Death of the Corvette

[ElPaso Pilot]

My sister had one of those. It was a semiautomatic, no clutch but a three speed manual shifter. First gear was a granny gear that almost never got used. The directions were to put it into first and accelerate (and I use that term loosely), then at around 25 mph, pull it into second.

To say it was slow was an understatement. 0-60 was probably more that 20 seconds.

Gotcha beat in the slow race. Co-worker’s father still has his autostick beetle, with air conditioning.

 

[denverpilot]

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a19056498/2018-mercedes-amg-e63-s-wagon-test-review/

That’s the one.

I’ve had some off board conversations with @Ted DuPuis about it since he’s the resident Mercedes maintenance technician. Ha.

Of course it won’t be a 2018... good god that’s a big price tag. But the older V12 ones that get a whopping 8 MPG show up in decent shape for a LOT less money from time to time.

It’s all Doug Demuro and Tyler Hoover’s faults. And knowing my luck I’ll get the Tyler Hoover one that needs thousands in repairs before it’s “sorted”. LOL.

 

[denverpilot]

I can sell you what's left of my parts car - it's a '95 Mustang. Missing an engine, transmission, and rear axle, but I've got some parts* from all three of those that I can include in the purchase!

I think if I were to go with a Mustang I'd want to take the time to find one of the Cobra R models.

*the broken ones

So THATs how to keep Fords running! Own three! Two for parts...

LOL.

 

[denverpilot]

Not a wagon, but I'm starting to think about selling the E55. Interested?

Ohhhhh crap. Lemme think about that....

Well and ask She Who Shall Be Obeyed while I’m “thinking”. LOL.

She’s in a mood this week. Completely reorganized the kitchen, is selling off crap we should have sold years ago (anybody want two compete sets of China? Or all of her luggage from her luggage fettish? Hahaha.) and even moved... my coffee pot.

To a new place on the counter. Three feet further from the kitchen entrance closest to the bedrooms. This really could mean life or death on certain mornings and ... she moved it! It’s also now NOT under the cupboard with the coffee mugs. My engineer brain is unhappy right now! Hahaha.

Actually I bought this tonight...

Neighbor bought a spare for his mowing business and ended up having the guy he wanted to hire to put on it, flake out this summer, so he decided to sell it because he’s a dyed in the wool Kubota guy.

I don’t even want to say what I “stole” it for. That’s an $8900 mower, retail. I didn’t pay anywhere near that.

They did get a kick out of watching the klutz (thanks to the new drugs) trying to load it in my trailer though. Hey, at least I’m good for entertainment value right now!

Drives nice. Might need new blades. He said he wasn’t happy with the cut but has not checked to see if they’d been ground down by the previous commercial operator yet or what. I told him I wasn’t finish cutting any golf greens so if it needs blades I’ll deal with it.

Seems to run well. I think one of the plastic covers over the choke and throttle cables is missing but who cares... also missing the discharge chute but I’d just knock it off on something anyway.

And... bonus points... there’s a dealer who handles that brand and does repairs, no kidding... that shares our back parking lot at work. If I need significant repairs, into the trailer and drive to work and unload it at their dock door. LOL. Can’t beat that with a stick. Beaver Valley Equipment out of Kansas somewhere apparently...

Anyway, I’m sure it’s been rode hard and put away wet, but that beefy a machine for four acres is total overkill. Getting it for Home Depot junk machine prices is just icing on the cake.

 

[denverpilot]

P.S. I told Karen to look out. I have my first power chair ... but it’ll cut you! LOL.

 

[DaleB]

That’s the one.

I’ve had some off board conversations with @Ted DuPuis about it since he’s the resident Mercedes maintenance technician. Ha.

Of course it won’t be a 2018... good god that’s a big price tag. But the older V12 ones that get a whopping 8 MPG show up in decent shape for a LOT less money from time to time.

It’s all Doug Demuro and Tyler Hoover’s faults. And knowing my luck I’ll get the Tyler Hoover one that needs thousands in repairs before it’s “sorted”. LOL.

8 MPG? Hardly. I just drove my S600 across Iowa yesterday. Cruise at 80, 21 MPG. I get 13-ish in town, short trips in hilly areas. It’s not bad at all. And it’s just stupid fast.

