Dear auto manufacturers.....[rant]

I just remembered I need to replace a front side marker bulb on a Subaru. So, let the front end disassembly begin!
 
MauleSkinner said:
So they don’t have those @#&%/* foot thumpers.
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The ABS on my Mariner (several years ago) would create a noticeable vibration, but I'm not so sure it was a foot thumper, more like feeling feedback or just the natural consequence of being so close to the brakes and the mechanical action. I wouldn't expect that ABS activation on a jet could be felt in the cockpit...way too much mass between the brake and the cockpit.
 
Bob Noel said:
The ABS on my Mariner (several years ago) would create a noticeable vibration, but I'm not so sure it was a foot thumper, more like feeling feedback or just the natural consequence of being so close to the brakes and the mechanical action. I wouldn't expect that ABS activation on a jet could be felt in the cockpit...way too much mass between the brake and the cockpit.
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It’s not about mass, it’s system design.
 
Matthew said:
I just remembered I need to replace a front side marker bulb on a Subaru. So, let the front end disassembly begin!
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Oh man..... I will never buy another Subaru due to the inability to change head light bulbs without being a contortionist...

I changed out one on my wife's car. I don't swear but when I spit grass never grew back in that spot...
 
Zeldman said:
Oh man..... I will never buy another Subaru due to the inability to change head light bulbs without being a contortionist...

I changed out one on my wife's car. I don't swear but when I spit grass never grew back in that spot...
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I did that in the fall. I managed to do it without removing the front wheels. I have the scars to show for it. I *think* I can get to the marker lights by removing the air intake and moving the battery.
 
MauleSkinner said:
It’s not about mass, it’s system design.
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Question on those 40-50 year old jet designs you're referring to. How are the brakes on the wheels connected to the pedals? On a standard car/truck with hydraulic brakes, your foot is pushing a rod that goes into a master cylinder, then pushing fluid through to the brakes.

On a big and heavy jet, I am assuming that the actuation is more similar to me operating hydraulics on my front end loader, where you're actually opening a valve that hydraulic fluid under high pressure (which is pressurized from another source, not a pressure you're developing from your foot pushing on a master cylinder) go through. The latter system is more like how my bus works (which uses air brakes and the air is what actuates the brakes, you hitting the brake pedal simply opens a valve that lets that air flow), and is one that will provide no feedback, because you've not got a connection to the brakes, just to the valve that then allows pressure to go through to the brakes.
 
Ted said:
Question on those 40-50 year old jet designs you're referring to. How are the brakes on the wheels connected to the pedals? On a standard car/truck with hydraulic brakes, your foot is pushing a rod that goes into a master cylinder, then pushing fluid through to the brakes.

On a big and heavy jet, I am assuming that the actuation is more similar to me operating hydraulics on my front end loader, where you're actually opening a valve that hydraulic fluid under high pressure (which is pressurized from another source, not a pressure you're developing from your foot pushing on a master cylinder) go through. The latter system is more like how my bus works (which uses air brakes and the air is what actuates the brakes, you hitting the brake pedal simply opens a valve that lets that air flow), and is one that will provide no feedback, because you've not got a connection to the brakes, just to the valve that then allows pressure to go through to the brakes.
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For the most part, it’s master cylinder pressure as a control signal to the power brake/antiskid controller, but with the capability of sending master cylinder pressure all the way to the brakes for setting the parking brake with no hydraulic pressure.
 
MauleSkinner said:
For the most part, it’s master cylinder pressure as a control signal to the power brake/antiskid controller, but with the capability of sending master cylinder pressure all the way to the brakes for setting the parking brake with no hydraulic pressure.
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Got it. So not quite like air brakes on my bus, but sounds like a bit more of a disconnected/brake by wire system. My E55 had a system that sounds similar. I don't recall how the ABS felt on it (not even sure if I ever activated it), but it did have a very disconnected feeling brake pedal compared to a normal car. My suspicion is that this is essentially why you don't feel or observe that pulsing in your jet.

Incidentally, cars (even $100k cars) aren't designed or tested to the sorts of standards that Part 25 jets are or were even some time ago, especially when it comes to any sort of redundancy or proper failsafes. The system on my E55 was, as I recall, the first brake-by-wire system in a car - it was a 2003 model. It was prone to failure (this happened on mine) where Mercedes had an existing recall that essentially got you a free brake module replacement. It lacked real redundancy and if it failed you really didn't get much stopping ability.

I'm not a big fan of ABS on my cars and have yet to find a system that I'm really happy with, and I know that the ABS kicking the pedal back is a human factors issue. By now a lot of drivers have been raised with ABS and may be more used to it and what it does. Personally I'll take the kicking pedal if nothing else because that gives me some idea of where the traction limit is (if it's totally transparent then I don't know), but that could also be handled with a flashing like as is done when your traction control is working (something else that is generally transparent).
 
