Crosswind landing pointers?

[Alexb2000]

As you approach work the ailerons like mad, dropping either wing is fine, just keep working them to the stops.

Round out a little high and just stomp opposite rudder, STOMP it.

Simultaneously begin an early flair.

As you drift off centerline nose over to get back on course.

The secret is to plant the nose wheel on centerline, it's really easy to see with the cowl down vs. up in the air, so just drive it home.

You will probably bounce, if you do crank FULL aileron into the wind, full opposite rudder, and jerk the yoke till it touches your chest.

You will now hit on the upwind main (this is excellent). Release all the controls, just let them go as hard as that is to do.

You may find yourself careening toward the ditch. If so bend your knees as up as high as you can. Now stomp and I mean stomp the brakes, try to imagine pushing the pedals through the floor boards. That will get you stopped in no time.

Retract flaps, taxi in, grad a cup of coffee, and post on POA that you have nailed another crosswind landing.

It's just that easy.

 

[JasonM]

I just made this real quick. Lets say i am pointed stright down the runway and setup like this picture. Do I flare with that same setup or level the plane?

If I flare like that, should I expect to input more right rudder? Seems to me like the plane will just head off to the left if I flare like this.

 

[JasonM]

As you approach work the ailerons like mad, dropping either wing is fine, just keep working them to the stops.

Round out a little high and just stomp opposite rudder, STOMP it.

Simultaneously begin an early flair.

As you drift off centerline nose over to get back on course.

The secret is to plant the nose wheel on centerline, it's really easy to see with the cowl down vs. up in the air, so just drive it home.

You will probably bounce, if you do crank FULL aileron into the wind, full opposite rudder, and jerk the yoke till it touches your chest.

You will now hit on the upwind main (this is excellent). Release all the controls, just let them go as hard as that is to do.

You may find yourself careening toward the ditch. If so bend your knees as up as high as you can. Now stomp and I mean stomp the brakes, try to imagine pushing the pedals through the floor boards. That will get you stopped in no time.

Retract flaps, taxi in, grad a cup of coffee, and post on POA that you have nailed another crosswind landing.

It's just that easy.

There is a few things in there that I have been taught to never do. Are you being serious or just poking fun at my struggles?

 

[tmyers]

Yes he is funnin with you.

 

[EdFred]

He shoulda added a smiley face.

 

[lr60plt]

I just made this real quick. Lets say i am pointed stright down the runway and setup like this picture. Do I flare with that same setup or level the plane?

If I flare like that, should I expect to input more right rudder?

We have already answered that...? Yes. Hold that correction in. Use what rudder you need to keep the nose straight.

 

[Alexb2000]

There is a few things in there that I have been taught to never do. Are you being serious or just poking fun at my struggles?

Not making fun of you at all. Please don't take it personally, it's only meant as a joke.

We've all had a hard time with crosswinds and you've already received great advice. Sometimes having a laugh along the way doesn't hurt either. That's all I was trying to do.

 

[tmyers]

I think you will find that if you get your stuff together by 1/4 mile final the landing will be pretty much a non event. The only thing that can spoil that is gusts, but even they will settle down once you are in ground affect. Stay fluid and act according to what you see and feel. Don't freeze up, you will get it. I doubt there are many that didn't dread X-wind landing at some point in their training.

 

[LDJones]

As you approach work the ailerons like mad, dropping either wing is fine, just keep working them to the stops.

Round out a little high and just stomp opposite rudder, STOMP it.

Simultaneously begin an early flair.

As you drift off centerline nose over to get back on course.

The secret is to plant the nose wheel on centerline, it's really easy to see with the cowl down vs. up in the air, so just drive it home.

You will probably bounce, if you do crank FULL aileron into the wind, full opposite rudder, and jerk the yoke till it touches your chest.

You will now hit on the upwind main (this is excellent). Release all the controls, just let them go as hard as that is to do.

You may find yourself careening toward the ditch. If so bend your knees as up as high as you can. Now stomp and I mean stomp the brakes, try to imagine pushing the pedals through the floor boards. That will get you stopped in no time.

