Dale Snodgrass crash in Idaho

[Tools]

Which is kinda my point. Military planes. Airline transport category planes… of course it can happen. Just MUCH more rare than rare.

I’ve noticed pack trip problems in a jets history that caused enough concern not to take it for some REALLY esoteric reasons in this context. That’s MY experience.

Not being argumentative. A control check is a nobrainer, but you can’t stop there. Gonna scream from the mountaintops control checks are important? Think that’ll fix the problem?

Or perhaps the notion that an unfamiliar airplane is likely gonna cause you to forgot some OTHER equally vital basic… I think that’s a more productive take away.

Even if that isn’t the cause here, it’s a more comprehensive lesson to preach than “stick to the basics”.

I generally don’t get into what I think someone knew or didn’t… but I’ll make an exception… I think he knew control checks are important. There’s a reason he didn’t do one. THAT is the root cause, and the lesson to learn.

If you can’t wrap you’re head around the notion that you too are prone to this, I see an area of concern.

 

[Lindberg]

Here's some information from page 11 of the NTSB Final Report which indicates that, while difficult, the control lock could be removed under flight conditions:

"Page 11 of 12 WPR21FA283

Another 1019 series airplane owner relayed his experience with the flight control lock. He
stated that, on one occasion, he had planned a local flight with a passenger in the back seat and
became distracted and forgot to remove the flight control lock before flight. He was able to taxi
for departure, still unaware that the lock was in place, and became distracted during the pre-
takeoff checks because he was talking to the passenger. He stated that he was able to complete
the initial stages of takeoff with the control lock engaged, and once he realized, he had to
struggle to remove the lock due to the forces on the control stick during takeoff. After a few
seconds he was able to free it, and the flight progressed uneventfully."

I think we've all experienced "Moments Of Panic" that have induced physical capabilities well beyond our usual so my guess/conjecture is that the control lock could have been removed, but that there was just not enough time to do it.

This still makes no sense to me. A tail wheel aircraft with a stick is not like a nose wheel aircraft where you taxi around with your feet while setting the radios and putting on your makeup. I can't even get in a Cub or L19, let alone start it, without moving the stick. The idea of starting up, taxing out to the runway, and advancing the throttle without knowing that the stick was locked in place, and noticing until you're off the ground, is unfathomable to me.

 

[Ed Haywood]

This still makes no sense to me. A tail wheel aircraft with a stick is not like a nose wheel aircraft where you taxi around with your feet while setting the radios and putting on your makeup. I can't even get in a Cub or L19, let alone start it, without moving the stick. The idea of starting up, taxing out to the runway, and advancing the throttle without knowing that the stick was locked in place, and noticing until you're off the ground, is unfathomable to me.

That's why I think he deliberately left the lock engaged with the intent of releasing it during runup, which he skipped because he got rushed.

 

[Lindberg]

That's why I think he deliberately left the lock engaged with the intent of releasing it during runup, which he skipped because he got rushed.

That could be. Or he engaged it to take his hand off the stick for a moment. But I don't know why you'd do that.

 

[Ed Haywood]

That could be. Or he engaged it to take his hand off the stick for a moment. But I don't know why you'd do that.

I sometimes wish I had a way to secure the stick back in my Decathlon. On a long taxi it would be nice to have 2 hands free to fumble with my tablet mount, etc. This accident reminds me what a bad idea that could be.

 

[midwestpa24]

I sometimes wish I had a way to secure the stick back in my Decathlon. On a long taxi it would be nice to have 2 hands free to fumble with my tablet mount, etc. This accident reminds me what a bad idea that could be.

That is a bad idea in itself. When the aircraft is moving, you should not be distracting yourself with fumbling with a tablet, etc. I've personally seen numerous incidents of aircraft leaving the taxiway, hitting lights, corners of buildings, etc., because the pilot was attempting to multi-task.

 

[Echo419]

This still makes no sense to me. A tail wheel aircraft with a stick is not like a nose wheel aircraft where you taxi around with your feet while setting the radios and putting on your makeup. I can't even get in a Cub or L19, let alone start it, without moving the stick. The idea of starting up, taxing out to the runway, and advancing the throttle without knowing that the stick was locked in place, and noticing until you're off the ground, is unfathomable to me.

And yet there are now two recorded incidents of this occurring for that aircraft. In one case the pilot got lucky and was able to disengage the control lock.