I made a couple of mistakes when I bought it, and I’m about $3K deep in repairs and catch-up maintenance. But, overall I’m still OK on the deal. I now have all the software diagnostic tools a dealer has. I didn’t buy one with high mileage; mine is still under 50K. Hoovie has different priorities than I do.

I can tell you this much... it won’t be my last Mercedes.

 

[denverpilot]

Hoovie has different priorities than I do.

I can tell you this much... it won’t be my last Mercedes.

Hoovie has different priorities than most of the planet... but he also gets to write those losses off on his taxes.

He just might be secretly brilliant. Hahahaha.

Yeah I never paid ANY attention to Mercedes growing up. Those were “rich people cars” around my house and family.

But they do make some really nice stuff from time to time.

I suspect you’re more of a Legit Street Cars kinda guy? He’s fun. Knows his Mercedes stuff well from his previous life as a dealer tech, and scores some sweet deals from time to time.

The one where the seller thought the motor was blown and it only needed $100 in parts and a couple hours of labor. I WISH I had that kind of luck. Ha.

 

[Bill]

I can tell you this much... it won’t be my last Mercedes.

I've owned several, I may own another one again someday, who knows. I loved the E320 CDI, 369 lb-ft of torque at 1800rpm makes for nice rapid launches off the red light.

 

[DaleB]

Hoovie has different priorities than most of the planet... but he also gets to write those losses off on his taxes.

He just might be secretly brilliant. Hahahaha.

Yeah I never paid ANY attention to Mercedes growing up. Those were “rich people cars” around my house and family.

But they do make some really nice stuff from time to time.

I suspect you’re more of a Legit Street Cars kinda guy? He’s fun. Knows his Mercedes stuff well from his previous life as a dealer tech, and scores some sweet deals from time to time.

The one where the seller thought the motor was blown and it only needed $100 in parts and a couple hours of labor. I WISH I had that kind of luck. Ha.

I don’t really follow any of the YT guys. There aren’t enough hours in the day anyway. But in brief, my hobby isn’t fixing broken cars, or nursing unreliable POS vehicles along. I want the same kind of dead certain reliability from my cars that I want from the airplane. If it’s broken, I’ll fix it because I have to, not because I like it. Of course the ‘66 Mustang under restoration kind of theories a wrench in that statement, but everyone makes a mistake once in a while.

The Merc is almost there, and I’ve ONLY put up with its issues so far because A) it’s my own darned fault I bought a car with problems, and I want to use it as a learning experience so I do better on the next one; and B) it’s just incredible to drive. It’s the first car I’ve owned since I was a teenager that I’d love to take to a dragstrip just to see what I can really do with it. It’s hard to explain the level of luxury to someone who hasn’t been in one.

I also never paid any attention to Mercs before. They were way out of my price range was all I knew. I went looking for a luxury sedan with an over abundance of power. I was looking at Audis and BMWs and Panameras, but once I found the S-class it was pretty much all over. I’m even thinking an AMG SUV might be fun for the next one. I dunno, haven’t tried one out yet.

Used luxury cars are some of the best bang for the buck you can find, though. They usually have very advanced features and they depreciate breathtakingly fast. My ‘07 has things you don’t typically see in a car this old, like adaptive cruise control for example. It’s in near new condition inside and out, and cost me about 16% of its original sticker (which was about $140K in 2007). Even with what I’ve spent addressing things I wish I’d caught before I bought it, I’m still at about 18% - and less than the cost of a modestly equipped new Accord or Camry. And they won’t do 0-60 (or better yet, 20-120) like this, or give you a heated back massage while they’re doing it.

 

[DaleB]

I've owned several, I may own another one again someday, who knows. I loved the E320 CDI, 369 lb-ft of torque at 1800rpm makes for nice rapid launches off the red light.

I’m still trying to learn to launch the S600. 612 lb-ft of torque at 1800-ish RPM. The ESP does its best, but...

 

[wsuffa]

P.S. I told Karen to look out. I have my first power chair ... but it’ll cut you! LOL.

Doesn't look like there's a beer holder.

NEXT!

 

[wsuffa]

Heresy!!!

View attachment 76309

Yeah - it's called "get out and push".

 

[asicer]

That’s the one.

I’ve had some off board conversations with @Ted DuPuis about it since he’s the resident Mercedes maintenance technician. Ha.

Of course it won’t be a 2018... good god that’s a big price tag. But the older V12 ones that get a whopping 8 MPG show up in decent shape for a LOT less money from time to time.