Retract flaps, taxi in, grad a cup of coffee, and post on POA that you have nailed another crosswind landing.

It's just that easy.

You stole my syllabus!

 

[LDJones]

I just made this real quick. Lets say i am pointed stright down the runway and setup like this picture. Do I flare with that same setup or level the plane?

If I flare like that, should I expect to input more right rudder? Seems to me like the plane will just head off to the left if I flare like this.

Yes...you flare like that, touching down on the upwind main, holding right rudder while rolling in increasing aileron as speed bleeds off and right main touches, then the nose wheel.

 

[JasonM]

Perfect. I apologize for those of you that had to read me ask the same thing a few times. I just wanted to be sure I understood 100%. I get it now. thank you all again. and alexb2000, no worries. I can take and poke fun as well, just asked to clarify.

 

[denverpilot]

I just made this real quick. Lets say i am pointed stright down the runway and setup like this picture. Do I flare with that same setup or level the plane?

If I flare like that, should I expect to input more right rudder? Seems to me like the plane will just head off to the left if I flare like this.

Mental question... Move the maneuver somewhere else away from the runway...

If you level off three miles out on final with the same control inputs, does the airplane go left? Nope. The wind is still pushing it to the right.

 

[Silvaire]

I'll need you to demonstrate that for me. How do you do a slip wings level while maintaining runway alignment??

If you step on the right rudder and input an amount of left aileron to maintain wings level are you not flying in a slip? If you put in more left aileron to drop the left wing aren't you going to also have to put in more right rudder to maintain the direction the nose is pointing? I'm not sure why you think the horizon has anything to do with this. Furthermore, as far as the airplane is concerned, there is no "wind" blowing on it from one side or the other. It only knows that you are flying it in an uncoordinated attitude so that the fuselage is not aligned with the direction you are flying through the air.

"Crab and kick" is no different from what's being discussed here but rather than maintain a slip through the entire final approach you wait until the moment before touchdown and then apply the same identical inputs.

 

[LDJones]

If you step on the right rudder and input an amount of left aileron to maintain wings level are you not flying in a slip? If you put in more left aileron to drop the left wing aren't you going to also have to put in more right rudder to maintain the direction the nose is pointing? I'm not sure why you think the horizon has anything to do with this. Furthermore, as far as the airplane is concerned, there is no "wind" blowing on it from one side or the other. It only knows that you are flying it in an uncoordinated attitude so that the fuselage is not aligned with the direction you are flying through the air.

"Crab and kick" is no different from what's being discussed here but rather than maintain a slip through the entire final approach you wait until the moment before touchdown and then apply the same identical inputs.

By your description you're talking about a forward slip, but with that your longitudinal access is not aligned with the runway, so I wouldn't recommend landing that way. If you were to do it such that you were aligned, it wouldn't stop the sideways drift.

Re-read the Airplane Flying Handbook pages 8-13 thru 8-15 to review crosswind techniques. The two methods described vary only in technique leading up to the roundout/flare. The last seconds of the landing are identical....left wing low (banked into the wind), opposite rudder to maintain longitudinal alignment with the runway, touchdown on upwind wheel.

 

[Silvaire]

By your description you're talking about a forward slip, but with that your longitudinal access is not aligned with the runway...

Nope, that's not what I'm describing. A slip is a slip and the only difference between a forward and side slip is how the nose is pointed in relation to the runway. We're discussing crosswind landings with the nose aligned with the runway and aligned with the ground track. I just mentioned that it isn't imperatively necessary to have the wing low and touch on one main first.

I understand you're an instructor and you have your syllabus and way of teaching things. I was taught the same way. I've just learned in 44 years of flying that most of the time it's not necessary to go to that extreme.

I also understand however that this thread was started by a student so it's probably best to not introduce any confusion on the issue. He should learn it by the book.

