Dead serious question

good point!
The reality of it is this,... after the blood, sweat, free labor and lives that my ancestor's shed for 400yrs to build this country, it's a real insult to be told to go "back to where they came from" just because we disagree on matters of race, justice and equality in America!

Their sacrifices has earned me a permanent right to this land as much as anyone else! How about we get you a ticket back to where your ancestors came from!

KSCessnaDriver and those that feel as you do.... Please think before making idiotic statements like that in the future:idea:

You have an equal right. Not sure that what my ancestors did to your ancestors requires me to make reparations to you now. If we're going to try and account for every wrong done by one person/race/culture/religion to another in history, and somehow make the books "balance".... not possible.

I don't feel I owe the Japanese anything for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I don't think they owe me anything for Pearl Harbor.

I don't think my wife owes me anything for giving me a concussion years ago when we were dating, any more than I owe her for wrongs I've done. We hurt each other and forgive each other and go on.

Somewhere along the line, the bill for slavery must be marked "paid in full". There can be legitimate debate about where that is, but if blacks argue that it will never be paid, then this tension between the races will never end.

Racial equality means (to me) that whenever a decision is being made, race isn't one of the factors, for bad OR for good. Gender equality is the same thing with regard to gender, and so on.

My Welsh and Irish ancestors were enslaved by the English, and some of them were transportees to America. When they got here things weren't a lot better for them - they were impoverished and uneducated and had to work menial jobs and in many ways were economically worse off than slaves of the same era (I freely grant that what slavery does to the soul is much worse). Through the generations they intermingled and improved and "melted" into the society.

Equality does not mean "righting past wrongs". It means "starting fresh, with a blind eye". And that goes both ways.

And it's hard.

If nothing else, I'm encouraged by the discussion. For such a charged topic this has been very civilized.
 
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It's obvious that blacks and whites will never see eye to eye on these issues. We live in two entirely different realities. I think I'll just stick to the non race, religion or political topics from now on.

As long as people keep grouping people by race you are right, we will never see eye to eye on this subject because that is racism. One of the dirty little secrets in our society is the most blacks are prejudice against whites as you have demonstrated in this thread.

To lump all blacks into one category of people wanting hands outs is wrong.

To lump all whites as being responsible for slavery is wrong.

To continue these myths is racism.

At 46 you are old enough to be "down with the struggle" , after you and I are gone maybe the younger generation will not see things so "black and white".
 
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It's obvious that blacks and whites will never see eye to eye on these issues. We live in two entirely different realities. I think I'll just stick to the non race, religion or political topics from now on.

Aw, don't do that. The view from your reality is too valuable. But it's not one of two. There are many more, and trying to distill them down to the "white view versus the black view," the "liberal view versus the conservative view," or some other dichotomy only continues to add credibility to something that is in itself artificial, to wit, the notion that there really is some qualitative, organic difference between people of different races.

The fact is that your statement itself is a generalization. There are whites who will agree with you wholeheartedly and support affirmative action and other programs to "level the playing field," and there are blacks who oppose these same programs because they consider them insulting, unnecessary, and likely to diminish the perceived value of their own accomplishments. Again, there are more than two realities.

One reality that is starting to change is that the "playing field" is starting to level itself out, but not in the way that Dr. King hoped for. Take a look at the faces in the crowd at "Occupy" demonstrations. They're mainly young and white; and once you get past their whininess, they do have a point: The opportunities for young people today to take their first steps along the road to the American Dream are indeed fewer than those of previous generations, and part of the reason for this is a greater concentration of wealth in the hands of fewer people than at any time, well, ever.

Looking at this wealth shift from a purely pragmatic point of view and putting aside the Left Wing-Right Wing rhetoric for a moment, the top-heavy nature of wealth distribution is problematic for several reasons.

One reason is that it breeds discontent, as was seen during the late Nineteenth and early Twentieth centuries, when the combined Marxist-Leninist parties were the fastest-growing sector of American politics, and the radical IWW (which favored the overthrow of capitalism) the fastest-growing labor movement.

Another reason is more fundamental. The U.S. is now largely a consumer economy, and an economy that is dependent on consumption cannot long survive when consumers are being systematically impoverished. It will eventually collapse. You can't have a consumer economy without consumers, and you can't be a consumer if you're broke.

So the Occupy protestors actually have a few good points, in my opinion. Where they and I diverge is that they tend to look toward government to fix things, whereas I don't, because I have found government to be a lot better at breaking things than fixing them. To me, looking to government for justice makes as much sense as seeking warmth from an iceberg.

