Curious about this

Gilbert Buettner

Gilbert Buettner

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Gil
The FBO I work for has a policy of not allowing any independent CFI to teach at this airport. The manager/chief pilot's opinion is that you must be an "approved vendor" with the city that owns the airport. And our FBO has a contract with the city that gives exclusive rights for fuel sales, airplane rentals and instruction.

Can a municipality prevent an FAA certificated instructor from providing services as he asserts?

This is not a big deal, but I am curious. Before he hired me, long ago, the same guy threatened to have the city attorney sue me for doing a high-performance checkout and endorsement as an independent CFI. I laughed. The city attorney wasn't very likely to go after someone for a hundred dollars or so.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
The FBO I work for has a policy of not allowing any independent CFI to teach at this airport. The manager/chief pilot's opinion is that you must be an "approved vendor" with the city that owns the airport. And our FBO has a contract with the city that gives exclusive rights for fuel sales, airplane rentals and instruction.

Can a municipality prevent an FAA certificated instructor from providing services as he asserts?

This is not a big deal, but I am curious. Before he hired me, long ago, the same guy threatened to have the city attorney sue me for doing a high-performance checkout and endorsement as an independent CFI. I laughed. The city attorney wasn't very likely to go after someone for a hundred dollars or so.
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Q1: how does the city enforce this when the student and CFI start their flight and end their flight at a different airport but conduct a touch and go at your airport?

Q2: same as above except a low approach?

Q3: What about a CFI that departs from your airport with a student but does not provide instruction until arriving at a different airport?

Reality is you’re talking vendors….if an independent CFI wanted to open a business providing flight instruction based at the the field, he’d need to get an exception to the exclusivity provision.

If an owner/operator is simply picking up or meeting another party at the field, let the city attempt to serve a cease and desist; there is no criminal prosecution of a civil matter.
 
Good questions. There is a CFI from a neighboring airport who brings his students here for pattern work, and the manager is upset about this but unsure how to deal with it. He has considered contacting the other airport manager, but AFAIK hasn't done that yet. (Interesting, because we often take our students to THAT airport without any agreement from the manager there.)

In my opinion, a low approach isn't really using the airport facilities. No wear and tear. No air traffic control here.

I think my boss would consider a CFI departing here, even if not instructing until elsewhere, was not an "approved vendor" and would therefore be violating the contract he has with the city.
 
I understand that the manager's opinion is based on the FBO's "exclusive" contract that includes flight instruction. He has challenged at least one independent CFI a few years ago, who stopped, but he has also overlooked a local pilot using PIC for an instrument rating when he did not want to provide instrument instruction to that particular pilot. So, it seems there is a precedent for allowing someone other than our FBO to give instruction on the airport.

On occasion, I have a student with an airplane at a nearby airport who wants me to come there for lessons. My boss always wants me to ask permission from the airport manager there. On the other hand, our syllabus requires we take our students for pattern work at five nearby airports, and there is no agreement with the managers there that it's OK with them.

What is a "local State sponsors office or ADO?"
 
If you aren’t using the airports facilities to do the training, how is it any of their business / how would they even know?
 
Here's my non-attorney take on this:

Is this field a public-use airport, or not? It sounds like the FBO wants to treat it as semi-private. (Does such a thing even exist?)

Has the city accepted any FAA grants for that airport? I'm wondering if there's any conflict with grant assurances.

Also, I'm wondering how an independent CFI could be successfully sued for violation of a contract that he/she is not a party to.

And if the FBO finds a way to establish that they have the legal right to prohibit CFIs from other airports from bringing their students to your airport, then the restriction should be stated in the Airport/Facility Directory section of the Chart Supplement, IMO.

I wonder what @midlifeflyer and @Lindberg would think about all this.
 
Salty said:
If you aren’t using the airports facilities to do the training, how is it any of their business / how would they even know?
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Sometimes the visiting CFI brings his student into the office to use the restroom. He parks on the apron, which includes our line person marshalling his airplane and chocking it. He's using the facilities.
 