 

[alfadog]

And be patient. Crosswinds can be challenging, especially if gusty. Work it and when it is right, set it down. Be sure you have a point picked beyond which you will stop trying and go around. On a runway with an instrument approach, you can use the fixed distance marker, i.e. if you don't have the wheels down by then, go around and try again.

 

[LDJones]

Nope, that's not what I'm describing. A slip is a slip and the only difference between a forward and side slip is how the nose is pointed in relation to the runway. We're discussing crosswind landings with the nose aligned with the runway and aligned with the ground track. I just mentioned that it isn't imperatively necessary to have the wing low and touch on one main first.

I understand you're an instructor and you have your syllabus and way of teaching things. I was taught the same way. I've just learned in 44 years of flying that most of the time it's not necessary to go to that extreme.

I also understand however that this thread was started by a student so it's probably best to not introduce any confusion on the issue. He should learn it by the book.

I still do not see how you're correcting for the crosswind. Unless a wing is low you're not redirecting the lift vector in the direction of the crosswind which is what is required to counter the lateral drift. Regardless of the crossed controls, you're still going to be drifting along in the air mass that's crossing the runway.

Done with precision none of this has to be extreme....unless it's a really extreme crosswind.

 

[lr60plt]

If you step on the right rudder and input an amount of left aileron to maintain wings level are you not flying in a slip? If you put in more left aileron to drop the left wing aren't you going to also have to put in more right rudder to maintain the direction the nose is pointing? I'm not sure why you think the horizon has anything to do with this. Furthermore, as far as the airplane is concerned, there is no "wind" blowing on it from one side or the other. It only knows that you are flying it in an uncoordinated attitude so that the fuselage is not aligned with the direction you are flying through the air.

"Crab and kick" is no different from what's being discussed here but rather than maintain a slip through the entire final approach you wait until the moment before touchdown and then apply the same identical inputs.

There is no way for you to put both main wheels down STRAIGHT in a crosswind. As mentioned before you have to have some component of horizontal lift to compensate for drift due to wind.

Crab and Kick is completely different from what is being discussed here. Crab and kick is coming in wings level, both mains touch and the nose is "kicked" straight with the rudder. When the mains touch the nose is not straight down the center-line.

What is being discussed here is wing-low crosswind correction.

 

[joycem137]

Don't over-think it. A crosswind landing is no more than banking toward the wind to counteract the drift, then using the rudder to keep the nose pointed down the center of the runway.

Good luck! They'll come with practice.

I just recently did my first solo, and it took forever to figure this out. My instructor kept explaining the control inputs, but I just couldn't keep it straight in my head. Left rudder, right aileron... no left aileron... For... wait... what?

But then one day, I just sort of figured out what was happening on my own. Bank into the wind and keep the nose down the center. Simple! I wish he had said it like that, as it would have saved me a lot of time.

 

[Captain]

I just recently did my first solo, and it took forever to figure this out. My instructor kept explaining the control inputs, but I just couldn't keep it straight in my head. Left rudder, right aileron... no left aileron... For... wait... what?

But then one day, I just sort of figured out what was happening on my own. Bank into the wind and keep the nose down the center. Simple! I wish he had said it like that, as it would have saved me a lot of time.

There is another way to look at this. Sorta like how you always find your lost keys in the last place you look. Well duh, after you find them you stop looking!

Well I submit that sometimes, just possibly, students try and try a maneuver and practice and practice with the CFI saying all sorts of different things to try and help the student grasp whatever it is. And then suddenly after hours and hours the student 'gets it' and says, "well why didn't you just say it like that to start with!?!"

...discounting all the practice that went into learning the skill and also likely only hearing a fraction of what the CFI has said due to tunnel vision.

Point is, just be happy you learned the skill. And after you surpass your CFI in hours, skill, and experience then you can feel free to come back and critique them in their profession... that you pay them for.

 

[joycem137]

There is another way to look at this. Sorta like how you always find your lost keys in the last place you look. Well duh, after you find them you stop looking!