From a race-relations standpoint, the ongoing, systematic impoverishment of the working class can go several ways. The way I would like is that people of different races finally realize that the struggle is and always has been about class, not race; and that as long as they keep propping up artificial walls of skin color and hair texture, they're fighting the enemy's battle.

I have long believed that a General Strike would be a much more immediate and effective means to solving the problem of the impoverishment of the masses than all the government "programs" in the world. Everyone just stay home until both the government and the "one percent," as the Occupy kids call them, are brought to their knees. Everyone. Stay. Home. Black people. White people. Brown people. Yellow people. Red People. Green people. Everyone. Stay. Home. That's the response I'd like to see happen.

The other way it could go is that racial divisions could intensify. I hope that most people today, especially most young people, are smart enough to be able to recognize the idiocy in that; but I'm by no means certain enough of that hope to dismiss the possibility of intensification. Certainly there are enough loudmouthed idiots on all sides who miss the essential point that they're all being screwed -- and not by each other.

The other question one has to ask is how much blame belongs to "the system," and how much to people who aren't making full use of what opportunities do exist? A lot of the Occupy kids I've spoken to are actually enrolled in College, but are disenchanted by the lack of job opportunities that they anticipate will exist when they graduate. Although I certainly understand their frustration when they look ahead at the rather dismal job market into which they'll soon be dumped, I also wonder if they wouldn't be better off concentrating on their school work for now.

Some years ago, one of my younger brothers took his first teaching job, in a neighborhood in Queens, NY called Springfield Gardens. Pretty early on in his teaching experience there, he noticed that his best-performing students were those who had been born in Africa, or who were first-generation Americans born of parents who had immigrated from Africa.

What these children had that set them apart, according to my brother, was a profound gratitude for the opportunity to learn -- period. By this he meant that American kids tended to look at education in terms of its potential usefulness to them in the future, whereas African kids valued education in and of itself, for its own worth.

As my brother met the children's parents, he learned that many of them (especially the mothers -- girls are much less likely than boys to attend school in Africa) were illiterate or barely-literate even in their native languages, having been denied the opportunity to attend school in their native countries. They were, in fact, being taught by their children. They eagerly looked forward to their kids coming home from school in the afternoon to teach them -- the parents -- all the things they'd learned in school that day, and thereby satisfy their own life-long thirst for knowledge.

What I got from my brother's observations was a hypothesis. I wonder if many black kids in America who are descended from the slave trade and all that followed it have inherited a certain hopelessness born of that "reality," to use your words. Could it be that this hopelessness engenders a "why bother?" attitude that devalues even those educational opportunities that do exist?

If that's the case, then again, the playing field seems to be leveling itself. That same hopelessness also is infecting a large number of young white people, if the Occupy movement is any barometer. Whether that's a good thing or not depends on which way they go with it.

-Rich
 
It's obvious that blacks and whites will never see eye to eye on these issues. We live in two entirely different realities. I think I'll just stick to the non race, religion or political topics from now on.

That would be a shame, it's very rare to have a rational debate on race where multiple points of view are represented. Even if we don't agree with someone's point of view, there is always something to be gained by understanding it.
 
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Some years ago, one of my younger brothers took his first teaching job, in a neighborhood in Queens, NY called Springfield Gardens. Pretty early on in his teaching experience there, he noticed that his best-performing students were those who had been born in Africa, or who were first-generation Americans born of parents who had immigrated from Africa.

What these children had that set them apart, according to my brother, was a profound gratitude for the opportunity to learn -- period. By this he meant that American kids tended to look at education in terms of its potential usefulness to them in the future, whereas African kids valued education in and of itself, for its own worth.

As my brother met the children's parents, he learned that many of them (especially the mothers -- girls are much less likely than boys to attend school in Africa) were illiterate or barely-literate even in their native languages, having been denied the opportunity to attend school in their native countries. They were, in fact, being taught by their children. They eagerly looked forward to their kids coming home from school in the afternoon to teach them -- the parents -- all the things they'd learned in school that day, and thereby satisfy their own life-long thirst for knowledge.
That's freakin awesome!


