Dangerous improper CFI Behavior

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Cptwing

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Cptwing
Is there a way to report dangerous improper CFI behavior. Mine frequently plays on his cell phone during Dual instruction. I also feel that him taking personal phone calls while I am sitting out buy the plane waiting, as much as twenty minutes or so and charging the time to my lesson is at best immoral, at likely at least from a civil standpoint illegal. A recent incident that I felt was a safety violation was having me do touch and go's in 20 Knot crosswinds, the plane is certified for 17. There are many other incidents that I could cite but I will refrain for now. Maybe I am all wet here and certainly realize that any actions I take will most likely fall back on me, and I may be looking for another school as well as another instructor.
 
Mike Smith said:
Two things. 1) Why would you pay for that, I wouldn’t. 2) Why would you go back for another lesson? Stop worrying about reporting anyone and go find another place to learn.
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Yes that is easy to say but having already soloed with over 4k invested going to another school is going to cost me a lot. I currently fly P-28, every other school around here use C-152 and C-172, so I would have to go backwards quite a bit. As I said in original post there are many other incidents, one which almost resulted in a mid air collision, with in less that 100'. This guy is unsafe and a milkman.

jordane93 said:
Have you talked to your CFI about your expectations?
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Yes I have, (though in no way should I have had to) and as far as the cellphone I just got that deer in the headlight look, I tried to contact the school owner, and was told he would get back to me in a week or so?

There must be an official way to report things, through the FSDO? The FAA? I actually have GO Pro video of me doing touch and gos while he is texting on his phone. I will not post this for legal reasons.
 
Mike Smith said:
The transition from PA28 to a high wing should be about an hour. If the guy is wasting that much of your time it should pay for itself fast. Just move on, really.
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I was told by one school that the transition would be more like 5 hours, but I may have little choice. But I feel obligated for safety, morality and yes a little vengeance to do something, at least maybe I can prevent another potential student from enduring this. More importantly prevent someone from getting hurt.

So to my original question; Is there an official process for reporting this?
 
You can certainly report an instructor to the FSDO. Whether his behavior rises to the level where you OUGHT to, only you can decide.

On my second lesson, I was doing my first couple of stalls and failed to center the ball. My instructor grabbed the controls and said "here's what happens if you don't center the ball" and did an unexpectedand unbriefed spin. It startled me to say the least. I voted with my wallet and found another instructor (at the same club). A few months later the first instructor and another student did not return from a lesson. They were never found. Among the instructors it was known that this guy would go out over the Atlantic at night and do spins. Can't necessarily say that was the case this time, but ...

Follow your own moral compass. If it's not the same as others', so what?
 
Cptwing said:
I was told by one school that the transition would be more like 5 hours, but I may have little choice. But I feel obligated for safety, morality and yes a little vengeance to do something, at least maybe I can prevent another potential student from enduring this. More importantly prevent someone from getting hurt.

So to my original question; Is there an official process for reporting this?
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5 hours to go from a Cherokee to a 172? That's ridiculous. One preflight explains the differences on the outside. The difference in procedures and flight characteristics you can learn when you're continuing training.
 
Cptwing said:
A recent incident that I felt was a safety violation was having me do touch and go's in 20 Knot crosswinds, the plane is certified for 17.
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First, no airplane is "certified" for a certain crosswind. They have a max demonstrated crosswind, but that's it. It is not a limitation. It just happens to be what they tested to. So, if you're successfully doing touch and goes with 20 knots of crosswind, you're doing pretty good. Perhaps a chat with your CFI about the other stuff may be in order, but it seems to me that he's getting the job done with the crosswind instruction.
 
If safety is an issue, a little extra expense doesn't matter. Vote with your feet. If and when the manager gets back to you, tell him why you left.

As Andy said, the crosswind thing really isn't an issue, but obviously your instructor isn't making things like that understood. There seems to be a communication problem with this instructor that's not doing you any good, either.
 
