Dale Jr. Crash

Doug Reid said:
The aviation side of Nascar has been in decline for a while now. A friend of mine flies for Childress...they only have one plane now. The crew goes on a special charter flight or airlines...only the owners ride in a private jet these days.
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One of the neighbors flies or flew (not sure which now) for Furniture Row. Not sure how their changes affect him.

Two other neighbors fly for fractionals that they either don’t talk about or it just hasn’t come up while we talk about their livestock and life and the neighborhood. They’re both getting their butts flown off lately.
 
kayoh190 said:
Same wing as the Sovereign as I understand it. Reminds me of what Cessna did with the Excel - took the tail and wing off the V and attached them to a different tube.

I never flew the Sovereign, but we had one on the certificate. Impressive short field performance. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’d think 5000’ should be pretty trivial with that wing.
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Yes, you are correct. Very impressive short field capability, but in a crosswind you REALLY had to be on your game. The most difficult airplane in a crosswind I have ever flown, not even close.
More the initial rollout than the touchdown.
 
Kelvin said:
There are Saabs that run back and forth all day from JQF on in/out days...These planes carry up to 40 or 50 people...there might be no need to own aircraft...
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Those were owned by HMS, they now have two E145’s. The only teams with dedicated crew transport aircraft now are HMS, JGR and SHR. Everyone else has outsourced their flying. There are less drivers with personal aircraft these days too. Just another sign of an overall decline in revenue in the sport.
 
Doug Reid said:
The aviation side of Nascar has been in decline for a while now. A friend of mine flies for Childress...they only have one plane now. The crew goes on a special charter flight or airlines...only the owners ride in a private jet these days.
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The Childress helicopter doesn't drop in on us these days now that our neighbor (Kasey Khane) isn't driving. Still know a couple of the pilots. They dropped in on our Memorial day party while they were cooling their heels during the Coca Cola 600 (they had to park the helicopter somewhere while the race was on).
 
denverpilot said:
One of the neighbors flies or flew (not sure which now) for Furniture Row. Not sure how their changes affect him.

Two other neighbors fly for fractionals that they either don’t talk about or it just hasn’t come up while we talk about their livestock and life and the neighborhood. They’re both getting their butts flown off lately.
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Furniture Row closed up shop.
 
Kurt Zierhut said:
I also just talked to a pilot friend who happened to call Dale Jr Enterprises last month looking for a job. They were rude and said they had all the pilots they need.
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To be fair, they probably get that call several times a month and they probably have way more pressing things to do than to chat on the phone with yet another unemployed pilot they're not going to hire.
 
Doug Reid said:
The aviation side of Nascar has been in decline for a while now. A friend of mine flies for Childress...they only have one plane now. The crew goes on a special charter flight or airlines...only the owners ride in a private jet these days.
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Yeah. KVJI which is quite close to Bristol used to get a lot of interesting transients for race weekend...not so much of late.
 
EppyGA said:
Furniture Row closed up shop.
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I know. As a race team. Not as a company. That’s why I said I don’t know his flying status. I should check on him. But I’m sure with his qualifications in this pilot hiring market he bounced to a new gig (no pun intended) just fine. He was dual fixed wing and rotor rated and one of those folks who wouldn’t feel normal not flying something.
 
There are a few Part 125 operators that fly the NASCAR teams around. The largest, Victory Air, is based at SVH and I believe they have 10 EMB 145s.
 
Barry said:
Really sorry to see this but glad no one was hurt. Btw KTRI is actually closer to Bristol speedway than 0A9, and has 8000 ft runway. Maybe there are less nascar fans at 0A9 to deal with, or traffic, not sure why they chose that airport. 5000ft should have been enough normally, except when it isn’t.
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Might also have had something to do with where they were planning to stay in the area. While KTRI may have been closer to the speedway, O9A may have been closer to their house or hotel (or whatever) where they were planning to stay.
 