It’s all Doug Demuro and Tyler Hoover’s faults. And knowing my luck I’ll get the Tyler Hoover one that needs thousands in repairs before it’s “sorted”. LOL.

I'm disappointed the E63 wagons didn't have the rear facing seats that the E55 wagons had. Put the nieces back there so they can wave at the Porsche you just blew off the line.

 

[SoonerAviator]

If you can look at this pic and say 'I wouldn't want to drive that', you aren't a "car guy". Even if one is generally anti-GM/Chevy/American sports car, they got it right on the C7. I think the lines/body will stand the test of time in terms of design, and the interior actually didn't have much the European guys to complain about like the C4-C6 models did. I can ignore much of the later (post-'72) C3s and all of the C4s. I think a 2019 C7 Grand Sport or Z06 will look good sitting next to the '67 Lynndale Blue C2 I'll likely inherit from the FIL unless I do something to make him re-write his will. The C8 may push the limits of performance, but I'd see it from a distance and not know whether it was a Ferrari, Lambo, or half-dozen other exotics until it got up close. Just about every other 'Vette is easily distinguishable from a long way out (C4 excepted, imo).

 

[SoCal RV Flyer]

As many of you may have seen, the C8 (8th generation) Corvette was announced in the past week. I don't follow much with new cars, but I did read up on a bit.

I will give GM a lot of credit with what they're delivering, especially at the price point. Performance wise, the new Corvette seems like it will compete well against current offerings from Ferrari and Lamborghini. The mid engine arrangement, with a few economical exceptions, is a layout that you only end up seeing on supercars.

Then there's the transmission. The dual-clutch automatic transmission. From a technological perspective, it's what you find on the supercars these days. Some argue they're not automatics because they don't use a torque converter and it's more or less the guts of a manual transmission, but specifically designed such that it's actuated by the computer rather than a human rowing gears in a traditional gearbox.

Manual transmissions have been dropping out of cars as available options one by one. Of course, the Corvette has offered an automatic transmission for decades - there's nothing new there. And while I will get on the case of anyone who purchases a car like that with an automatic, I don't bemoan the companies for offering them. So long as they also offer a manual.

Once a car or a company stops offering manual transmission, it becomes dead to me. When I was in high school, the beautiful gated shifters that Ferrari and Lamborghini offered in their cars were hallmarks of the beautiful Italian interiors. No shift boot required on these. And while some said the gate made shifting harder, it was so beautiful to look at. Now neither company offers a proper manual transmission. BMW, a long term holdout with "The Ultimate Driving Machine" has ceased to offer a manual transmission option.

When the C7 came out, I felt like GM was trying to make the Corvette look too much like an Italian supercar. It was losing its identity as the American supercar. The C8 pushes that moreso. The Corvette has always supposed to have been the highest performing vehicle in the GM lineup. Because of that, I can forgive the departure from the front engine rear drive layout, and I can commend them offering a dual-clutch transmission as an option. But to eliminate the manual transmission entirely removes the option for the person who wishes to own one for the driving experience and not just the 0-60 times.

I'm sure it's fast. The technology is neat. But the man-machine interaction has now been replaced by man-computer interaction essentially fully, and the computer is the machine.

With the Dodge Viper production ending in 2017 and the 2020 Viper set to have a V8 instead of the previous V10, I am wondering if they will do similarly. The Viper was never available with anything but a manual transmission from its inception in 1990, but it was also never available with anything other than a V10.

I also wonder how long before Ford stops offering manual transmission in Mustangs.

For now, old curmudgeons like me can still build manual transmission cars, as Tremec has a good business selling TKO (5-speed) and Magnum (T-56 6-speed) transmissions available brand new, shipped to your door, and we can keep manual transmission vehicles driving with the cottage industry of a few small vendors producing replacement parts. But building a car is not for everyone, and achieving the sort of interior fit and finish that one gets with a production car on a homebuilt is not something that is generally achievable.

RIP, Corvette.

You're gonna have to pry the manual shift knob on my ND Miata from my cold, dead hand!

The C8 loses its iconic Vette status even more by abandoning the time-honored front engine placement and proportions.

 

[tspear]

You're gonna have to pry the manual shift knob on my ND Miata from my cold, dead hand!

The C8 loses its iconic Vette status even more by abandoning the time-honored front engine placement and proportions.