Anymouse said:
First, no airplane is "certified" for a certain crosswind. They have a max demonstrated crosswind, but that's it. It is not a limitation. It just happens to be what they tested to. So, if you're successfully doing touch and goes with 20 knots of crosswind, you're doing pretty good. Perhaps a chat with your CFI about the other stuff may be in order, but it seems to me that he's getting the job done with the crosswind instruction.
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My mistake you are correct "Demonstrated" to me seems like semantics but I was incorrect.
 
It's your money, and if you continue with this clown you're only going to waste more than if you switch to another school and instructor.
Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and do what's best for you in the long run. He will continue to screw you because he's addicted to his phone, among other bad habits.
Switch schools, and tell the owner why you're doing that, and leave.

Oh, and one tiny little thing, if you're currently training in a Cherokee, the correct designation is PA-28 dash something depending on the model.
 
PA-28-140 the - something usually refers to the HP
 
Isn’t this the second thread you’ve started whining about this CFI? Man, talk to him and tell him your complaints and expectations. We call that shet or get off the pot! If you’re unsatisfied change, whether it be CFI or flight school.

I suspect there’s another side to this story, always is from my experience.
 
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He continues to do these things because he knows he can get away with it. Man up and tell him how you feel.
 
You mentioned changing CFIs would cost a lot.

You may need to seriously reconsider your priorities, especially if you’re going to be a pilot. What does your safety cost? Will you put a price on it? And make PIC decisions in the future based on cost? This is a good learning opportunity and time to decide what’s more important (or important enough).

You may need to make maintenance decisions in the future or diversion decisions in the future or how much fuel to take on in the future or which plane to rent or which avionics to buy or how long to let an oil change slide. These can all be $ vs safety based choices.
 
Cptwing said:
I was told by one school that the transition would be more like 5 hours, but I may have little choice. But I feel obligated for safety, morality and yes a little vengeance to do something, at least maybe I can prevent another potential student from enduring this. More importantly prevent someone from getting hurt.

So to my original question; Is there an official process for reporting this?
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If you are asking if this is an FAA matter, No, it isn’t.

This is a consumer matter. You are the customer and the employee is taking advantage of you. Like having to deal with any other problem employee in business, you can take your issues to the employee then management and if that doesn’t work, you vote with your feet.

Switching airplanes during flight training might cost you a couple extra hours, but it might be worth it.
 
CFI would dave to have a damn good reason to be on his phone if he were instructing me. Without one it would be my last lesson. There are lots of CFIs out there.
 
This is second thread about the phone, I would leave. Going to a 172 should be a cinch, get in the POH and read up on the emergency procedures and performance. Sit in the cockpit outside of a lesson and "chair fly" the emergencies, take off, and approach. The locations of certain instruments will be a little bit different, but not 5 hours worth. I think the 172 is easier due to panel layout. Other than that just remember you have to stay lower to remain in ground effect during a soft field takeoff.

The cross wind is a non-issue. The wind listed in the POH is just what the highest that the plane was actually demonstrated in, not what it can handle. People exceed this all the time as long as they don't exceed their personal limits or ability.
 
Going to set up an appointment with another school, C-172.

mscard88 said:
Isn’t this the second thread you’ve started whining about this CFI? Man, talk to him and tell him your complaints and expectations. We call that shet or get off the pot! If you’re unsatisfied change, whether it be CFI or flight school. I suspect there’s another side to this story, always is from my experience.
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How quickly they come out of the shadows on this forum, I hardly think I am whining. I just wanted to know if their was an official reporting system, that's all. It seems hard to believe that their is not and the FAA would not find it disturbing at the least that a CFI, technically the PIC on a dual training flight would play on his phone during touch and gos with a student flying the plane. Really you think that is whining? Its a safety issue and a big one.
 
Well

1
if you were that concerned you wouldn’t keep flying with him, let alone for $4,000 worth of training.

2
Max demo crosswinds are not a legal limitation.

Depending on skill I’ve had students up beyond max demo, I mean what happens if you do end up earning your PPL and the winds kick up to behind max demo? Spoiler, you can’t just park the airplane in the sky and wait the winds out.