Palmpilot said:
Here's my non-attorney take on this:

Is this field a public-use airport, or not? It sounds like the FBO wants to treat it as semi-private. (Does such a thing even exist?)

Has the city accepted any FAA grants for that airport? I'm wondering if there's any conflict with grant assurances.

Also, I'm wondering how an independent CFI could be successfully sued for violation of a contract that he/she is not a party to.

And if the FBO finds a way to establish that they have the legal right to prohibit CFIs from other airports from bringing their students to your airport, then the restriction should be stated in the Airport/Facility Directory section of the Chart Supplement, IMO.

I wonder what @midlifeflyer and @Lindberg would think about all this.
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Yes, public use, lots of money from federal and state.

I agree with you.
 
If it's a public-use airport, this won't fly. The FBO might not allow another instructor to use its facilities, e.g., using a conference room for ground instruction, but it can't bar an instructor from instructing on the entire airport. Without looking at the agreements, my guess is the "exclusivity" prevents the city from signing a lease with another training provider.
 
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If it’s a public use airport tell the airport manager to go pound sound. If the FBO wants to prevent an independent CFI from using the FBO rental fleet, they can demand that. If the airport authority wants to exclude a second FBO lease agreement so be it. But to tell an independent CFI they can’t instruct on the field? That’s overreach. Preventing the CFI from taking a leak in the bathroom is petty, but it’s the only thing they can get away with. I’m guessing the FBO owner / manager has a cozy relationship with the airport manager?
 
Arbiter419 said:
Tell your chief pilot that some goofball independent CFI in Pennsylvania thinks he's an idiot.

I'd tell him to kick rocks and not even feel a little bad about it.
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Uhhhm, he's talking about his employer here. :eek2:
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
The FBO owner is the airport manager. He is an unpaid city employee who manages the airport in return for the exclusive contract described above.
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sounds like a conflict of interest to me, along with a city employee having a non compete contract ( and probably not publicly awarded) with the city. a would say a few laws being broken there. but im no lawyer.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
The FBO owner is the airport manager. He is an unpaid city employee who manages the airport in return for the exclusive contract described above.
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He has no say whatsoever regarding who gets into my airplane nor what we do, nor any say regarding whose plane I choose to fly in.

End of story.
 
The FBO has been in operation since 1992. I don't know the history exactly, but I believe the company was probably the only bidder on the contract. Small airports don't usually attract competitive bids. I don't think there is anything illegal about the city contract.

"City employee" in name, but unpaid. He does report to an airport advisory committee, I believe.

It's all open and legal, I believe. My interest is the fundamental question of whether a federally certified flight instructor can be prohibited from giving instruction at an airport that receives federal funds. Doesn't federal law supersede state law and municipal law? Is there any restriction on the ability of a CFI to give instruction at an airport?
 
Does the airport have published minimum standards? Does it include minimum standards for flight instruction? The few times I've seen prohibition of independent businesses, it's been based on minimum standards that required things like have office space, hold a certain level of insurance, etc.

If that's the case, starting point is AC 150/5190-7, MINIMUM STANDARDS FOR COMMERCIAL AERONAUTICAL ACTIVITIES, which gives very general guidelines. It talks about flight instruction on page 9.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Does the airport have published minimum standards? Does it include minimum standards for flight instruction? The few times I've seen prohibition of independent businesses, it's been based on minimum standards that required things like have office space, hold a certain level of insurance, etc.

If that's the case, starting point is AC 150/5190-7, MINIMUM STANDARDS FOR COMMERCIAL AERONAUTICAL ACTIVITIES, which gives very general guidelines. It talks about flight instruction on page 9.
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Possibly. But the notification I had years ago when I was warned about independent flight instruction was about not being an "approved vendor," not about minimum standards. So it was a city contract limitation, not anything about insurance or office space. The FBO manager believes no one else can offer any flight instruction, rental or fuel services because there is a contract guaranteeing exclusivity.

