head each time, let alone sound them out - if that is how your brain works.

Oh, and the same goes for unfamiliar airports. You flew in, right? Take a mental picture of your surroundings and study the local VFR chart as well as the various airport charts - get that situational awareness.

Martin, going back to one of your previous videos, 'Midway at Night in a Bonanza'. When I watched it, one of the things I was wondering was where to go with an engine failure on takeoff with all of the urban sprawl, especially at night. Thoughts?

The one thing about Midway is that it would be one of the easier places to make an Impossible Turn, because you have all those crosswind runways. There are also lots of roads around there.

 

[denverpilot]

I was bad about departure briefings many years ago until I ran into an instructor who said “I’ll wait” until I did it every... single... time.

Fly professionally or not, he said...

Becomes even more important in a multi at this altitude.