 

[Capngrog]

Here's a link to a video appearing on today's "AVweb flash", wherein Paul Bertorelli discusses Dale Snodgrass' crash with NTSB Vice Chairman Bruce Landsberg:

I hope the link works, because I sometimes screw up the forwarding part.

 

[Daleandee]

Here's a link to a video appearing on today's "AVweb flash", wherein Paul Bertorelli discusses Dale Snodgrass' crash with NTSB Vice Chairman Bruce Landsberg.

This is a conversation worth listening to.

As the builder/owner/pilot of an experimental aircraft many of the procedures and devices used have to be developed by the builder or taken from other builders with very similar aircraft. For instance, my aircraft kit manufacturer does not give us a plan or design for a control lock so it's on me to design something that works well and will be easily seen so as to not be forgotten if I overlook it during preflight. My experimental aircraft engine has a unique set of operating parameters that I need to know, document, and follow for every flight.

These are only a couple of items as they pertain to experimental aircraft but in reality every pilot that gets into a different airplane (certified or experimental) has to learn the systems & procedures for that aircraft and be diligent about following them and confirming them on a checklist. The loss of this highly rated pilot should make us all sit up and say, "there but for the Grace of God go I!"

 

[Brad Smith]

The loss of this highly rated pilot should make us all sit up and say, "there but for the Grace of God go I!"

“there but for the ignoring of checklists go I!” FTFY

 

[Daleandee]

“there but for the ignoring of checklists go I!” FTFY

No Brad, you didn't fix anything. The point is clear that If such a highly trained and regimented pilot as Captain Snodgrass can miss an item that cost him his life you can too.

I stand by my statement.

 

[mark.staggs]

No Brad, you didn't fix anything. The point is clear that If such a highly trained and regimented pilot as Captain Snodgrass can miss an item that cost him his life you can too.

I stand by my statement.

Totally agree. This one for some reason bothers me because, like Paul Bertorelli mentioned in the video, I'm sure I've probably taken off w/o doing a control check at some point in my flying. I don't remember having done so, but I certainly have been distracted or rushed during start up or run up where I absent-mindedly forgot a step. Thankfully it didn't kill me, but it certainly could've in some models I've flown where external control locks are used.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Totally agree. This one for some reason bothers me because, like Paul Bertorelli mentioned in the video, I'm sure I've probably taken off w/o doing a control check at some point in my flying. I don't remember having done so, but I certainly have been distracted or rushed during start up or run up where I absent-mindedly forgot a step. Thankfully it didn't kill me, but it certainly could've in some models I've flown where external control locks are used.

Isn't that what checklist are used for? To verify what's been done?

 

[Tantalum]

I've wondered why planes don't have a control lock more akin to something like what you see on sailboats, which is a simple brake clamp.. Even if you 'forget it' you have a chance to unscrew it; maybe. For the control locks I've seen on GA they're hard enough to get out while the plane is stationary, I can't imagine any kind of meaningful control force on it. And as noted above, why I appreciate Pipers and their seatbelt method. It's low tech but nearly impossible to fumble.

This illustrates the mechanism. Unscrew it when you're not flying, screw it in on the ground. If you forget, at least you can unscrew it, or even over power it unless you really muscled into it clamp crank

 

[jpskies]

The NTSB result still puzzled my friend who is a Machetti owner (I took the pictures of the control lock and seat rail last year).

A. When the control lock is set, the stick is stationary like a rock. Although you can possibly taxi the airplane because the ruddle paddles can be moved a little bit, it is extremely awkward. My friend invited me sit in the cockpit and try it for myself. It's awkward. How can any pilot not feel weird when the control stick is not movable while taxi a tail dragger with limited pedal movement?

B. How about the pilot removed the control lock before taxi and set it during the run-up? It's also unlikely. When the lock is unset, it lyes on the floor. I don't think a pilot would bother to bend his back and try to pick up the lock for any temporary purpose.

C. The stick is totally stationary and not movable during take-off. It's very weird anyone not detecting that. The only possibility is that he was somehow used to treating the take-off as an F-14 catapult launch where the pilot's right hand is off the control stick.

Still cannot imagine what happened to him that morning.

Today I finally got a chance to take pictures of a friend's Machetti SM.1019 with the gust lock engaged and disengaged. I also take a picture of the seat rail. It's so short. I don't think any pilot would have missed removing the gust lock. Nor could the seat slide too far back. Could that be another lock or seatbelt entagled in the back seat? I heard this was the first flight after the plane was delivered. And you can see the stick position is almost unchanged when the gust lock is disengaged. I hope NTSB could find out the cause. RIP Snort!