Kurt Zierhut said:
I also just talked to a pilot friend who happened to call Dale Jr Enterprises last month looking for a job. They were rude and said they had all the pilots they need.
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You would be surprised how many times a week race teams get that call. I was just a small time racer, very underfunded and everytime I went out people would ask me for a job. During a race people would ask for a job. After the race people would ask for a job. At night when I am in bed asleep people would call and ask for a job. I would get up in the morning and people would be waiting outside my shop to ask for a job. I would be in the bathroom and people would try to come into the stall to ask me for a job.

I knew the right people to ask for a job and I asked for myself. I received the same answer as I always gave, full up. When I did get a job with a NASCAR team, it was because I was in the right place at the right time and I knew what I was doing.

I tried not to be rude but sometimes it just came out that way.
 
Kurt Zierhut said:
I just got back from the Bristol race. About once a year we look at Elizabethton (0A9) but decide it is too short. I also just talked to a pilot friend who happened to call Dale Jr Enterprises last month looking for a job. They were rude and said they had all the pilots they need.
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I doubt JR Motorsports was the only outfit that replied in a less than gracious manner. Your friend is going to have a hard time finding a gig by cold calling big name established flight departments. A few thousand other pilots have already tried that.
 
kyleb said:
I'll have an eyewitness account in a week or so. One of the people who saw the accident and pulled them from the wreckage is a pilot and the BIL of a co-worker...
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No one "pulled them from the wreckage". All of the occupants exited the plane under their own power.
 
3393RP said:
No one "pulled them from the wreckage". All of the occupants exited the plane under their own power.
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Next, you're gonna say the airplane didn't make the crashing airplane/Stuka siren sound as it went down.
 
Zeldman said:
When I did get a job with a NASCAR team, it was because I was in the right place at the right time and I knew what I was doing.
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I'm sure you worked under the same declaration of competence I did.

When I was interviewed for a mechanic position on IndyCar teams, I made it clear I understood my responsibility to the driver of the car. The crew chief wants to hear you say it. The driver is turning laps at 225 MPH, and the work I did had to be without error or flaws. Same thing when I crewed on an AA/FS at Bonneville that was running on a FIA record of 414 MPH.

It's serious stuff. You have to do the work correctly, every time.
 
Never worked for a team, but I was a NASCAR official for over a decade at the now-defunct Old Dominion Speedway. I was standing in the stands as a spectator when I heard them mentioning they needed an additional person and promptly volunteered.
 
flyingron said:
Never worked for a team, but I was a NASCAR official for over a decade at the now-defunct Old Dominion Speedway. I was standing in the stands as a spectator when I heard them mentioning they needed an additional person and promptly volunteered.
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So you guys are saying officials are a dime a dozen but good mechanics are hard to come by? :) :) :)

Hahaha. Sorry Ron! :) :) :)
 
flyingron said:
Never worked for a team, but I was a NASCAR official for over a decade at the now-defunct Old Dominion Speedway. I was standing in the stands as a spectator when I heard them mentioning they needed an additional person and promptly volunteered.
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That seems to be one major part of getting hired, being in the right place at the right time.
 
The full NTSB docket was released a few days ago. By training and experience, I'm probably not qualified to criticize, but the entire flight from pulling the aircraft out of the hangar to the flaming stop on the edge of a highway sounded like an unprofessional cockup to me.

The pilots stated they sorta used a challenge checklist, but not really. Sometimes it wasn't verbalized at all.

The flight was VFR (yeah, I know it was a <20 minute flight). They didn't use a single navigation aid. They dodged clouds, and didn't know which ridgeline the airport lay beyond. There was no approach briefing. They made a casual "we'll start descending and turning towards the runway about now" approach over the wrong ridgeline, so they had to interrupt the descent, climb, and then descend once the next ridgeline was crossed.

The FDR traces showed N1s were all over the place as they descended. Their calculated VREF was 112 kts, and touchdown speed was 97.