What I got from my brother's observations was a hypothesis. I wonder if many black kids in America who are descended from the slave trade and all that followed it have inherited a certain hopelessness born of that "reality," to use your words. Could it be that this hopelessness engenders a "why bother?" attitude that devalues even those educational opportunities that do exist?
It goes further than education. And when we talk about education, I view this as a class issue and not so much as a race issue, but that's a whole other topic. It's a complete environment and the education system is just a cog in the wheel. Take a look at any ghetto. The origin of the word ghetto, comes from the slums of Poland where the Nazis kept Jews before they were taken to camps and killed. Do you know why the housing projects are called projects? Because somewhere at sometime, someone discovered that if you overcrowd rats in a cage, they'd eventually turn vicious and kill each other for a piece of cheese. Not too far off from what the poor people are doing in the ghetto, so I'd say so far that the project is working. As an added assurance, throw in a liquor store and gun store on every corner and make every billboard a booze ad. It doesn't paint the sunniest picture. Especially if your family has been there for generations. Now look at what that does to the family structure. The most basic: how are you going to provide for your family so you can all survive? Education takes a backseat to survival instinct which is in every human being. Survival may means sometimes doing some unsavory things and here come the prisons. We all know where that leads... Very calculated.
 
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What I got from my brother's observations was a hypothesis. I wonder if many black kids in America who are descended from the slave trade and all that followed it have inherited a certain hopelessness born of that "reality," to use your words. Could it be that this hopelessness engenders a "why bother?" attitude that devalues even those educational opportunities that do exist?



-Rich

That's a quite accurate hypothesis in my opinion, and not restricted to blacks, it's pervasive in our society. We all live in a state of resignation.
 
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That's freakin awesome!

It goes further than education. And when we talk about education, I view this as a class issue and not so much as a race issue, but that's a whole other topic. It's a complete environment and the education system is just a cog in the wheel. Take a look at any ghetto. The origin of the word ghetto, comes from the slums of Poland where the Nazis kept Jews before they were taken to camps and killed. Do you know why the housing projects are called projects? Because somewhere at sometime, someone discovered that if you overcrowd rats in a cage, they'd eventually turn vicious and kill each other for a piece of cheese. Not too far off from what the poor people are doing in the ghetto, so I'd say so far that the project is working. As an added assurance, throw in a liquor store and gun store on every corner and make every billboard a booze ad. It doesn't paint the sunniest picture. Especially if your family has been there for generations. Now look at what that does to the family structure. The most basic: how are you going to provide for your family so you can all survive? Education takes a backseat to survival instinct which is in every human being. Survival may means sometimes doing some unsavory things and here come the prisons. We all know where that leads... Very calculated.

That's been my impression. My own childhood apparently was unusual in that, as young children, we learned to appreciate racial and ethnic differences (particularly in terms of the varieties of food we got to eat -- our block parties were legendary). That observed and experienced reality rendered nonsensical the notion that some people were somehow inferior by virtue of race. It was a notion that I rejected as just plain stupid when I was exposed to it in middle childhood.

It's always been an issue of class, in my opinion. Race is an invented issue.

-Rich
 
You have been given an equal opportunity in many ways, and in fact, in some cases, more than an equal opportunity. At what point can we say enough is enough? Slavery has been dead for how long?

I'm 55 years old. I remember as a young child seeing signs on bathrooms designating which were for whites and which were for blacks. Legal, institutionalized racism was not over in this country as long ago as you might think.
 
That would be a shame, it's very rare to have a rational debate on race where multiple points of view are represented. Even if we don't agree with someone's point of view, there is always something to be gained by understanding it.

Very good point. I just got ticked off when it was suggested that "we get you a ticket back to where they came from".
Having a civilized rational debate isn't possible if arrogant people have the balls to think they can send me back to Africa! The more I thought about that the more it ticked me off!
 
I'm thinking that if we were all one race, which we probably will be in five or so thousand years, should we survive, we would still be having issues anyway.

We seem to have a need to look down on anyone who is not a member of the club we are a member of. Even then, we look down on the newcomers of our oh so special and wonderful club. They get the dirty jobs don't they?

I doubt our racial issues will ever be solved to everyones satisfaction until all our blood is intermingled completely.

Then we will find other reasons to segregate ourselves from "them", or "those kind."

We gotta feel like we are the special ones, don't we?

-John
 
Very good point. I just got ticked off when it was suggested that "we get you a ticket back to where they came from".
Having a civilized rational debate isn't possible if arrogant people have the balls to think they can send me back to Africa! The more I thought about that the more it ticked me off!

