CRW UPS Crash

What do you mean by "that crew"? A fully licensed and trained crew certified by the FAA is not good enough?
Circling approach? It's in our OPS Specs so yes it would be legal. (the mins are 1000/3)

Work for the wrong company? You truly do not get the real world. Please, come on over to my company (if you can get hired - there is a 68% washout rate before the first interview - stupid Hogan Test), I would love to see what you think after a year or so. And yes, we have some of the best equipped aircraft in the industry.
 
MD11Pilot said:
What do you mean by "that crew"? A fully licensed and trained crew certified by the FAA is not good enough?
Circling approach? It's in our OPS Specs so yes it would be legal. (the mins are 1000/3)

Work for the wrong company? You truly do not get the real world. Please, come on over to my company (if you can get hired - there is a 68% washout rate before the first interview - stupid Hogan Test), I would love to see what you think after a year or so. And yes, we have some of the best equipped aircraft in the industry.
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Who are you talking to here? I said "that crew", but not in a derogatory way.

PS - I'm on your side here
PPS- I already fly for a major
 
I think the industry needs to come to grips with the underlying working conditions of the "apprentice class" of part 121/135 operators. It's overwhelming for me, the level of contempt the industry has for the underclass worker.

Everybody talks about freedom of choice, but the reality is that the industry feeds on the price inelasticity of entrants, and the almost contemptuous attitude towards the working conditions of those who are the least economically capable of negotiating it (the young and inexperienced). Working like mules in fatigue-inducing work schedules for flight time as compensation (not legal tender for goods and services in this Country I'm afraid....) does not particularly strike me as a safety-centric approach to product delivery.

I also find the position of mainline pilots a bit complicit, but that's a thread of its own. I just wonder how can we normalize the conditions at the bottom while retaining intellectual honesty when proffering the idea pilots are free to pursue safety-driven vocational decision making, in this apartheid of a so-called industry.
 
hindsight2020 said:
I also find the position of mainline pilots a bit complicit, but that's a thread of its own.
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That is a true statement. It's the "I've got mine" attitude but then it goes back to seniority. After having been at three bankrupt carriers, I understand the "sucks to be you, but that is just the way it is" system. And yes, you're correct, this subject would be a very big thread if we broached it here. Probably best left for the internal forums. I have been ALPA twice, Teamsters twice and Independent twice. My present Independent Pilots Association is the most unified, tightest group of fantastic pilots I have ever associated with. We could write a book on the things that we have done to help out each other. The company furloughed 109 -just because they could- and the pilots voted for and donated monies to pay for each ones insurance to keep them covered for their families. If a pilot passes away, we have a committee that monitors their families to help with guidance for schools etc. for their kids until they are out of college. Need a military academy appointment. We have the guys that help with that...great group of people.
 
MD11Pilot said:
What do you mean by "that crew"? A fully licensed and trained crew certified by the FAA is not good enough?
Circling approach? It's in our OPS Specs so yes it would be legal. (the mins are 1000/3)

Work for the wrong company? You truly do not get the real world. Please, come on over to my company (if you can get hired - there is a 68% washout rate before the first interview - stupid Hogan Test), I would love to see what you think after a year or so. And yes, we have some of the best equipped aircraft in the industry.
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It's not the licenses about the crew, it's about the working conditions, QOL and culture, and that does make a huge difference in saftey.

And why are you flying the best equipment? I mean like a second ago you were all on my case for even saying they should have a frickin 430 lol


As for me, I'm good, I'm not cut out to fly the airlines, culture issues.
I mean you're talking about flying broke and poorly equipped stuff and flying for places that go BK like its some perverted badge of honor, ya know those are not GOOD things right lol.
I'd rather do something that leaves the world better than I found it, while also giving me a good QOL and not requiring me to fly junk planes or work for a junk company.
 
MD11Pilot said:
Wow! Just plain and simple wow!

Where in the world do you come up with this drivel?

You have a nice life.
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Care to explain your drivel about my "drivel"?

I'd be happy to go point by point with you.

And I'm already having a great life, not to be snarky, but legit life is GOOD, I'm also probably young enough to be your kid.
 
I can see where you're both coming from.

I can also look into the hangar doors of the local UPS feeder... and I'm not sure I'd want to fly anything they're flying. At the very least, it's the thinnest maintenance crew I've ever seen for the number of aircraft that get rolled in and out.

They don't exactly have a stellar safety record, either... but that's a different couple of threads and NTSB reports.

