DA20 as an instrument training option?

[OU812]

Ok so in my previous thread, I asked for opinions about a new flight school for instrument training and it appears this school is not for me as many concurred. Thank you for everyone's thoughts.

Curious to hear thoughts on using a diamond da20 for at least some instrument training? I understand it's not IMC certified, but would there be value in using it? I have about 10hrs experience in the da20. This school is close to me and there is a possibility another airplane will be coming. I have flown with this school and it's a class act.

My only other option would be to drive around 2hrs to another school, which I am not too excited about.

 

[asicer]

Curious to hear thoughts on using a diamond da20 for at least some instrument training? I understand it's not IMC certified, but would there be value in using it?

As I understand things, I believe the DA20 is not approved for flight into IMC but that does not prevent flight under IFR as long as you remain in VMC. IFR training in at least some IMC is better, but IFR training solely in VMC (under the hood, of course) is not totally devoid of value.

 

[mondtster]

As I understand things, I believe the DA20 is not approved for flight into IMC but that does not prevent flight under IFR as long as you remain in VMC.

Correct. It is legal to file and fly IFR in the DA20 and complete all the instrument training required as long as the aircraft is properly equipped. You might get some odd comments from controllers if you try to tell them you can't go into a cloud while on an instrument clearance though. BTDT...

IFR training in at least some IMC is better, but IFR training solely in VMC (under the hood, of course) is not totally devoid of value.

Agreed. I like the DA20 and would be more than happy receiving or providing instrument instruction in one but I'd rather get some actual instrument experience if possible.

 

[Sundancer]

Give it a try, see if it makes sense for you? I got very little actual during my instrument training (T-41) but we did it almost exclusively at night. Technically VMC, but many times with an overcast and haze we'd venture to the boonies and it was near 'nuff to actual. I visited a Redbird sim near me and they are taking new students and doing 20 hours of accelerated instrument training over a few days. I imagine the DA20 in the IFR system would be every bit as educational, or perhaps more so, even?

 

[Sundancer]

Another thought - some of the desktop sims are configurable to a large degree; I use X-Plane and can set it up with panels very, very close to the two airplanes I fly. You can't log the time or approaches, but if you buy a cheap yoke and take the time to tune the control responses you can can get a lot or good practice in. I haven't done so, but you can also get connected with other folks and have "real' ATC interaction. Even link in your iPad just as in actual flight. I had a lower end desktop, ended up buying a graphics card to smooth out the sim. MIcrosoft's sim is visually stunning, but the realism is more "game like" and less useful as a IFR practice platform.

X-Plane uses "real' approach plates, as in, you download the current ones from the FAA, and they update the airport and terrain data regualrly.

 

[Lon33]

Why isn’t the DA20 legal for IMC flight? It’s a Part 23 plane, isn’t it? It’s not an LSA.

 

[jrcox19]

Why isn’t the DA20 legal for IMC flight? It’s a Part 23 plane, isn’t it? It’s not an LSA.

The DA20 is not IFR certified, thus, it cannot operate in IMC. It has mostly to do with the fact that the aircraft does not meet the required lightning protection

 

[Lon33]

Hmm. I once memorized the equipment necessary for flight in IMC, and I don't remember anything about lightning protection. In fact, the planes I've flown that are legal in IMC didn't have anything related to lightening except static wicks. Is it possible that the POH for DA20s prohibits flight in IMC? If so, that would surprise me. The DA20s I've seen looked to me to be nothing less than 2-seat versions of DA40s.

 

[jrcox19]

Hmm. I once memorized the equipment necessary for flight in IMC, and I don't remember anything about lightning protection. In fact, the planes I've flown that are legal in IMC didn't have anything related to lightening except static wicks. Is it possible that the POH for DA20s prohibits flight in IMC? If so, that would surprise me. The DA20s I've seen looked to me to be nothing less than 2-seat versions of DA40s.

14 CFR 23.2515 covers lightning protection for IFR in Part 23 aircraft. It has nothing to do with equipment, and everything to do with aircraft certification. Yes, the limitation is written out in the POH, but it's not just an arbitrary limitation, it's a certification restriction.

Also, most likely the airplanes you have flown in IFR are metal, or have other built-in lightning protection systems (DA-40, SR-20/22, etc)

 

[Skyrys62]

but if you buy a cheap yoke and take the time to tune the control responses you can can get a lot or good practice in.

If you are interested in doing this, let me know. I have a yoke, with throttles and rudder controls I would sell for a reasonable cost.

 

[Lon33]

How about that! I learn something new every day. Thanks. You're right. The planes I've flown have been metal (C172, Sling TSi) or have built-in lightening systems that I didn't even know were there (SR20). And the DA20 isn't metal.

 

[mandm]

You’d want some experience in the airplane that you plan to take the checkride in. It’s a lot to manage when first learning.

 

[AKiss20]

Correct. It is legal to file and fly IFR in the DA20 and complete all the instrument training required as long as the aircraft is properly equipped. You might get some odd comments from controllers if you try to tell them you can't go into a cloud while on an instrument clearance though. BTDT...

It always struck me as strange that this is permitted. Seems like it would very disruptive to have a plane operating within the IFR system but not able to do what everyone else can do and needing essentially a special affordance. Also seems like it wouldn’t really be great instrument training from a “practicing/learning how to be in the system”. The experience of being on a IFR flight plan in a DA20 will inevitably be somewhat different than that of an actual IMC certified plane unless it’s a CAVU day.

 

[OU812]

Thanks for everyone's input! I appreciate it!

 

[Eric Pauley]

It always struck me as strange that this is permitted. Seems like it would very disruptive to have a plane operating within the IFR system but not able to do what everyone else can do and needing essentially a special affordance. Also seems like it wouldn’t really be great instrument training from a “practicing/learning how to be in the system”. The experience of being on a IFR flight plan in a DA20 will inevitably be somewhat different than that of an actual IMC certified plane unless it’s a CAVU day.

I'm not sure this would even be legal in a DA-20. The AFM states "Flights are permissible in accordance with visual flight rules." Note: VFR, not VMC.

Then again, the KOEL is seemingly referenced only in 91.213 (Inoperative Equipment), so it may not be controlling for IFR requirements generally. Where is the rule that part 91 pilots must comply with the KOEL's kinds of operation (i.e., not the specific equipment)?

 

[dmspilot]

I'm not sure this would even be legal in a DA-20. The AFM states "Flights are permissible in accordance with visual flight rules." Note: VFR, not VMC.

It is legal because FAA Order 8900.1 specifically allows it. Note that is only legal for training purposes.

Then again, the KOEL is seemingly referenced only in 91.213 (Inoperative Equipment), so it may not be controlling for IFR requirements generally. Where is the rule that part 91 pilots must comply with the KOEL's kinds of operation (i.e., not the specific equipment)?

Uhh what? 91.9?

 

[Eric Pauley]

Uhh what? 91.9?

Oops!

 

[PPC1052]

Ok so in my previous thread, I asked for opinions about a new flight school for instrument training and it appears this school is not for me as many concurred. Thank you for everyone's thoughts.

Curious to hear thoughts on using a diamond da20 for at least some instrument training? I understand it's not IMC certified, but would there be value in using it? I have about 10hrs experience in the da20. This school is close to me and there is a possibility another airplane will be coming. I have flown with this school and it's a class act.

My only other option would be to drive around 2hrs to another school, which I am not too excited about.

I say go for it. I did my private in a DA-20, and loved it. I think it would be fine to do your IFR in. As others above have said, it's not IFR due to the lack of lightning protection, but that doesn't stop you from training in it, or even flying IFR in VMC.