The PM noted the excessive speed on descent. The PF offered to go around, but the PM said something like "Nahh, you're good". The aircraft touched down hard at 131 kts. Then it bounced.

The PF attempted to deploy the reversers, but that required WOW for the mains and nosegear. The plane bounced again. The pilots said they attempted a go around, but claimed the engines didn't respond. That's because a thrust reverser lock logic fault kept the engines at idle. It bounced a third time, and the right wing struck the runway. There was 1,000' of runway remaining.

When the plane hit the runway the last time, they kept it down and deployed the reversers and speedbrakes. It was traveling about 80 kts when it overran the runway, traversed a few hundred yards of grass, then hit a creek bed and went through the perimeter fence.

The emergency exit wouldn't open. I noticed the AFM indicated a locking pin was supposed to be removed before flight to enable the activation of the exit egress handle, but the report didn't mention if this was the cause of the issue. The pilot managed to open the main cabin door just enough to allow the crew and passengers to escape. It was a close run thing.

The written statements by both pilots revealed their lack of planning and acknowledged they knew the approach was unstable.

So, I'm asking. Do those of you that are qualified to comment think all of this was a cowboy way to do things in a jet, even on such a short flight? Considering the flight was so short, should it have required a preflight briefing, the use of navigation aids, strict adherence to procedure, an approach briefing (including a go around procedure), and crew callouts on descent? It reminds me of the Lear 35 crash at TEB in 2017, a short VFR flight, no planning, and flying by the seat of your pants. They're lucky they got away with it IMHO.

Compare the accident approach to one earlier in the year.

KathrynsReport.jpg


https://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/document.cfm?docID=485284&docketID=64015&mkey=100066
 
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3393RP said:
Their calculated VREF was 112 kts...
The aircraft touched down hard at 131 kts.

Do those of you that are qualified to comment think all of this was a cowboy way to do things in a jet, even on such a short flight?
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Yep, and not the first NASCAR related Citation out of SVH to run off a runway, go down a hill, through a fence and catch fire either. I read much of the report the other day. Pilots spoke of "Setting it down". That right there is the wrong mindset, IMO. This isn't a point and shoot kind of a game. But you can go thousands of hours before it bites you. Should have been decelerating below 112 for about five or six seconds before touchdown.
 
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Yet another case of a wealthy individual who buys a multi million dollar jet to transport him/her and their family around, then wants to shortcut on the crew up front.

Also speaks volumes of the training of the crew at one of the big cookie cutter training centers.
 
I never understand why a 2 crew, instrument current flight is by VFR rules when they must zig zag to stay out of clouds, and descend through a "hole" that one of them had trouble seeing. Coupled autopilot, Garmin in the panel, just let it fly to the approach, and take over when the plane is on final, and VFR conditions exist. If at minimum you do not break out until over the airport, fly the pattern visual, and land visual. That way, you know where you are at all times, and you can get speed and altitude right, while avoiding the terrain. That might add 10 minutes to the flight, but more certainty of pleasant outcome. In that part of the country, deviations from Instrument Flight Plan route should be routine to stay out of the actual clouds to give the Boss and family a smooth ride. They only observed one other plane near them for the whole trip.

I have filed IFR flight plans just to get on top quickly, canceled, and wandered around the buildups until near my destination, refiled, and flew the approach or to visual conditions. Finding and climbing or descending through them became a thing of the past with the rating.
 
Doc Holliday said:
Yet another case of a wealthy individual who buys a multi million dollar jet to transport him/her and their family around, then wants to shortcut on the crew up front.

Also speaks volumes of the training of the crew at one of the big cookie cutter training centers.
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Had heard rumblings around it wasn't so much being cheap, as it was hiring some buddies who were pilots. Not sure if that's the case, who knows.
 
Unless something indicates otherwise, I doubt Jr knew how the cockpit was run. And unless his crew had a record of accidents or training failures he probable thought his crew was just like every other crew.