Well I submit that sometimes, just possibly, students try and try a maneuver and practice and practice with the CFI saying all sorts of different things to try and help the student grasp whatever it is. And then suddenly after hours and hours the student 'gets it' and says, "well why didn't you just say it like that to start with!?!"

...discounting all the practice that went into learning the skill and also likely only hearing a fraction of what the CFI has said due to tunnel vision.

Point is, just be happy you learned the skill. And after you surpass your CFI in hours, skill, and experience then you can feel free to come back and critique them in their profession... that you pay them for.

Oh, I don't think I'd ever critique my CFI negatively. He's really good. Or, at least, I'm feeling like I'm learning a lot from him.

 

[txflyer]

Flaps or no flaps? I'll bet you'll get as many opinions as pilots.

My C180G handbook clearly states no flaps on crosswind landings. Some planes do, some don't. And we can't always say fly somewhere else, because there will come a day in every pilots logbook where you must land, you're out of options, and the component is brutal. I've tried it all, and believe me, you don't want any flaps down on a Cessna 180 when you're landing in Hereford Texas on Rwy 20 and the wind is blowing from ~270 degrees gusting to 40mph.

I use the wing low, straight with the centerline on short final method. For a taildragger, or any airplane really, this method puts you in the position you will be in upon landing. This also allows you time to see if you cannot hold centerline on short final, then you know what's going to happen beforehand. The crab method is more work and there's an element of the unknown to it. You must straighten out, flare, acquire the centerline and the ground all at once. And if the component was too strong to hold centerline all along, you just mucked up.

 

[Silvaire]

I still do not see how you're correcting for the crosswind...

The only thing the airplane cares about is relative wind. If you induce a yaw that puts the relative wind off the nose then you are in a slip. If you maintain the wings in a level attitude with opposite aileron you are still in a slip. How it does this has to do with dihedral effect and some airplanes are better at it than others although "better" isn't really a very apt description because it's not necessarily a good trait - everything is a compromise in aerodynamics. I'm flying 60 year old taildraggers so maybe it doesn't work so well in a Cirrus.

 

[zaitcev]

Another good training technique is to fly the plane about 4 or 5 feet AGL over the runway at landing velocity fly the length of the runway without landing.

I think the low pass at the landing speed is a dangerous excercise. Due to the apparent motion the speed seems very high, while it's actually very low, so it's extremely easy to lose the speed control and stall, in particular if the pilot is busy with learning cross-wind control. I saw a video once upon a time where one guy did just that with a CFI onboard. Since they only were a few feet up, they didn't do a fatal lawn dart, but the nosegear collapsed.

 

[alfadog]

I think the low pass at the landing speed is a dangerous excercise. Due to the apparent motion the speed seems very high, while it's actually very low, so it's extremely easy to lose the speed control and stall, in particular if the pilot is busy with learning cross-wind control. I saw a video once upon a time where one guy did just that with a CFI onboard. Since they only were a few feet up, they didn't do a fatal lawn dart, but the nosegear collapsed.

You don't do it 4 or 5 feet over the runway, you do it at about 12 inches. and if you occasionally touch, no big deal. A student would do it with a CFI who would likely manage the power.

 

[JasonM]

Well, thanks again for all the pointers. Going up in a bit to practice. winds forecast about the same today. I'll report back later

 

[bobmrg]

Mental question... Move the maneuver somewhere else away from the runway...

If you level off three miles out on final with the same control inputs, does the airplane go left? Nope. The wind is still pushing it to the right.

Isaac Newton told us that a body in motion will remain in motion unless disturbed. You will not head off into the bushes if you land on the upwind wheel...the airplane will keep going in the same direction as it was going when it touched down.

My paraplegic students landed in crosswinds using this principle.

Bob Gardner

 

[JasonM]

Well, even now knowing what I need to do, I still struggled today. Guess this is just one of those things that's gonna hold me back for a while.

 

[somorris]

Keep practicing JM. Keep in mind the wind is highly variable as you move through the air. It is also variable around buildings, trees, etc. You have to keep flying, using aileron/rudder as needed to keep the airplane like you want it until you get stopped. Landings are the hardest things to consistently do well.