The problem is the C7 effectively was the end of the line in terms of performance for a front engine car. To much power, not enough weight in the back, CG issues in turns... The list goes on.
There are really two ways to solve it. Put the ICE in back, or go electric and put an engine at every wheel with the battery pack on the floor across the whole car.

Tim

 

[FormerHangie]

If you can look at this pic and say 'I wouldn't want to drive that', you aren't a "car guy". Even if one is generally anti-GM/Chevy/American sports car, they got it right on the C7. I think the lines/body will stand the test of time in terms of design, and the interior actually didn't have much the European guys to complain about like the C4-C6 models did. I can ignore much of the later (post-'72) C3s and all of the C4s. I think a 2019 C7 Grand Sport or Z06 will look good sitting next to the '67 Lynndale Blue C2 I'll likely inherit from the FIL unless I do something to make him re-write his will. The C8 may push the limits of performance, but I'd see it from a distance and not know whether it was a Ferrari, Lambo, or half-dozen other exotics until it got up close. Just about every other 'Vette is easily distinguishable from a long way out (C4 excepted, imo).

I was hoping to get a drive in a Z06, but the supercar experience that comes to town had trouble with the automatic transmissions overheating, and stopped offering it. Hopefully the C8 version will be better and I'll get a chance to drive it.

 

[SoCal RV Flyer]

The problem is the C7 effectively was the end of the line in terms of performance for a front engine car. To much power, not enough weight in the back, CG issues in turns... The list goes on.
There are really two ways to solve it. Put the ICE in back, or go electric and put an engine at every wheel with the battery pack on the floor across the whole car.

Tim

But that depends on where you want to go...take it to the supercar level, or have a stupidly fast sports car that's somewhat affordable. A front engine/rear transaxle layout has some real controllability advantages...mid-engine layout with its lower polar moment of inertia is good for a race car, sometimes twitchy for a street car. Sometimes the exotics are dumbed down a little in terms of increased understeer so the novice won't get into oversteer trouble with rear weight bias, which can dilute the driving experience. I've had many great track days/autocrosses with my Porsche 944S2 & C6 Vette, both front engine/rear transaxle.

 

[SoonerAviator]

I was hoping to get a drive in a Z06, but the supercar experience that comes to town had trouble with the automatic transmissions overheating, and stopped offering it. Hopefully the C8 version will be better and I'll get a chance to drive it.

Eh, the original 2015/2016 Z06 had some issues with overheating, mostly during 20-30 minutes of intense track runs related to the numerous radiators and supercharger. The 17+ got some fixes made and additional cooling capacity which don't seem to suffer those issues. Most who didn't run in upper 90's temps on a track won't see any overheating issues at all for typical driving. I could definitely see an issue being stuck in traffic idling for long periods of time and no airflow through the radiator causing issues (like just about every other Corvette before it, lol). I haven't had a chance to drive the C7 at all, but have ridden in a C7 Grand Sport a few times. Absolute monster of a car, even without the Z06's insane power.

 

[SoonerAviator]

But that depends on where you want to go...take it to the supercar level, or have a stupidly fast sports car that's somewhat affordable. A front engine/rear transaxle layout has some real controllability advantages...mid-engine layout with its lower polar moment of inertia is good for a race car, sometimes twitchy for a street car. Sometimes the exotics are dumbed down a little in terms of increased understeer so the novice won't get into oversteer trouble with rear weight bias, which can dilute the driving experience. I've had many great track days/autocrosses with my Porsche 944S2 & C6 Vette, both front engine/rear transaxle.

Precisely why I wish they would have just made it a separate model. When it was rumored to be the "Zora" platform, I thought it would be better to offer it as an all-out supercar instead of using the Corvette nameplate. I understand the evolution of the product, but I fear that it's going to evolve into something that only comes available for $90-100K+ and might lose the best-value in sports cars title.

 

[N1120A]

Automatic transmissions statistically make drivers less safe. They also make them more boring. I will buy manual until I can't anymore and then will buy used manuals.

 

[LDJones]

I hear what Ted's saying, but if someone wants to give me a Dead Corvette I'll be thrilled to accept it and give it a good "tomb" attached to my house.

 

[Ted]

Precisely why I wish they would have just made it a separate model. When it was rumored to be the "Zora" platform, I thought it would be better to offer it as an all-out supercar instead of using the Corvette nameplate. I understand the evolution of the product, but I fear that it's going to evolve into something that only comes available for $90-100K+ and might lose the best-value in sports cars title.