There is an Internet phrase, "do not feed the trolls" that you may consider adopting. When you remember that 80% of humanity is stupid, it becomes easy to just ignore the stupidity and concern your thoughts on the arguments that are intelligent. Just accept the 'ticket home' comments and understand that these lines of thinking still exist.
 
It's obvious that blacks and whites will never see eye to eye on these issues. We live in two entirely different realities. I think I'll just stick to the non race, religion or political topics from now on.

That would be a shame, it's very rare to have a rational debate on race where multiple points of view are represented. Even if we don't agree with someone's point of view, there is always something to be gained by understanding it.

Henning is absolutely right on this. This IS the dialogue Obama said we have to have.

I dare say most whites have never had a black friend they knew long enough to hang with, visit their church or eat their mommas cooking. They are uncomfortable. They don't realize that there are many black families out there who share their conservative values. Most whites are self-segregated from blacks. The riots left them in fear of blacks and they move away to white enclaves. I'm serious, whites are terrified of black violence.

I live in a 2000 sq ft home with a 20 x 30 foot swimming pool, fire place and two car garage set in a nice community with a park and a lake. It was built in the 60's as one of the first "planned" developments with a clubhouse, park, and community swimming pool to share. It cost me half to a third of a comparable house two miles away. Why? My back yard is the border of Eatonville and about a third of my neighbors are black. I had been renting a home there for a few months so I knew it was a great neighborhood.

We absolutely have to have these talks, painful and embarrassing as they are, because there is truth on both sides. Blacks need to understand how whites see the landscape, too. Not all whites are racist but, they have legitimate concerns and fears.
 
When I went to work for Sperry Rail out of high school my first Chief Operator named Larry Moore, " black as the ace of spades". Great guy, we'd go out and party, most nights it's totally mellow, but some nights we'd be in some funky neighborhoods (we are in a different place most every night and worked the entire NE on that particular car) where one of us, if not both would be uncomfortable if not in danger. It was pretty interesting because the behaviors were identical regardless the race, just a negative image of each other. Funniest thing though was it was never the neighborhoods that were predicted to be bad by the railroaders were the neighborhoods where we had problems.
 
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I dare say most whites have never had a black friend they knew long enough to hang with, visit their church or eat their mommas cooking. They are uncomfortable. They don't realize that there are many black families out there who share their conservative values. Most whites are self-segregated from blacks. The riots left them in fear of blacks and they move away to white enclaves. I'm serious, whites are terrified of black violence.
They are so afraid of it they have to carry a gun everywhere they go. Reality is unless they are down in gangbanger land buying crack, the most likely person to inflict violence on them is their spouse or significant other. Violent crime in the US for the most part is as segregated as the rest of our society.
 
I'm 55 years old. I remember as a young child seeing signs on bathrooms designating which were for whites and which were for blacks. Legal, institutionalized racism was not over in this country as long ago as you might think.

And I've been alive long enough to know that in many situtations, if I was one of 2 identical (other than race) candidates for anything, I would not be chosen for anything over a black man. Funny how quickly equality swung through equality.
 
Henning is absolutely right on this. This IS the dialogue Obama said we have to have.

I dare say most whites have never had a black friend they knew long enough to hang with, visit their church or eat their mommas cooking. They are uncomfortable. They don't realize that there are many black families out there who share their conservative values. Most whites are self-segregated from blacks. The riots left them in fear of blacks and they move away to white enclaves. I'm serious, whites are terrified of black violence.

I live in a 2000 sq ft home with a 20 x 30 foot swimming pool, fire place and two car garage set in a nice community with a park and a lake. It was built in the 60's as one of the first "planned" developments with a clubhouse, park, and community swimming pool to share. It cost me half to a third of a comparable house two miles away. Why? My back yard is the border of Eatonville and about a third of my neighbors are black. I had been renting a home there for a few months so I knew it was a great neighborhood.

We absolutely have to have these talks, painful and embarrassing as they are, because there is truth on both sides. Blacks need to understand how whites see the landscape, too. Not all whites are racist but, they have legitimate concerns and fears.


Fear of violence? Which riots are you talking about? The Rodney King riots? Watts? They were brought on by white on black violence. If Trayvon Martin's murderer isn't brought to justice, we may see another one. People don't riot for no reason, they riot because things reach a boiling point. I'm just trying to make it understood why these things happen. As for fear, it's fed all over the place: education, news, you name it. For instance, why is it that Columbus still has a national holiday? He was a mass murdering BASTARD!! So in that aspect, I can't say I blame you for being afraid, but for going so long without stepping out of your fear.... We also have to look at history and in doing so, we see that no group is free of violence. Violence is violence, and I don't see how a black fist will smash your face any more effectively than a white one.
 
