Debonair down at TEX

Fearless Tower

Fearless Tower

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http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/colo-officials-private-plane-crashes-killing-22543871

Article says Bo, but apparently it was this one: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N400DJ

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Happened yesterday. 3 killed, RIP.

I can think of better things to do with my life than attempt a departure from TEX in a non-deice single in snow and 1 mile vis.
 
I don't know what the weather was like, but snow does not necessarily mean ice was a factor.

Never been to TEX but I just looked at the approach plates and it seems he departed with the weather below minimums which is not smart - especially considering the terrain.
 
Take off below minimums is usually not a good idea in the mountains. May they rest in peace.
 
dell30rb said:
I don't know what the weather was like, but snow does not necessarily mean ice was a factor.

Never been to TEX but I just looked at the approach plates and it seems he departed with the weather below minimums which is not smart - especially considering the terrain.
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that's very unfortunate. You hate to hear about fatalities, especially in something that may have been avoidable.
 
So I just looked up a youtube video of take off from Runway 27. If they crashed 1 mile out, then it might be in the valley.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6wVO16L0s0

Not good conditions, I understand, and not a choice I would have made but I am not sure if it was poor ADM skills.

Plane didn't look to beat up from impact and one of the articles read as if they were at the base of a ridge. Maybe engine problems?

Guess we will have to wait for the official FAA report to know for sure.
 
Based on the wreckage, it does not appear to be CFIT.
 
I am curious why you guys are saying departed below minimums, refresh me on part 91 single engine departure mins again?

Been in and out of TEX a few times in the Lear, there is plenty of valley right off of TEX when departing. MTJ is right around the corner, what a shame.
 
Inverted said:
I am curious why you guys are saying departed below minimums, refresh me on part 91 single engine departure mins again?
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A lot of folks (myself included) make it a general rule not to depart if the weather is below the approach minimums for the particular airport. You know "personal minimums" and all that.

Local exceptions may apply.

No one said it wasn't legal. (I get your point, it was legal)
 
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dell30rb said:
I don't know what the weather was like, but snow does not necessarily mean ice was a factor.
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True. No idea how bad the temps were yesterday, although apparently also in CO yesterday there was a report of a Cirrus popping the chute due to ice.
 
Inverted said:
Been in and out of TEX a few times in the Lear, there is plenty of valley right off of TEX when departing. MTJ is right around the corner, what a shame.
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From the photos on the club website, this was a pretty well equipped airplane...I doubt it was a lack of terrain awareness even with snow and low vis.
 
MSPAviator said:
I don't think I would fly IFR in the mountains in a non-turbo aircraft.
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I pulled up the low IFR chart for the area, MEA's are 15,000 ish

That might be fine in a debonair with 3 people on a cold day and a lighter load of fuel for a shorter trip. It sounds marginal though.

Factor in the poor weather and you have an accident chain.
 
Ouch, the pictures look like it burned pretty good. Definitely feel bad to all involved, what a way to go.

According to the nydailynews.com article there were two commercial pilots and a experienced military pilot on board. With all that qualification I feel like someone would have caught any obvious mistakes. At that altitude even an engine losing a small amount of power could be fatal.
 
TEX to CEZ only requires an MEA of 12000
 
tehmightypirate said:
According to the nydailynews.com article there were two commercial pilots and a experienced military pilot on board. With all that qualification I feel like someone would have caught any obvious mistakes. At that altitude even an engine losing a small amount of power could be fatal.
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From another board, the husband and wife were both airline pilots (one US Airways and the other UAL). Third was former military.
 
Inverted said:
I am curious why you guys are saying departed below minimums, refresh me on part 91 single engine departure mins again?

Been in and out of TEX a few times in the Lear, there is plenty of valley right off of TEX when departing. MTJ is right around the corner, what a shame.
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Since it wasn't 5400-3 do you think a Bonanza could meet the climb gradient of 463' per NM to 10500? I have no idea. In any case I would never depart IFR out of Telluride in the snow in a Bonanza but that is just me.

Also, what is below you off the departure end of 27 is only euphemistically a "valley". It's more like a canyon.

TELLURIDE, CO
TELLURIDE RGNL (TEX) AMDT 2 11181 (FAA)
TAKEOFF MINIMUMS: Rwy 9, NA-obstacles.
Rwy 27, std. w/ min. climb of 463' per NM to 10500, or
5400-3 for climb in visual conditions.

DEPARTURE PROCEDURE: Rwy 27, climb to 12000 via
heading 273° to intercept the ETL R-096 to ETL VOR/ DME, or for climb in visual conditions: cross Telluride Airport westbound at or above 14300 via ETL R-095 to ETL VOR/DME. Note: All aircraft cross ETL VOR/DME at or above airway MEA/MCA for direction of flight.

NOTE: Rwy 27, trees beginning 32' from DER 421' left of centerline, up to 100' AGL/9381' MSL. Trees beginning 173' from DER, 46' right of centerline, up to 100' AGL/9094’ MSL. Light support structure 8' from DER, 60' left and right of centerline, up to 4' AGL/9039' MSL. Terrain beginning at DER, left and right of centerline, up to 9075' MSL.
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ClimbnSink said:
Pros seem to have the same accident rate as the rest of us on their days off.
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That may be true (I don't know one way or the other), but shouldn't all the recurrent training they do at least make them a little safer?
 
dans2992 said:
That may be true (I don't know one way or the other), but shouldn't all the recurrent training they do at least make them a little safer?
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Nope. Airline safety comes from a long list of sops and 'mother may I?' requirements. Not superior piloting. Go free range GA and we are all equally retarded in our decision making.
 