That part will be interesting to see. The fact that GM has opted to make Corvette essentially its own brand that's supposed to be the flagship of performance boxes them into a corner in some ways, as we're seeing with the C8. As mentioned before, other GM cars have, at times, beaten the Corvette in performance, but that's never been for long as GM management has then squashed it. Take the Buick GNX for example, and as was also mentioned the Pontiac Trans Am.

I guess it works for them, and maybe it's the right decision for them financially. Really, my only complaint (like I said) was the lack of a manual transmission.

I hear what Ted's saying, but if someone wants to give me a Dead Corvette I'll be thrilled to accept it and give it a good "tomb" attached to my house.

And if someone gave me one, I would promptly sell it and buy a car with the proper transmission.

 

[Ted]

Oh, and @denverpilot I can't stand Doug DeMuro. Do not understand why he's popular at all. His opinions and "Doug score" don't really make much sense whenever I've watched one of his videos. Hoovie I'm more lukewarm on and at least he has some funny things. Tavarish has just gotten annoying and dude may know about some European exotics but don't know a damn thing about American trucks.

 

[DaleB]

Oh, and @denverpilot I can't stand Doug DeMuro. Do not understand why he's popular at all. His opinions and "Doug score" don't really make much sense whenever I've watched one of his videos. Hoovie I'm more lukewarm on and at least he has some funny things. Tavarish has just gotten annoying and dude may know about some European exotics but don't know a damn thing about American trucks.

I don’t follow or regularly watch any of them. I was unaware of Hoovie and Tavarish until after I bought the S600. My son is a DeMuro fan; I’m not. Hoovie has quite a collection, much of which I can’t imagine why anyone would bother saving from the crusher to be honest. “Has character” does not (in my humble opinion) always override “but is a giant steaming pile of sh## and was even when new”.

 

[flyingbrit]

Automatic transmissions statistically make drivers less safe.

Got a cite for that? Some say the opposite; an automatic allows the driver to concentrate on road conditions etc, although I've never seen any data to back this up.

 

[Ted]

I don’t follow or regularly watch any of them. I was unaware of Hoovie and Tavarish until after I bought the S600. My son is a DeMuro fan; I’m not. Hoovie has quite a collection, much of which I can’t imagine why anyone would bother saving from the crusher to be honest. “Has character” does not (in my humble opinion) always override “but is a giant steaming pile of sh## and was even when new”.

I more regularly watch Jay Leno's Garage, although a lot of the things he's had more recently have been uninteresting to me so I really haven't followed him recently as much either.

Hoovie's sort of begging people to like him and subscribe to his page. He's got no mechanical ability and mostly buys the cheapest [whatever] and finds out how deep into it he is. What I like about it is it shows people the reality of "cheapest car is always the most expensive" (which we know applies to aviation too).

He seems to be growing up some recently (and maybe some of that has to do with having a better income stream to support it) buying some nicer cars. Recently trading his McLaren for a Gallardo was a good move, major thumbs up for that. The McLaren didn't do much for me. I agree that most of his fleet is stuff that belongs in the crusher, not on the road.

 

[DaleB]

I agree that most of his fleet is stuff that belongs in the crusher, not on the road.

One needs only to see a Le Baron there to understand that.

I’m also left shaking my head at some of Hoovie’s decisions. I guess when you’re making a bunch of money with the YT channel, you can disregard the fact that you may have just dumped a pail of money into a POS that will make your life miserable.

I thought the Tesla was kinda cool... until I found out that ANYTHING that goes wrong means a flatbed trip to a dealer in another city for whatever they feel like charging you. No sane and reasonably intelligent person would do that, barring some other source of justification.

 

[EdFred]

Got a cite for that? Some say the opposite; an automatic allows the driver to concentrate on road conditions etc, although I've never seen any data to back this up.

If you gotta shift, it makes it harder to text/read/put on make-up/eat/etc... so you would be more focused on the road.

 

[JOhnH]

If you gotta shift, it makes it harder to text/read/put on make-up/eat/etc... so you would be more focused on the road.

That's the best answer I have heard yet.

 

[SoonerAviator]

That's the best answer I have heard yet.

There could be something psychological about having to manually row the gears also forcing you to pay more attention to traffic and your surroundings in order to allow you to predict what gear you need to be in. No citation for that, but it could work for the city driving. Highway probably wouldn't make much difference since you aren't doing much shifting once you're on the open road.