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And I've been alive long enough to know that in many situtations, if I was one of 2 identical (other than race) candidates for anything, I would not be chosen for anything over a black man. Funny how quickly equality swung through equality.
It's easy to scapegoat something else when you don't get a job, promotion, etc. It's harder to admit you weren't as good a candidate as someone else. Candidates are never "equal". You may have similar qualifications but there's the subjective opinion of the person doing the selecting. If race and gender were such an advantage I would be able to get any job I desired. That has not been the case.
 
Fear of violence? Which riots are you talking about? The Rodney King riots? Watts? They were brought on by white on black violence. If Trayvon Martin's murderer isn't brought to justice, we may see another one. People don't riot for no reason, they riot because things reach a boiling point. I'm just trying to make it understood why these things happen. People are violent. I don't see how a black fist will smash your face any more effectively than a white one.

No, they were brought on by LAPD ******* cop on idiot drunk violence. You don't have to be black to take a beating from the LAPD lol. It's just that whites won't defend their own from institutional abuse where blacks will.

The fear is not the riot fear, the fear is from the every day continuous bombardment of media hysteria over the few instances that do happen. Racism is carefully nurtured by the media. It is an easy fear and weakness to prey upon.
 
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No, they were brought on by LAPD ******* cop on idiot drunk violence. You don't have to be black to take a beating from the LAPD lol. It's just that whites won't defend their own from institutional abuse where blacks will.


This is a great discussion. :cool2:
 
The fear is not the riot fear, the fear is from the every day continuous bombardment of media hysteria over the few instances that do happen. Racism is carefully nurtured by the media. It is an easy fear and weakness to prey upon.
I just got done editing my post. You pretty much summed up what I added, however, the instances aren't all that few. There are more than are being reported. This happened in our country 25 years ago. http://www.democracynow.org/2010/5/13/25_years_ago_philadelphia_police_bombs
 
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This is a great discussion. :cool2:

Back even back before Gates was Chief, Parker institutionalized a policy of treating the citizens as the enemy to be herded and controlled to their neighbor hoods which people did then, as they still do today. That institutionalized line of thought is now taught by LAPD to police forces al over the world that come to LA for training.
 
we (cops) use the adjectives black and white to distinguish.
 
Very good point. I just got ticked off when it was suggested that "we get you a ticket back to where they came from".
Having a civilized rational debate isn't possible if arrogant people have the balls to think they can send me back to Africa! The more I thought about that the more it ticked me off!

I can imagine how offensive that must be... it's one of the supremely dismissive and ignorant ideas in the world of white racism. It's often offered as a constructive idea, too, beneficial to both parties... amazing. It's almost as bad an idea as establishing a black-only homeland within the US, as, sadly, some white and black "thinkers" have proposed.

And imagine my plight, if I were to "go back where I came from"... I'd have to be divided into three parts in order to return to the point where the immigrant generation of both parents' families were born. Maybe you would, too, now that I think about it. "Europe" doesn't really describe one place any more than "Africa" does... and during the era of diasporas, slave and immigrant, this was even more true. My mother's parents, for example (Irish Catholic and Ukranian Jew) , would never had met back in Europe, and if they had, they would have had even more trouble as a couple than they did in Boston in the first half of the last century. And my mother's mother and my father's mother grew up in two different parts of Ireland, with different heritages and even languages (one had Norman roots, the other Celtic). America has always been the place where none of these differences are supposed to have any power; where the union of such separate histories has th power to change the way all peoples view their neighbors, all over the world. I hate the term "melting pot" (makes me think of a gray homogenous sludge), but the diversity of our population has always contributed to our strength. The more diverse the better, if you ask me.

And thinking even further, I'd imagine your family goes back more generations in the USA than mine, even post-slavery... another blow against that "where you came from" BS. :rolleyes2:
 
Fear of violence? Which riots are you talking about?

This is an aggregate of fear since the 60's. Let's face it, our TV screens are not filled with scenes of whites rioting, whites burning down neighborhoods.

Black fashion culture has not helped. "Gansta" is BIG dude. Everybody seems to want to dress like a prison prostitute and drive a pimp car. Hoodies are the uniform of thieves and muggers. Are we to think that that embracing "thug life" as a fashion statement will create warm-fuzzy feelings?