If there are minimum standards, I would not have met them, because I did not have an office, and probably did not meet insurance requirements. His complaint at that time was I was not authorized to give instruction to someone who had previously been his customer. I helped the fellow get his high performance endorsement, and later went to work for the guy who complained about me. (Maybe his way to get rid of the competition?) We get along fine, but this issue has always been a question in my mind.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
Possibly. But the notification I had years ago when I was warned about independent flight instruction was about not being an "approved vendor," not about minimum standards...
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Ask for documentation. Freedom of Information Act is your friend. It’ll be interesting to see what comes of it.

Too scared? Ask a neighbor to do it.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
Possibly. But the notification I had years ago when I was warned about independent flight instruction was about not being an "approved vendor," not about minimum standards. So it was a city contract limitation, not anything about insurance or office space. The FBO manager believes no one else can offer any flight instruction, rental or fuel services because there is a contract guaranteeing exclusivity.

If there are minimum standards, I would not have met them, because I did not have an office, and probably did not meet insurance requirements. His complaint at that time was I was not authorized to give instruction to someone who had previously been his customer. I helped the fellow get his high performance endorsement, and later went to work for the guy who complained about me. We get along fine, but this issue has always been a question in my mind.
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It was just a possible subject of inquiry, not even a small attempt to answer it.
 
TCABM said:
Ask for documentation. Freedom of Information Act is your friend. It’ll be interesting to see what comes of it.

Too scared? Ask a neighbor to do it.
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I am a former TV news reporter and news director. Very familiar with FOI stuff. But I work for the guy, so not so sure I want to poke the hornets' nest.
 
I think the FBO is more threatened by you potentially stealing their business. And just used that as a ploy to discourage you. In his scenario, is it ok to meet the student at a neighboring airport. With as hard as instructors are to find, I wouldn't want to lose one.

A customer of mine, his son was the chief instructor at the local flight school. If I had contact him directly about training in my own plane when he wasn't working. Shouldn't be an issue. Now, if I went to the school for a few flights then had him train on the side, probably frowned upon. Now, I might believe the exclusivity agreement might hold water when it comes to fuel, rental, or service. But how could a neighboring school land at the airport without being an approved vendor?

If its your plane or the students plane and he contacted you directly, hell with the FBO.
 
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Racerx said:
If its your plane or the students plane and he contacted you directly, hell with the FBO.
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That was the case. The pilot had trained with the FBO for his private certificate, then purchased a Cessna 182 and needed the high performance endorsement. He grew frustrated with the FBO and contacted me. I helped get him the endorsement and was then chastised for it by the FBO manager.

I found it amusing, since there was no way the city attorney was going to come after me for a couple of hundred dollars. But I have always been curious about how a CFI could be prevented by a city agreement to offer services authorized by the federal government.
 
Racerx said:
If its your plane or the students plane and he contacted you directly, hell with the FBO.
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:yeahthat:


The exclusivity contract may prevent the city from allowing another instructor to have a place of business on the airport, but that would be about the extent of it. An instructor also might not be able to post advertising or leave a stack of business cards, but that seems gray if they allow other advertising.

No way they can prevent a student and a CFI from meeting at the airport and going for a flight together. I’d be amazed if they could prevent you from sitting down in the pilot’s lounge and briefing/debriefing a flight.
 
Sounds like restraint of trade to me. It is, after all, a public airport. Of course, the guy with the contract wants the broadest interpretation possible (I’m surprised he hasn’t put in pay toilets yet). But until you see the contract, there isn’t much to talk about. You might get you city councilman to ask the city attorney. There is also the question of whether the independent contractor has a business license & pays taxes to the city.
 
By the way, posts on this board are viewable by the public. No registration required.
 
rhkennerly said:
You might get you city councilman to ask the city attorney. There is also the question of whether the independent contractor has a business license & pays taxes to the city.
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I don't live in the city, so no representative to ask.