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[Tools]

Hand is on the stick for a cat shot in an f-14.

Ya, just REALLY hard to say.

 

[kell490]

I have heard some say they memorize the checklist don't use the actual paper one is that common?

 

[flyingron]

I have heard some say they memorize the checklist don't use the actual paper one is that common?

Of course, that means you'll have to trust your memory.

Ross Russo used to tell the story about doing the preflight walkaround when he was in the Air Force. First, they were dinged because they weren't using the checklist, so they started carrying the checklist around during the walk around. Then, they got dinged because it was clear they weren't using it because they weren't turning the pages. So, they learned where in the walk around they had to turn the page to make it appear they were using the checklist.

 

[Capngrog]

So many hot shot geniuses who thought they'd memorized or didn't need the checklist ... so many crashes.

 

[wanttaja]

My airplane has a single fuel tank...if the engine is still running by the time I reach the run-up pad, the fuel valve is on.

My engine doesn't have a mixture control.

My airplane doesn't have any trim systems.

The control lock is the seatbelt, and I can't comfortably sit on it.

My airplane doesn't have any windows...or doors, for that matter.

Fixed gear, fixed propeller, no flaps.

I fly VFR, mostly from the same uncontrolled field. I will have been listening to the CTAF all along, and any silence would register. If I forget to turn on the transponder or ADS-B, no big deal.

So I don't have a written checklist. Wiggle the stick and rudder to ensure they're clear and working (helps that I can see all the control surfaces), check mags and carb heat, and I'm ready to go.

 

[Fearless Tower]

So many hot shot geniuses who thought they'd memorized or didn't need the checklist ... so many crashes.

Lot of crashes by hot shot geniuses that thought they were good to go because they used checklists too.

I am not one to disparage checklist usage at all, but the real issue isn’t necessarily using or not using a checklist.

The issue we all need to take on board is how deadly distractions or abnormal situations can be.

Regardless of your preferred method, recognize that anyone of us is susceptible to being distracted with deadly consequences.

 

[35 AoA]

Hand is on the stick for a cat shot in an f-14.

Ya, just REALLY hard to say.

Yep, hand on the "towel rack" of the canopy bow was a Hornet invention. Most previous aircraft required direct aft stick input to affect rotation, even on a cat shot.

 

[Capngrog]

Regardless of your preferred method, recognize that anyone of us is susceptible to being distracted with deadly consequences.

A well-stated reason why checklists are needed.

 

[Brad W]

Yep, hand on the "towel rack" of the canopy bow was a Hornet invention. Most previous aircraft required direct aft stick input to affect rotation, even on a cat shot.

I just finished reading an A-4 pilot's memoir ("Dead Men Flying", it was a good read)
He wrote of resting his elbow in his gut and holding his hand behind the stick to catch it and prevent the stick from throwing back (and to avoid pulling it back) during the cat shot

 

[nauga]

I just finished reading an A-4 pilot's memoir ("Dead Men Flying", it was a good read)
He wrote of resting his elbow in his gut and holding his hand behind the stick to catch it and prevent the stick from throwing back (and to avoid pulling it back) during the cat shot

I know a few A-6 pilots who cupped their hands juts slightly aft of the grip and rested their arm on their thigh for similar reasons. Later airplanes got better-balanced controls specifically to eliminate, or at least reduce, this tendency. Older airplanes also had 'Cat Grips' in front of the throttles that you could grasp while still holding MIL/MAX power to keep your hand from moving back and reducing thrust off the cat.

Hands-off cat launches in the Hornet are to reduce the likelihood of pilot-induced oscillations off the cat. Holding the towel bar is just a way to make certain it happens.

Nauga,
and the non-minimum phase meat servo loop

 

[Tools]

So there I was…

Sitting on the cat, minutes after my first trap… tiller bar into place. A little throttle here, a little brake there… gettin kinda nervous.

Guys are scurrying around everywhere, I’m stressing not messing up the pattern, the next trap, etc…

D’OH! THE SIGNAL! Here it is, firewall it, feet off the brakes, control wipe out, look at gages, can’t make sense of ANY of them, assume they’re good, find a guy in a white coat STARING at me, must be the guy, snappy sharp salute, head on head rest, WOO HOO!!!