How do you feel when you see a greasy white dude in hobnail boots, long hair tied with in a bandana, torn-greasy denim jacket with a winged-skull embroidered on the back, and a hunting knife on his belt dismounting a straight-pipe Harley? Do you feel like buying the dude a beer and swapping fishing stories? It still happens, just not as much as it used to. It has been awhile since white thuggery (motorcycle gangs of the 50' and 60's) spawned a national and world fashion hit. But, the message was the same: "Don't mess with me, I'll hurt you."

The Rodney King riots? Watts? They were brought on by white on black violence.

That is a reason, not an excuse.

There is lots of black on white violence going on too. Seen any white race-baiters on TV demanding justice or (implied) else? Here is what is truely appalling, the horrific levels of black on black violence going on. Nobody riots about that. Yet the numbers are staggering in comparison to racial violence.

If Trayvon Martin's murderer isn't brought to justice, we may see another one. People don't riot for no reason, they riot because things reach a boiling point.

As unfortunate as this incident is, are young black kids being slaughtered by stupid white or hispanic at such rates as to justify that? Seriously, provide some numeric data.

I'm just trying to make it understood why these things happen. People are violent. I don't see how a black fist will smash your face any more effectively than a white one.

And I'm trying to make you understand why whites are like, "When is this stupid rioting **** gonna end!!!" Whites are well aware of the wrongs that this country and others performed. They are also aware that they too worked and are working to end it. In most countries today institutional racism is illegal.

We will never end racism but we can reduce it though honesty and communication. Honesty means accepting white perceptions of racism against them are relevant to the discussion.
 
Lordy me, where to start?

So many stereotypes, so little time. Race, gender, culture, geography.

I grew up in Dallas, benefited from a diverse neighborhood - pretty much every "box" checked. Maybe this was because the 'hood was (at that time) dominated by Texas Instruments folks, don't know.

Spent summers in New York (Long Island), saw a lot more racial confusion there (this was in the mid to late 70s) than at home. Recall, also, reading coverage of race riots in Boston, Detroit, LA, discussing with diverse neighbors. Point being not that one place is better or worse than the other (although I never saw so polarized a place, as to race, as the LA area, where you could cross a street and feel as if you'd changed continents), but rather, to point out that there are many stereotypes and assumptions which simply don't work.

Which, on balance, sounds a lot like a definition of the problem, doesn't it?

The worst element I fear, for all of us and our collective future, is the institutionalization of diminished expectations, and the collateral industry of their perpetuation.

What I know to a moral certainty is that there is no enduring benefit to keeping any person down, to causing a person to achieve less than their personal abilities allow, and anyone who truly desires to do this is a sad and confused soul.
 
The majority of the instances though are not racially based, they are about drug distribution.



I'm not calling it racial. Even the woman who survived the bombing says the police never gave a damn about the PEOPLE who complain about their neighbors. The group was being attacked here. This is what happens when people speak up. Racism is the distraction. Not to say it doesn't exist because it obviously does, but it's the smoke.
 
There is lots of black on white violence going on too. Seen any white race-baiters on TV demanding justice or (implied) else? Here is what is truely appalling, the horrific levels of black on black violence going on. Nobody riots about that. Yet the numbers are staggering in comparison to racial violence.

That is because there is too much money for Law Enforcement in keeping up the "war on drugs". Put crack in the corner liquor store and 95% of black on black crime disappears along with 95% of the rest of violent crime in the US.
 
Blacks are blacks. Whites are whites. It's a color. I'm white. I haven't interviewed anyone regarding the following comment but I read somewhere that whites have a hard time talking about blacks especially with their kids. And I guess that just makes it more difficult to deal with the rest of the issues between the colors. Blacks (I've read) will easily refer to whites as white people and say that to their kids. The same cannot be said about white people referring to blacks. I decided to just tell my kids what color they are when they ask and say it's like hair and eyes. Not everyone has brown or blue (or whatever color) hair and eyes. The history of people will come later (if I get a chance to explain that to them).

we (cops) use the adjectives black and white to distinguish.
 
Blacks are blacks. Whites are whites. It's a color. I'm white. I haven't interviewed anyone regarding the following comment but I read somewhere that whites have a hard time talking about blacks especially with their kids. And I guess that just makes it more difficult to deal with the rest of the issues between the colors. Blacks (I've read) will easily refer to whites as white people and say that to their kids. The same cannot be said about white people referring to blacks. I decided to just tell my kids what color they are when they ask and say it's like hair and eyes. Not everyone has brown or blue (or whatever color) hair and eyes. The history of people will come later (if I get a chance to explain that to them).