Ted said:
I'm not a big fan of ABS on my cars and have yet to find a system that I'm really happy with, and I know that the ABS kicking the pedal back is a human factors issue. By now a lot of drivers have been raised with ABS and may be more used to it and what it does. Personally I'll take the kicking pedal if nothing else because that gives me some idea of where the traction limit is (if it's totally transparent then I don't know), but that could also be handled with a flashing like as is done when your traction control is working (something else that is generally transparent).
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The way to use ABS in a car is to push the pedal harder until you feel the pulsing. If you do not feel pulsing, you are not using the maximum traction.

If you hear the tires screaming and large clouds of smoke, your ABS has failed. :D

At the track, I do exercises with students to actually activate the ABS. It takes 3 or more tries to get people to actually push the brake pedal hard enough to activate the ABS. Some never get it.
 
Pinecone said:
The way to use ABS in a car is to push the pedal harder until you feel the pulsing. If you do not feel pulsing, you are not using the maximum traction.
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On the street, especially in slick conditions, you generally don't want to hit that point of maximum traction.

You are also assuming a well designed ABS system that is designed to get maximum braking performance out of a vehicle. To be clear, they are not all tuned to that level of perfection. The initial point of ABS was to maintain control of the vehicle by preventing the wheels locking up, and that still remains a primary goal of it in many street cars. In a track biased car it's goal is both control and maximizing braking.

At the track, I do exercises with students to actually activate the ABS. It takes 3 or more tries to get people to actually push the brake pedal hard enough to activate the ABS. Some never get it.
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I have no problems getting ABS to activate and know exactly how it behaves in my vehicles. But, see my point above. If I'm driving on the street (especially on a snowy day like today) and I get ABS activating, that tells me that I need to be giving myself more distance for stopping and shouldn't be getting to that point.

Also I'm not sure what cars you're running, but if they're on the track, I'm going to guess you're sticking to some higher performance cars where the ABS is likely better tuned for performance. On a lot of street cars the bias is definitely far away from maximum braking and biased towards maintaining controllability by not having locked tires. Some of the earlier systems were especially bad about severely hurting your braking performance if they kicked in. It's gotten better now, but go drive an 80s or 90s GM vehicle with ABS and see what you think of that. It doesn't take much of a driver to do better.

The ABS on my wife's Alfa Romeo Stelvio Quadrifoglio is excellent, but make no mistake, that is a car that was designed for the track - hence it being able to run the Nurburgring in 7:52. On my Ram? Meh at best, even as a 2017 model.
 
On the second or third driving lesson I gave to my teen, I had him nail the brakes from 30 mph so he'd know what ABS feels like. He took a defensive driving class and they did the same thing with him from about 40 mph, but adding a collision avoidance steering maneuver at the same time. I don't know why there are people out there who have never done it.
 
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Zeldman said:
Oh man..... I will never buy another Subaru due to the inability to change head light bulbs without being a contortionist...

I changed out one on my wife's car. I don't swear but when I spit grass never grew back in that spot...
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Method on the '10 Outback- crank wheels as far over as they go, peel back wheel well liner, reach in through gap, scratching the crap out of your arm in the process. Using blind feel, release the big cover cap on back of headlight housing, disconnect plug, release clip, pull bulb out. Re-installation is reverse of removal.

Approximately one month later get a letter from Subaru acknowledging the poor design and offering free headlight replacement at the dealer.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
On the second or third driving lesson I gave to my teen, I had him nail the brakes from 30 mph so he'd know what ABS feels like. He took a defensive driving class and they did the same thing with him from about 40 mph, but adding a collision avoidance steering maneuver at the same time. I don't know why there are people out there who have never done it.
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My driving test was basically prove you know what the signs mean, signal properly, merge properly. They didn't have us do anything like a performance maneuver. However, I was a farm kid with access to a cow pasture and empty gravel roads so.... I had opportunity to practice a few unapproved maneuvers.
 
cowman said:
However, I was a farm kid with access to a cow pasture and empty gravel roads so.... I had opportunity to practice a few unapproved maneuvers.
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That's how you learn that negotiating a sweeping curve involves the throttle as much as the steering wheel ... :D
 
cowman said:
However, I was a farm kid with access to a cow pasture and empty gravel roads so.
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I started driving at 14, but only in a field full of hay bales and that field needed to be emptied.

But yeah, at 15 I was terrorizing the gravel roads.

And still do at 63...
 
My driver's ed teacher in small-town Idaho encouraged his students, once they had their license, to find an empty parking lot the night of the first snowfall of the season and practice skid recovery--to include recovery from 180's and 360's.

We did so with abandon. I think the police learned to ignore the kids doing donuts in the parking lots, figuring they'd all gotten the same advice from the instructor.

I still do it on occasion.
 
my rant is all the modules they use today to control everything from wipers to fuel pumps. I think my truck 2009 GMC 1500 sierra has a dozen modules. Recently the fuel pump module failed. I bought one and found out it needed programed. Well the dealer needs the truck and the module to program. So I need to get the truck towed to a dealer and wait for a week before they can fit it into there schedule.... Not acceptable in my eyes
 
GaryM said:
My driver's ed teacher in small-town Idaho encouraged his students, once they had their license, to find an empty parking lot the night of the first snowfall of the season and practice skid recovery--to include recovery from 180's and 360's.