Short flight or long flight, you have to operate under SOP either way. Procedures, checklists, etc. including when to bail out because things aren’t working out as planned. If you are dodging clouds to remain VFR, preoccupied trying to locate an airport visually in (semi) mountainous terrain, concerned about nearby traffic, and are distracted by the EGPWS, you can get task saturated and lose your SA and judgement. Not much different than what your standard GA pilot is concerned about, but in the jet things happen much faster and can go south quick. Disciplined operations is the way to operate a jet.

The issue with the T/R, which may get blamed, was operating as designed and not to blame here. But it’s interesting that no one plans to have a hard landing and bounce when T/Rs are armed, then realize after the fact that you are now in a big pickle trying to go around and you would have to emergency stow them. They knew the system worked that way but in real life that’s a bad spot to be in.

When I read about these accidents it helps to work backward in the sequence of events. Avoid a hard landing attempt with a bounce by avoiding a higher than acceptable approach speed. Avoid that by getting to VREF and doing it early. Get that by having good SOP that demands a stabilized approach before reaching a certain point. Create and follow SOP all the time. Some days flying is simple and relatively easy, other days it can get very demanding and bite you in the butt.
 
This was an unfortunate incident. From what I am reading here it does sound like they were a little hot coming in. I will say one possible contributing factor that hasn't been mentioned is landing on 24 one comes over the section of runway that was lengthened to make it 5000 feet. That section of blacktop is not entirely level with the rest of the runway. The extension slopes down to where the previous section meets the new section. So, right about where one typically touches down, the runway slope turns upward. This has led to me bouncing a landing on at least one occasion and I am based here.

With regard to why didn't they go IFR and fly the approach, well there are reasons not to besides it wasn't the direction they were coming from. The approach is only available for 6. Most often the runway in use is 24. Often there is traffic in the pattern to 24. Just yesterday there were 2 slower planes doing repetitive laps in the pattern. When I tried to coordinate a straight in, the closest plane on downwind said to go in before her, but the guy behind her grumbled about how I should have joined the pattern (he certainly wouldn't have been happy with someone trying to use the opposite runway). The approach only gets one to 1800 agl due to mountains in the traffic pattern, not sure if that was at all a factor.
 
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Way too hot. It was either going to float for the right touchdown speed or bounce hard if forced down.

“VREF was 108kts. Actual airspeed at the runway displaced threshold was 127 KIAS. Five seconds before touchdown, the aircraft was descending at over -1,500 fpm, which was reduced to -250 fpm two seconds before touchdown. The aircraft crossed the runway displaced threshold at 3 ft AGL....The first touchdown...on the runway numbers, was at 126 KIAS, -600 fpm, and 1.4 Gs, and lasted 0.6 seconds. All three gear registered on-ground simultaneously.”

It hurts to read the description of the last few moments before and during touchdown(s).
 
FORANE said:
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With regard to why didn't they go IFR and fly the approach, well there are reasons not to besides it wasn't the direction they were coming from. The approach is only available for 6. Most often the runway in use is 24. Often there is traffic in the pattern to 24. Just yesterday there were 2 slower planes doing repetitive laps in the pattern. When I tried to coordinate a straight in, the closest plane on downwind said to go in before her, but the guy behind her grumbled about how I should have joined the pattern (he certainly wouldn't have been happy with someone trying to use the opposite runway). The approach only gets one to 1800 agl due to mountains in the traffic pattern, not sure if that was at all a factor.
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I get what you're saying about using the RNAV approach, but I'm still astounded by the crew's cavalier actions regarding the flight. They apparently didn't bother using any method at all to locate the airport other than looking out the windows. That works OK in a 172, but in a jet overflying elevated terrain seems quite irresponsible.
 
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FORANE said:
This was an unfortunate incident. From what I am reading here it does sound like they were a little hot coming in.
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Touching down at 32 kts IAS above their April landing speed is more than a "little hot". :rofl:
 
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