1mi, light snow, light wind does not seem to be horrible conditions.

I'm not convinced it was a decision making problem.
 
dans2992 said:
1mi, light snow, light wind does not seem to be horrible conditions.

I'm not convinced it was a decision making problem.
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No one knows what the problem was, and I am not claiming to know. We obviously have some very experienced pilots in a well equipped airplane (avionics-wise). I only say that departing from that particular airport in that airplane in those conditions wouldn't be my idea of a good time.
 
The safety of your airline flight comes from a synergy of things coming together.

An airplane that can fly with one engine inop from the runway, climb, cruise, approach and landing.

An airplane with multiple, redundant system and structures.

A professional, rested, well trained crew who's job is not on the line if they say no.

The peer pressure of a multiple pilot crew.

An army of support professionals you never see. This includes airline, FAA, and airport employees.



ClimbnSink said:
Nope. Airline safety comes from a long list of sops and 'mother may I?' requirements. Not superior piloting. Go free range GA and we are all equally retarded in our decision making.
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N801BH said:
Hmmm..

Looks more and more like a mechanical to me... :sad::sad::sad:...
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Dunno, this was apparently the METAR at the time of departure:

METAR KTEX 161835Z AUTO 08004KT 1 1/2SM -SN BKN010 OVC014 00/M01 A3017

Surface temp at freezing.
 
Fearless Tower said:
No one knows what the problem was, and I am not claiming to know. We obviously have some very experienced pilots in a well equipped airplane (avionics-wise). I only say that departing from that particular airport in that airplane in those conditions wouldn't be my idea of a good time.
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What many here may not realize is the wind. Just because ATIS/AWOS at the field was tolerable, winds aloft, even just a few hundred feet AGL may have been catastrophic. For the past week or so the jet stream has been parked over Colorado with winds on the western slope recorded at 40-60 mph with gusts to 80 above the tree line. Complicate this with airports on the side of a mountain. Last Saturday there was 1 operation at Front Range (ftg) and that's the east side of the state.
 
There appear to be several other departures from TEX around that time (jets). Maybe the NTSB can try to get ahold of them to see what they experienced.

Are there any resources out there that would show winds aloft in that area at that time?
 
Fearless Tower said:
There are a few people over at Pro Pilot World that knew them well. A lot of folks in shock.
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Also more people surprised/disturbed about the decision to take off in those conditions at Telluride in a Debonair.

Sometimes it's interesting to compare how both boards react to the same event.
 
dans2992 said:
1mi, light snow, light wind does not seem to be horrible conditions.
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Nope, not horrible. Horrible was 1,000 AGL when they went into the broken layer with obscured mountains covering 90% (or better) of the space around them. Horrible was the rotors off the peaks which are upwind. Horrible was the freezing level at the cloud level. Horrible was that they had no viable outs - fly the canyon w/1 mile vis? not likely successful.

Single engine IMC in the Colorado mountains in the winter...not a real good idea unless that single engine burns Jet-A w/prist.
 
N801BH said:
MY money is still on a mechanical failure...:redface:
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I'm not convinced on anything. It does appear from the picture to be a lower speed impact. Its definitely not the result of a spiral dive.

The IFR climb gradient for departure from TEX is 465 feet per nautical mile. (not FPM)

To convert that into feet per minute, assuming no wind and a climb airspeed of 80-95 IAS they would need somewhere around 750-850 FPM to meet the IFR climb gradient.

There is a little safety buffer built in that gradient, but not much. I don't have a performance chart handy, but with 3/4 seats full that climb gradient seems tough for a normally aspirated deb to meet.
 
As for the clouds at 1000 AGL, I don't think they even made it to 1000 AGL.

For the climb gradient - that is only for the first 1500 ft of climb and if they can cross the end of the (long) runway higher than 35 ft, they'll already have a head start.

Granted if there were serious downdrafts, that would be a problem.

What is Vx in a Debonair?
 
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dans2992 said:
As for the clouds at 1000 AGL, I don't think they even made it to 1000 AGL.

For the climb gradient - that is only for the first 1500 ft of climb and if they can cross the end of the (long) runway higher than 35 ft, they'll already have a head start.


What is Vx in a Debonair?
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If they couldn't climb fast enough for the first 1500 feet that might put them into the side of a mountain at 1000' or less above the runway.

I don't know exactly but Vx increases with altitude and should be pretty close to Vy (which decreases w altitude) so I might guess 85-90 kias climb
 
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dell30rb said:
I'm not convinced on anything. It does appear from the picture to be a lower speed impact. Its definitely not the result of a spiral dive.

The IFR climb gradient for departure from TEX is 465 feet per nautical mile. (not FPM)

To convert that into feet per minute, assuming no wind and a climb airspeed of 80-95 IAS they would need somewhere around 750-850 FPM to meet the IFR climb gradient.

There is a little safety buffer built in that gradient, but not much. I don't have a performance chart handy, but with 3/4 seats full that climb gradient seems tough for a normally aspirated deb to meet.
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This pic gives some mixed messages.. At least to me..https://twitter.com/DurangoHerald/status/435416822012059649/photo/1

Looks like it hit a bit higher upslope and slid downhill to its spot where it burned.

Right wing is sheared off about 4-5 feet inboard.

Burn pattern shows as if it had a fuselage fuel tank, not much fire damage around the wing tanks themselves.

Flaps were down at impact.

It's like they knew they were going down and tried to hit at minimum speed... IMHO...
 
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