That is exactly my plan with my child:

Skin color is like eye color. It means nothing at the end of the day.

What kills me, though, is that some people want it to mean something (and that's not just in the way you'd expect...). What sense would there be in having a "Blue Eyed Pride Group?" Not much, right?

Its as silly as having a group of people wearing hooded suits and congregating to send the green eyed folks back to Ireland.
 
That is exactly my plan with my child:

Skin color is like eye color. It means nothing at the end of the day.

What kills me, though, is that some people want it to mean something (and that's not just in the way you'd expect...). What sense would there be in having a "Blue Eyed Pride Group?" Not much, right?

Its as silly as having a group of people wearing hooded suits and congregating to send the green eyed folks back to Ireland.

Kind of how the California Shepard's Association wants to send all Scotsmen back to Scotland?
 
Fear of violence? Which riots are you talking about? The Rodney King riots? Watts? They were brought on by white on black violence. If Trayvon Martin's murderer isn't brought to justice, we may see another one. People don't riot for no reason, they riot because things reach a boiling point. I'm just trying to make it understood why these things happen. As for fear, it's fed all over the place: education, news, you name it. For instance, why is it that Columbus still has a national holiday? He was a mass murdering BASTARD!! So in that aspect, I can't say I blame you for being afraid, but for going so long without stepping out of your fear.... We also have to look at history and in doing so, we see that no group is free of violence. Violence is violence, and I don't see how a black fist will smash your face any more effectively than a white one.

:yeahthat:
 
This is an aggregate of fear since the 60's. Let's face it, our TV screens are not filled with scenes of whites rioting, whites burning down neighborhoods.

That's exactly what I said. Media feeds it. It's up to you to find out for yourself. I'm personally tired of going to different places and having the same discussion about Brooklyn to a bunch of people how have never been there and have an idiotic idea of what it's like, but if they want to live in fear of somewhere based on the ignorance fed to them, then that's on them. It's not helping solve the problem.





How do you feel when you see a greasy white dude in hobnail boots, long hair tied with in a bandana, torn-greasy denim jacket with a winged-skull embroidered on the back, and a hunting knife on his belt dismounting a straight-pipe Harley? Do you feel like buying the dude a beer and swapping fishing stories? It still happens, just not as much as it used to. It has been awhile since white thuggery (motorcycle gangs of the 50' and 60's) spawned a national and world fashion hit. But, the message was the same: "Don't mess with me, I'll hurt you."
Oh you mean the Hell's Angels? I used to live 3 blocks from their headquarters. If you leave them alone, they leave you alone. I have in fact had normal conversations with some of them.
 
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I just got done editing my post. You pretty much summed up what I added, however, the instances aren't all that few. There are more than are being reported. This happened in our country 25 years ago. http://www.democracynow.org/2010/5/13/25_years_ago_philadelphia_police_bombs

"Black Wallstreet" in 1921 comes to mind also! here's a small excerpt from wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwood,_Tulsa,_Oklahoma

Greenwood is a neighborhood in Tulsa, Oklahoma. As one of the most successful and wealthiest African American communities in the United States during the early 20th Century, it was popularly known as America's "Black Wall Street" until the Tulsa Race Riot of 1921. The riot was one of the most devastating race riots in history and it destroyed the once thriving Greenwood community.

It was suspected by many blacks that the entire thing was planned because many white men, women and children stood on the borders of the city and watched as blacks were shot, burned and lynched. In addition some of the black owned airplanes were stolen by the white mob and used to throw cocktail bombs & dynamite sticks from the sky.[12] Property damage totaled $1.5 million (1921).[12] Although the official death toll claimed that 26 blacks and 13 whites died during the fighting, most estimates are considerably higher. At the time of the riot, the American Red Cross estimated that over 300 persons were killed. The Red Cross also listed 8,624 persons in need of assistance, in excess of 1,000 homes and businesses destroyed, and the delivery of several stillborn infants.[7]
 
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I can imagine how offensive that must be... it's one of the supremely dismissive and ignorant ideas in the world of white racism. It's often offered as a constructive idea, too, beneficial to both parties... amazing. It's almost as bad an idea as establishing a black-only homeland within the US, as, sadly, some white and black "thinkers" have proposed.