Does an independent CFI need a business license? Not that I knew of in my previous places of employment. I have done flight instruction in Duluth, MN, Superior, WI, Kalamazoo, MI, Three Rivers, MI, and Merrill, WI without ever hearing of this.

Well, wait. The job in Three Rivers was as an employee, not independent CFI.
 
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Gilbert Buettner said:
That was the case. The pilot had trained with the FBO for his private certificate, then purchased a Cessna 182 and needed the high performance endorsement. He grew frustrated with the FBO and contacted me. I helped get him the endorsement and was then chastised for it by the FBO manager.

I found it amusing, since there was no way the city attorney was going to come after me for a couple of hundred dollars. But I have always been curious about how a CFI could be prevented by a city agreement to offer services authorized by the federal government.
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Every flight school I know would take an extra instructor yesterday. I can see the conflict of interest, but that's not even what the FBO argued. If he had, the guy tried them first. You've got a sought after skill and have leverage. I wouldn't want to work for a guy that petty.

So say the guy bought the plane out of state. Called you up to fly it to another airport, you do the sign off. Then he flies you home. No problem?
 
=
Racerx said:
b I wouldn't want to work for a guy that petty.
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He's a good guy. We just disagree on some things like this. He and his partner are very, very conservative on risks to their business, and I understand.

For example, I live very near to the local ski hill. But when someone flys in and wants a ride to the ski hill, they don't want me to do it, even if I am on my way home and it is two blocks away from my house. They worry about insurance since I am an FBO employee and there could be an accident on the way.

Racerx said:
So say the guy bought the plane out of state. Called you up to fly it to another airport, you do the sign off. Then he flies you home. No problem?
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Probably not. Depends on if I bill it through the flight school or just do it independently. He would prefer I bill it through the FBO (where I get significantly less) , but if I did it independently, I would have to worry about him finding out, which might cost me the job.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
I don't live in the city, so no representative to ask.

Does an independent CFI need a business license?
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The city lies within a county and your county represents you.

What’s business license?

Some jurisdictions may require a business to register their business and pay taxes on business income and property. Others may not. Some states require certain trades and professions to be licensed by the state or professional association. In a CFI’s case, that would be the FAA. You don’t even need a dba to provide your services, but you need to collect sales tax on top of paying local business taxes.
 
TCABM said:
The city lies within a county and your county represents you.

What’s business license?

Some jurisdictions may require a business to register their business and pay taxes on business income and property. Others may not. Some states require certain trades and professions to be licensed by the state or professional association. In a CFI’s case, that would be the FAA. You don’t even need a dba to provide your services, but you need to collect sales tax on top of paying local business taxes.
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Since I have not been an independent CFI for many years, I am not concerned about that. In Wisconsin, flight instruction is not taxable.
 
I've got employees and they do side jobs. They've got a skill and Im not about to say they can't use that skill elsewhere. I'm generally fine with them using my equipment after hours. I'll usually sell them material at my cost on top of it all.

Now, the only time this policy was an issue was when I quoted a job. Then that business owner who is friends with an employee of mine had the employee do it as a side job. Staircase with a mezzanine. About 1500 in materials I paid for. I got paid back 6 weeks later. But I spent my own time quoting it, then financed it, all while I was on vacation no less. I wasn't happy. Then the employee wasn't happy. Had the guy contacted the employee directly then he order material through me so I can mark it up. Fine. But having the office girl order it while I'm away to say add on 35%. No bueno
 
Some localities do want a fee for doing business in their town. I generally ignore that and claim ignorance if asked because it's pretty stupid. And having to find out if a town wants you to pay a 30 dollar registration fee to work in the town gets pretty annoying when you might work in 50 different towns in a year.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
Since I have not been an independent CFI for many years, I am not concerned about that. In Wisconsin, flight instruction is not taxable.
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Well then what, exactly, are you concerned about?
 
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