We did so with abandon. I think the police learned to ignore the kids doing donuts in the parking lots, figuring they'd all gotten the same advice from the instructor.

I still do it on occasion.
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Yup, I did a good number of parking lot circle track racing in snow/ice with a friend of mine at 16yrs old. My '88 300ZX vs his '90 Grand Am, lol. We had a local middle school between our houses which had a fairly open parking lot with a street light toward each end which made for a good oval track and figure-8 course. I had a fair amount of mud/snow experience with dirt bikes and 4 wheelers, but throwing something around with a extra few thousand pounds curb weight and street tires was a bit different.
 
AKBill said:
my rant is all the modules they use today to control everything from wipers to fuel pumps. I think my truck 2009 GMC 1500 sierra has a dozen modules. Recently the fuel pump module failed. I bought one and found out it needed programed. Well the dealer needs the truck and the module to program. So I need to get the truck towed to a dealer and wait for a week before they can fit it into there schedule.... Not acceptable in my eyes
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Yeah, I'm not sure why they are so adamant about tying every single component to a VIN#. ECU/GEM, fine, but there's no reason that components down the line from those main control boards need it.
 
GaryM said:
My driver's ed teacher in small-town Idaho encouraged his students, once they had their license, to find an empty parking lot the night of the first snowfall of the season and practice skid recovery--to include recovery from 180's and 360's.

We did so with abandon. I think the police learned to ignore the kids doing donuts in the parking lots, figuring they'd all gotten the same advice from the instructor.

I still do it on occasion.
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This is one of my normal snowfall practices, and I've encouraged the kids to do similar around our property with the go-karts.

Although I'd still rather be lucky than good.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Yeah, I'm not sure why they are so adamant about tying every single component to a VIN#. ECU/GEM, fine, but there's no reason that components down the line from those main control boards need it.
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Best guess is it’s part of their passive anti-theft systems and they’re engaged in the dubious practice of security through obscurity so they don’t want anyone to have access to their software.
 
cowman said:
Best guess is it’s part of their passive anti-theft systems and they’re engaged in the dubious practice of security through obscurity so they don’t want anyone to have access to their software.
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Nah. This is all about the "right to repair" debate.

Guaranteed revenue by locking repairs and service into dealerships vs. independents.

See the ongoing John Deere legislation, lawsuits, and debates.
 
AKBill said:
my rant is all the modules they use today to control everything from wipers to fuel pumps. I think my truck 2009 GMC 1500 sierra has a dozen modules. Recently the fuel pump module failed. I bought one and found out it needed programed. Well the dealer needs the truck and the module to program. So I need to get the truck towed to a dealer and wait for a week before they can fit it into there schedule.... Not acceptable in my eyes
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I know you can get the chinese knockoff programmer and then pay AC Delco for a 3 day pass to do all your updates. Not sure if it can do new modules with the VIN linkage or not.
 
cowman said:
I'm going to go hop back in one of my 70s beasts now. Everything rattles and the gas mileage is horrible but at least they don't beep at me or do anything on their own.
/rant
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Well, unless it's a '74... then it won't start until you buckle the seat belt!

LOL!

Paul
 
I seem to remember some Toyota or Datsun models back in the early 80s that would not start if the gas cap was loose.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I used to have an El Camino that wouldn’t start if the gas tank was empty.:rolleyes:
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My uncle had an early ‘70s Dodge pick-up that wouldn’t start if it was raining. Knowing what I know now (I was a young kid then), I’d say he had a cracked distributor.
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
Nah. This is all about the "right to repair" debate.

Guaranteed revenue by locking repairs and service into dealerships vs. independents.

See the ongoing John Deere legislation, lawsuits, and debates.
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The only flaw with this logic is that the auto manufacturer is a completely separate company from the dealership/service department.
 
Older Ferraris have an incredibly loud and annoying constant tone beep when the driver's door is open with the ignition on.. So annoying and worse than most modern cars.
 
My Ford Ranger has a strange thing that goes on.

When you start moving without the seatbelt fastened it will start dinging at intervals for a few seconds, then stop and repeat.

That's understandable I guess. But you can stop, take it out of gear (standard), set the parking brake, open the door, get out, close the door, walk away, and come back a few minutes later and it's still dinging. But if you fasten and then unfasten the seatbelt it never makes another sound ...
 
Matthew Johnson said:
The only flaw with this logic is that the auto manufacturer is a completely separate company from the dealership/service department.
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Maybe from a legal standpoint, but they have pretty tight contractual agreements that make it a pretty fine line. The manufacturer designs the car to try and drive service and repairs back to their authorized service centers (dealerships). If no one can repair the vehicle other than dealerships with very expensive software, it pretty much means the owner is in a tough spot when trying to repair it themselves. It's the whole reason John Deere, etc al, for sued over it and lost, sparking the "right to repair" laws.
 
Matthew Johnson said:
The only flaw with this logic is that the auto manufacturer is a completely separate company from the dealership/service department.
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Above comment, plus additionally, the dealers will utilize expensive OEM parts, which bring the manufacturer a tidy profit.

Joe Blow auto repair shop will often get his on the cheaper third party aftermarket supply.
 
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