And imagine my plight, if I were to "go back where I came from"... I'd have to be divided into three parts in order to return to the point where the immigrant generation of both parents' families were born. Maybe you would, too, now that I think about it. "Europe" doesn't really describe one place any more than "Africa" does... and during the era of diasporas, slave and immigrant, this was even more true. My mother's parents, for example (Irish Catholic and Ukranian Jew) , would never had met back in Europe, and if they had, they would have had even more trouble as a couple than they did in Boston in the first half of the last century. And my mother's mother and my father's mother grew up in two different parts of Ireland, with different heritages and even languages (one had Norman roots, the other Celtic). America has always been the place where none of these differences are supposed to have any power; where the union of such separate histories has th power to change the way all peoples view their neighbors, all over the world. I hate the term "melting pot" (makes me think of a gray homogenous sludge), but the diversity of our population has always contributed to our strength. The more diverse the better, if you ask me.

And thinking even further, I'd imagine your family goes back more generations in the USA than mine, even post-slavery... another blow against that "where you came from" BS. :rolleyes2:

My wife is half black(father) and half sicilian(mother), I guess we'd have to get her two tickets. Cut off her head and ship it back to Sicily & send the rest of her body back to Africa
 
Oh you mean the Hell's Angels? I used to live 3 blocks from their headquarters. If you leave them alone, they leave you alone. I have in fact had normal conversations with some of them.

Sure, do the same in a Crip or Blood neighborhood as well. However if you happen to be neighbors when the Mongols roll up and blow up the HA clubhouse or meth lab, you still get blown up too, just like when rival black drug gangs roll through and do a drive by.

Again, neither situation has a lick to do with race, it's all business.
 
Black fashion culture has not helped. "Gansta" is BIG dude. Everybody seems to want to dress like a prison prostitute and drive a pimp car. Hoodies are the uniform of thieves and muggers. Are we to think that that embracing "thug life" as a fashion statement will create warm-fuzzy feelings?

See my above post.


That is a reason, not an excuse.
I never said it excuses anything. I'm just saying that when you see a bunch of people burning down neighborhoods, you have to ask yourself why. It's an extreme act and is brought on by other extremes.


We will never end racism but we can reduce it though honesty and communication. Honesty means accepting white perceptions of racism against them are relevant to the discussion.

I didn't mean to put down your views on the black race or reject them. If that's how you see it then that's how you see it. I was just giving another perspective ;) and I appreciate your honesty. This is how progress in made. It is up to you to expose yourself to reality and put the media BS aside. When you do you realize were all guilty of greed, violence, but we can all also be civil. Next time you see a picture of an angry looking black thug, ask yourself has this man never smiled or laughed at something? Maybe that'll take the edge off as long as you don't start believing that he smiled the last time he saw a dead white man. Fear is a block and fear is what were fed. We do need honesty an communication. It's the only way the fear will be broken down.
 
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It's up to you to expose yourself to the reality. Fear is a block and fear is what were fed. We do need honesty an communication. It's the only way the fear will be broken down.

We're frigging brainwashed by being told something over and over until we believe it. I think people, or organizations like government, want you to be afraid of anyone that's not the same as you are superficially so they can control you.

In college, the psychology department used computers to prove points and study behavior. They took 200 or 300 people from all over campus that had no clue who anyone else in the sample group was and asked what they liked and didn't like and stereotypes and the sort. Then they all talked to each other via email and active messages for a month. It was funny when the results came out. Quite often the most racist or stereotyped mindsets tended to befriend the people they thought they hated the most or were the most terrified of. All they knew about the other people was character and conversations about whatever as long as it didn't cross the experiment's boundaries of cultural indications. There was a big come-see-the-results get together one evening. A lot of people had to rethink their preconceived ideas after that. (My professor said after a couple days of deep thought and being a bit withdrawn in class, one of the admitted swastika toting arian types from his other class said fook-it, tossed his flag and attitude, and was seen hanging out with the black guys regularly after that because he liked who the individuals were)

Webboards like this one are essentially the same cultural experiment. What does anyone here look like? Do we really care? You like airplanes and are polite which is good enough because everything else is fluff.
 
Fear is a block and fear is what were fed. We do need honesty an communication. It's the only way the fear will be broken down.

There in lies the greatest barrier to peace, it has nothing to do with race, it's about language. Even in English there are semantic differences from which confusion has amounted to great violence. It's also a tool of oppression of those who are too lazy to learn to communicate. It allows the to be lied to about "the enemy" of whatever your issue is. We add to this problem every day.
 
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