I also (completely by coincidence and met outside of aviation) happen to know one of the FAA inspectors assigned to keep an eye on them, and he's a straight shooter.

Or was. He should be retired by now, judging by our last conversation about a year ago. His paperwork was in.

Pilot hiring is great these days, best I've ever seen.

The equipment at the bottom? It's always been sketchy. Sometimes very sketchy.

That part hasn't changed in the twenty years I've been a spectator. Low end freight has always flown the tired hand me downs.

I don't think it necessarily relates to THIS accident, though. Unless the folks flying the thing always had a Garmin, and then one day didn't.

Anyway, RIP poor souls. Hell of a way to go, bouncing off a runway out of control, and then falling off a cliff.
 
MD11Pilot said:
50/50 are good odds. Tell UPS to pony up....oh you very funny guy. The last contract took almost 7 years to negotiate. It took an act of Congress and other countries threatening non entry to get TCAS. It is a good company and they pay very well...now, but they do not spend a penny more than required and certainly wouldn't spend it on another companies planes.

Fed Ex....well their not UPS. We like to say that Fed Ex is an airline with trucks...UPS is a trucking company with planes. And I am blessed to be there.

One thing to remember also...UPS really has nothing to do with the feeders. They just contract with companies to provide a service to them.
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UPS has nothing to do with the feeders? BS, they could write the contracts to require GPS in the airplanes, but that would require UPS to spend more money. But, as you and your brothers figured out, UPS cares about nothing more than their money. If they'd spend a dime, they'd end up with a much better system, but its not going to happen.
 
I'd just like to point out the irony in the argument that equipping airplanes under the UPS flag with GPS and VNAV will somehow prevent accidents.
:(
 
MauleSkinner said:
I'd just like to point out the irony in the argument that equipping airplanes under the UPS flag with GPS and VNAV will somehow prevent accidents.
:(
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Yeah, its a joke of an argument to begin with. As soon as one crashes doing an LPV, they'll be arguing that its the fault of the magenta line.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
UPS has nothing to do with the feeders? BS, they could write the contracts to require GPS in the airplanes, but that would require UPS to spend more money. But, as you and your brothers figured out, UPS cares about nothing more than their money. If they'd spend a dime, they'd end up with a much better system, but its not going to happen.
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You get it. Could and should are worlds apart.
 
MD11Pilot said:
You get it. Could and should are worlds apart.
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I spent a chunk of time flying for a UPS feeder. That experience was enough to make me realize that I'll never work for Brown. The way they treated their feed operations versus how DHL treated us couldn't have been further apart. UPS just saw you as a number, they didn't really care what the weather was, only when the freighter left and the freight had to be there. Thankfully we had good flight followers who would lay down the law with UPS regional management.
 
Back before UPS had their own airline I worked for Orion Air, we contracted for UPS. Those morons only knew trucking and expected aircraft N# to be at gate #X for loading. What a pain in the ass, when you only had 3 or 4 hours to work discrepancies, and had to reposition aircraft.
 
As a UPS employee in operations, I can confirm, we are just a number , as easily subtracted as we are added(actual quote form a higher up one time). They always take the cheapest route.
Met a few of the pilots flying our loads into CRW a couple times over the years, always nice people.

RIP to the crew.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
I spent a chunk of time flying for a UPS feeder. That experience was enough to make me realize that I'll never work for Brown. The way they treated their feed operations versus how DHL treated us couldn't have been further apart. UPS just saw you as a number, they didn't really care what the weather was, only when the freighter left and the freight had to be there. Thankfully we had good flight followers who would lay down the law with UPS regional management.
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Considering that DHL went out of business in the US and brown is still around, there is probably some merit to their hard nosed business practices.
 
weilke said:
Considering that DHL went out of business in the US and brown is still around, there is probably some merit to their hard nosed business practices.
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You've never been to CVG have you? DHL is the largest shipper worldwide, and sure they may not ship domestic US parcels, but they do a ton of US-international shipping.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
You've never been to CVG have you? DHL is the largest shipper worldwide, and sure they may not ship domestic US parcels, but they do a ton of US-international shipping.
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They shut down their US distribution and contracted it to UPS. Being nice to your contractors and running your own airport costs money, lots of money.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
You've never been to CVG have you? DHL is the largest shipper worldwide, and sure they may not ship domestic US parcels, but they do a ton of US-international shipping.
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Kinda comparing apples and tater tots, here. DHL contracts their airlift through Atlas. UPS owns their airplanes.
 