 

[DaleB]

That's the best answer I have heard yet.

And yet with no apparent statistics to back it up... I’d love to know where the claim originated.

 

[SoCal RV Flyer]

And yet with no apparent statistics to back it up... I’d love to know where the claim originated.

PoA and you want hard stats? That's a tall order, mister!

 

[Ted]

One needs only to see a Le Baron there to understand that.

I’m also left shaking my head at some of Hoovie’s decisions. I guess when you’re making a bunch of money with the YT channel, you can disregard the fact that you may have just dumped a pail of money into a POS that will make your life miserable.

I thought the Tesla was kinda cool... until I found out that ANYTHING that goes wrong means a flatbed trip to a dealer in another city for whatever they feel like charging you. No sane and reasonably intelligent person would do that, barring some other source of justification.

Keep in mind part of his business model is to try to astound and amaze people with his stupid decisions. It's different from Jay Leno where the goal is to actually show an interesting car and talk about it and its history, and to show what goes into an actual restoration or ownership of one of these types of vehicles. It's a much more educated show.

Hoovie tries to capitalize on the "Look at me, I'm an idiot" and I think is still working on how to execute it, although he has over 700k subscribers so he's doing ok. Doug, not sure what his model is but it works apparently. And Tavarish is basically have a bunch of hoopties (many of which he buys from Hoovie) and do interesting/different stuff, which normally seems to fail or at least not get completed.

 

[Lowflynjack]

Ted: The Corvette died when they stopped making it with round taillights.

I think it died when they went to four tail lights.

 

[denverpilot]

I think other people covered it with Hoovie, it’s all a show. His folks are loaded and in the restaurant biz and his real job is working for them.

Even if he’s made it to a million viewers, YT demonetization lately means he’s not making much on the channel. Remember he also gets a paycheck from AutoTrader.com for doing that and it’s mainly advertising for them. Same with Demuro.

Demuro’s “score” is totally made up and I’m convinced he tweaks each one to put the vehicle he’s playing with right where he wants it in the totally contrived “comparison” vehicles he compares that one to. The full spreadsheet on Google Sheets makes little sense unless you cherry pick it for categories.

I like when he thinks features that are obvious to everyone are some new “quirk and feature” just because he’s younger and has never seen one. And his back story on his “More Doug Demuro” channel is interesting.

He’s basically the online equivalent to many of our aviation videocaster “journalists”, not that great but mostly just follows the YT method of generating views, act like a doofus with a theme.

Kinda like comparing Steveo or FlightChops or Corporate Pilot Life to say, a Paul Bertorelli. No offense of course.

And it’s ALL better to watch than what’s on my regular TV... ugh. Would rather watch YT doofuses doing topics I like than sit-coms any day of the week.

 

[denverpilot]

Tavarish has just gotten annoying and dude may know about some European exotics but don't know a damn thing about American trucks.

I forgot Tovarish. He always kinda bored me but I see he must have gone into trucks? Yeah that sounds like a disaster. Ha.

 

[catmandu]

If you gotta shift, it makes it harder to text/read/put on make-up/eat/etc... so you would be more focused on the road.

That's the best answer I have heard yet.

And yet with no apparent statistics to back it up... I’d love to know where the claim originated.

Bought both kids used Audi A4's with a stick as their first car, with just the text thing in mind.

They're still alive, and still driving those cars.

Stats for life, beyotch!

[emoji] Mic Drop, as the kids say [/emoji]

Real emoji:

 

[weilke]

Automatic transmissions statistically make drivers less safe. They also make them more boring. I will buy manual until I can't anymore and then will buy used manuals.

There may not be any data to support that claim, for now I'll believe it because I want it to be true ;-)
At this point I am working on eliminating automatics from my fleet before my kids start driving. I am down to one, and that is my mother in law's daily driver.

 

[DaleB]

Bought both kids used Audi A4's with a stick as their first car, with just the text thing in mind.

They're still alive, and still driving those cars.

Stats for life, beyotch!

[emoji] Mic Drop, as the kids say [/emoji]

Real emoji:

Counterpoint. Most of my extended family have probably never driven a stick. My kids all drive automatics. All still alive and none have ever killed anyone.

Every person I have ever known who’s been killed on motorcycles had manual transmissions.

Anecdotes are not statistics, you know.