If you’re serious, I fully support you doing this, infact I encourage it
https://www.judgejudy.com/submit_your_case
 
I'm gonna be the contrarian here, but taking a look at your phone once in a while is not a safety issue. MY student was doing pattern work. Was flying everything absolutely perfect except until he got over the numbers. My friend lives under the traffic pattern and often asks if I'm up flying. So on one of the trips around the pattern, when I really have nothing to do because we're only working on the last 10' of altitude anyway, I shoot my buddy a text and say "hey that's us flying over right now."

If you've got a student that you don't have to babysit because he's flying just fine and it's one of the mundane parts of the lesson (between checkpoints on a XC and he's holding altitude and heading, trip number 32 around the pattern and he's killing it except the flare, etc...) a phone check isn't necessarily out of line or a safety issue. This is also your side of the story, and most likely skewed.

On the phone while you are paying and waiting however, don't pay for that portion and back charge him for YOUR time.
 
Anymouse said:
First, no airplane is "certified" for a certain crosswind. They have a max demonstrated crosswind, but that's it. It is not a limitation..
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Actually, the 20 knot number for the Honda Jet is a Limitation, but I digress.

If you’ve talked to the CFI and nothing has changed, tell the school you want a new instructor. If that doesn’t work, walk. Even though the transition seems like a big hit, you’ll probably save money in the long run, and more importantly, receive better training.

(I’m not your CFI, am I?). :)
 
So my goal is a bored CFI when I take lessons, it means I'm doing well, if he is busy with me then I need to do more work, that's how I look at it. Honestly, it takes time to sometimes to get from one scenario to another when training and if my CFI needs to check his messages or text his wife I'm ok with it, as long as he is there to save my bacon or correct me when I screw up. I'm training for my IR now and he is pretty laid back while I'm doing a hold unlike when I started doing them. Approaches, he is right there with me, honestly I can't wait until he is laid back and yawning while I'm working, that means I've got it down.
 
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Cptwing said:
How quickly they come out of the shadows on this forum, I hardly think I am whining.
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Shadows? Me? Ha, you haven't been on POA very long have you. Well good, you're gonna switch. Now we'll wait and see if you complain about something at the new flight school. :rolleyes:

Sorry, but I've dealt with many student personalities, as well as controller trainees personalities, and your comments make me skeptical. We'll see.
 
Had a long reply typed up.....better to leave it alone. Good luck op. I hope you find the right place for you.
 
Transition from a Cherokee to a 172 during training -- I've done that. Two hours, tops. You'll need to learn to use the rudder pedals, and you'll learn what a stall REALLY looks like. And you'll be able to forget the boost pump. Oh, and a little less float. Cherokees will tolerate some bad habits with little or no penalty. The 172 will make you a better pilot.

If you don't like the way your CFI is treating you, then get a new instructor or go somewhere else. Yes, you CAN report this one to the FSDO, but it's like calling 911 because someone let their dog poop on your lawn or you got a door ding in a parking lot. Your first stop should be the flight school's chief instructor for a chat about what you're being billed for. If that doesn't fix the problem, get a new instructor or switch schools. The pain is not that great and will only last a week or two.

Fish or cut bait, pal.
 
Cptwing said:
PA-28-140 the - something usually refers to the HP
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No kidding... I left it blank because I didn't know what exact model you were flying.
I've got a lot of time in almost all of the PA-28 Cherokee models.
 
Sounds like you have some hard feelings toward this instructor. Level with him. He may provide a reasonable explanation. If you don’t trust him find a new instructor. Not that big a deal the move from Piper to Cessna. Airplane isn’t near as important as the instructor and, more importantly, the relationship you share with him/her. Good luck!
 
First - acknowledge that you, as a student, don't know nearly as much as your instructor. If he is comfortable looking at his phone while you fly the plane somewhere, then take that as a compliment. You're not doing anything wrong. But if it bugs you, then tell him that you'd prefer if he didn't use his phone during lessons.

Second, the max demonstrated crosswinds for a PA-28-161 is 17 kts...is it the same in a 140? I'd think it's lower because a lower hp engine means less ability to overcome crosswinds.
 
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