O H T H I T !!!! Not holding the cat grip. Time S T O P S. Dead in its tracks. What do I do? Let go of the throttles and grab it, hope to get back before the shot?

Call for a suspend ON MY FIRST cat shot? Back to basics… better die than look bad, quickly discarded as viable.

Risk it without them. Arg!!! What to do?

Guess I’m going for it. I’m STARING at the throttle quadrant oblivious to the world. Hand almost to the cat grip. Got it. Swinging it up. Check. Clutch in the throttles. YA BABY!! Made it! BAAAAAMMMMM! Whooosh…

Head slams back crooked, can’t move it, pretty much looking at a canopy bow. Uh, so much for checking end speed, I’ll get what I get and like it.

Hit the end, airborn, didn’t die, jet just starts flying like a sim taken off freeze. WOO HOO! E ticket ride!

 

[35 AoA]

So there I was…

Sitting on the cat, minutes after my first trap…

It's truly amazing that, throughout generations of idiots in orange/whites, more of us don't die right here. I think a nuclear detonation could have occurred nearby and I wouldn't have noticed. Was so focused on the procedure, the shooter, etc. I was probably a first tour JO before I even had awareness of such things as the TPO and all the other things occurring in plain view

 

[Tools]

Oh ya… looking through a straw doesn’t even come close!

So there my bud was….

Senso in a S3, first one out in a ejection…. Apparently not only did he do ALL his IROP procedures perfectly, he even started the rescue coordination on his PRC-90 while still under the chute!! Unreal.

First thing he remembered after hearing the word EJECT was the guy unhooking him from the helo hoist cable!

 

[Jim K]

Oh ya… looking through a straw doesn’t even come close!

So there my bud was….

Senso in a S3, first one out in a ejection…. Apparently not only did he do ALL his IROP procedures perfectly, he even started the rescue coordination on his PRC-90 while still under the chute!! Unreal.

First thing he remembered after hearing the word EJECT was the guy unhooking him from the helo hoist cable!

That says a lot for the training.

 

[luvflyin]

So there I was…

Sitting on the cat, minutes after my first trap… tiller bar into place. A little throttle here, a little brake there… gettin kinda nervous.

Guys are scurrying around everywhere, I’m stressing not messing up the pattern, the next trap, etc…

D’OH! THE SIGNAL! Here it is, firewall it, feet off the brakes, control wipe out, look at gages, can’t make sense of ANY of them, assume they’re good, find a guy in a white coat STARING at me, must be the guy, snappy sharp salute, head on head rest, WOO HOO!!!

O H T H I T !!!! Not holding the cat grip. Time S T O P S. Dead in its tracks. What do I do? Let go of the throttles and grab it, hope to get back before the shot?

Call for a suspend ON MY FIRST cat shot? Back to basics… better die than look bad, quickly discarded as viable.

Risk it without them. Arg!!! What to do?

Guess I’m going for it. I’m STARING at the throttle quadrant oblivious to the world. Hand almost to the cat grip. Got it. Swinging it up. Check. Clutch in the throttles. YA BABY!! Made it! BAAAAAMMMMM! Whooosh…

Head slams back crooked, can’t move it, pretty much looking at a canopy bow. Uh, so much for checking end speed, I’ll get what I get and like it.

Hit the end, airborn, didn’t die, jet just starts flying like a sim taken off freeze. WOO HOO! E ticket ride!

Damn dude. Did ya get all sweaty writing that? I’m impressed, not one typo.

 

[Tools]

Nah, but I was then! It was between Key Weird and Cuba! Summertime, bubble canopy…

So there I was… about half done. SWEATY and hot. I got water and Gatorade stashed in my gsuit, nav bag, flight suit, survival vest… everywhere.

Got chalked and chained due to bad wx on the beach, our divert. Good chance to take a little break.

Thought I’d break out the little 4 oz survival vest water. Who can learn to land on a carrier when they gotta pee? Sluuurrrrrp… hmm, that didn’t help mutch, mouth a thittle dry thill…

Break out the little military flask, then the other one, and the quart each in my speed jeans, and nav bag… D’oh?!!!! What have I done! I just drank a metric GALLON. No way I’m escaping this without having to pee… EGAD!

looked down at the deck, my plane capt was wide eyed like “what the…..?!!!!” Where did he get all that?!

Resigned myself to just wetting myself when the time came.

Moot. Sweated it ALL out. Never did pee.