Follow the money. If there is an accident, who pays? Not the big company but the insurance company. That gets reflected back as an increased insurance cost (spread across the fleet) and figured into the contractors rates or profitability. In fact a crash rarely eve reflects on the big company - unless social media gets involved... And rarely does the crew and cargo merit the same coverage as a plane full of pax. Some MBA has done the math and decided it's cheaper to pay the insurance than to equip the fleet and maintain the electronics.


Don't look for any help from Congress o the administration right now - there are those in Congress that don't see why health insurance should cover something like diabetes.
 
weilke said:
They shut down their US distribution and contracted it to UPS. Being nice to your contractors and running your own airport costs money, lots of money.
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Guess that DHL delivery I had the other day from the DHL truck must have been a fake huh?
 
wsuffa said:
Don't look for any help from Congress o the administration right now...
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Doesn't really matter which flavor of partisan is in control of Congress, they don't care in the slightest about what equipment is on board commercial aircraft unless there's a manufacturer of said equipment in their district they want to earn a nice bribe from.

Haven't seen more than maybe three people in Congress in my lifetime that gave a rat poop about aviation safety, except for the ATP debacle, and all that really was, was a way to gather some bribes from the aviation colleges.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Uhh, no they haven't... But continue spreading your fake news all you want.
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10,000 people lost their jobs and the rotting line of DHL trucks in front of the shuttered DHL distribution center was just a figment of my imagination. Got it :thumbsup:

The US is still an endpoint in their network, just like Yemen or Chad. Go on the DHL site and try to enter a shipment for two locations within the US, they don't even offer that option. You can ship from the US to international and from international to a US location. You can't drop a letter in the airborne box in Cedar Rapids, IA and get it to St Albans,VT the next day. Their domestic shipping operation was shut down in 2009.
 
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weilke said:
10,000 people lost their jobs and the rotting line of DHL trucks in front of the shuttered DHL distribution center was just a figment of my imagination. Got it :thumbsup:

The US is still an endpoint in their network, just like Yemen or Chad. Go on the DHL site and try to enter a shipment for two locations within the US, they don't even offer that option. You can ship from the US to international and from international to a US location. You can't drop a letter in the airborne box in Cedar Rapids, IA and get it to St Albans,VT the next day. Their domestic shipping operation was shut down in 2009.
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Reading isn't your strong suit, is it? I said that posts ago. But you can't read. Just because they don't do domestic US shipping, doesn't mean they aren't in the US. I see yellow trucks all the time.
 
weilke said:
10,000 people lost their jobs and the rotting line of DHL trucks in front of the shuttered DHL distribution center was just a figment of my imagination. Got it :thumbsup:
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Guess this don't exist either: http://www.chacompanies.com/projects/dhl-express-cvg-hub-expansion-program/

And this must be "fake news": http://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/business/2017/02/23/need-job-dhl-hiring-900-cvg-hub/98298420/

And this: http://www.cvgairport.com/about/next

weilke said:
The US is still an endpoint in their network, just like Yemen or Chad. Go on the DHL site and try to enter a shipment for two locations within the US, they don't even offer that option. You can ship from the US to international and from international to a US location. You can't drop a letter in the airborne box in Cedar Rapids, IA and get it to St Albans,VT the next day. Their domestic shipping operation was shut down in 2009.
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Go back and reread the responses. Reading comprehension seems to be your weak point.
 
As Kellyanne Conway told Anderson a few days ago, they just have a 'different set of facts'
 
There's a lot of folks in the media who have trouble separating fact from opinion. It's called bias, or slant, and everyone has it. The "news" is rife with opinion, much like this forum.
 
N659HB said:
There's a lot of folks in the media who have trouble separating fact from opinion. It's called bias, or slant, and everyone has it. The "news" is rife with opinion, much like this forum.
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Has nothing to do with the media, but everything to do with humans. People like to manipulate reality for their own agendas.
 
N659HB said:
Yeah. Everyone has an agenda these days.
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*Everyone* always has and had an agenda.

That many have switched their personal agendas from important stuff like family, their job, and normal life, to politics to make partisans rich and powerful, is somewhat odd, but they do have excellent leadership, for cults.

Not so much any leadership as it relates to anything real, just in building cults and their money machines and schemes. They're really good at that part.
 
James331 said:
Care to explain your drivel about my "drivel"?

I'd be happy to go point by point with you.

And I'm already having a great life, not to be snarky, but legit life is GOOD, I'm also probably young enough to be your kid.
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Out of curiosity what do you fly and in what type of operation?
 
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