 

[LDJones]

The only thing the airplane cares about is relative wind. If you induce a yaw that puts the relative wind off the nose then you are in a slip. If you maintain the wings in a level attitude with opposite aileron you are still in a slip. How it does this has to do with dihedral effect and some airplanes are better at it than others although "better" isn't really a very apt description because it's not necessarily a good trait - everything is a compromise in aerodynamics. I'm flying 60 year old taildraggers so maybe it doesn't work so well in a Cirrus.

But now your nose is pointed into the wind, which is blowing across the runway so your wheels are not aligned with the runway. I'm still not seeing how what you describe is going to counteract the lateral movement the wind is causing while keeping the nose of the plane pointed down the runway.

Redirecting some lift by banking into the wind is the only thing I'm aware of that will allow you a forward ground track while remaining aligned with the runway via opposite rudder. But I'm always open to learning new techniques if you've to a video demonstrating this method.

 

[lr60plt]

I think he meant the wind is "off the nose" as in the degrees away from the centerline / nose straight down the runway.

It still doesn't make sense though. As long as your wings are level, you are drifting.

 

[JasonM]

Keep practicing JM. Keep in mind the wind is highly variable as you move through the air. It is also variable around buildings, trees, etc. You have to keep flying, using aileron/rudder as needed to keep the airplane like you want it until you get stopped. Landings are the hardest things to consistently do well.

That's all I can do at this point. thanks for the encouragement! :wink2:

 

[JasonM]

these guys doing it all wrong or what?

 

[txflyer]

these guys doing it all wrong or what?

The 180 pilot was doing it kind of the way I do it. Upwind wing low, lots of rudder, straight with the centerline before the threshold. The only thing I would have been doing different is no flaps and I strictly stick with wheelies in bad winds. You want to keep that rudder washed with air and only let it down when you have the brakes and it feels right.

Rudder, Rudder, Rudder ....

Even tailwheel pilots need to remember this constantly. I know I sure do.

 

[LDJones]

these guys doing it all wrong or what?

Wow. That was scary.

 

[Captain]

these guys doing it all wrong or what?

Yup. Doing it wrong. Maybe they were testing the side load capability of Cessna aircraft?

 

[LDJones]

I spent the day doing nothing but crosswind landings with several students since it was about all we could do (700' overcast, 10sm, with a nice, steady crosswind). This thread discussion had me revisiting the FAAs recommendations and I realized I had gotten so comfortable with the crab-then-kick method I hadn't been spending much time on the wing-low method that the FAA seems to prefer. So today we did mostly wing-low for most of final and have to admit it made things seem to click better, at least for these students.

Moral of story: don't get stuck in a rut.

 

[JasonM]

Moral of story: don't get stuck in a rut.

I'm still in the rut , but I am glad I asked the questions on here. How were your students when in the flare? That seems to be my difficult point. I'm 100% until I go to flare, then it seems like I don't know exactly how to control things when at that angle.

 

[alfadog]

I spent the day doing nothing but crosswind landings with several students since it was about all we could do (700' overcast, 10sm, with a nice, steady crosswind). This thread discussion had me revisiting the FAAs recommendations and I realized I had gotten so comfortable with the crab-then-kick method I hadn't been spending much time on the wing-low method that the FAA seems to prefer. So today we did mostly wing-low for most of final and have to admit it made things seem to click better, at least for these students.

Moral of story: don't get stuck in a rut.

I have never used the crab and kick method myself. How does that work in a strong crosswind in a small airplane? Are you adding aileron into the wind as you kick? Do you land wings level?

 

[alfadog]

I'm still in the rut , but I am glad I asked the questions on here. How were your students when in the flare? That seems to be my difficult point. I'm 100% until I go to flare, then it seems like I don't know exactly how to control things when at that angle.

Low pass over the runway at 12 inches in the flare attitude. At first, do it with your instructor and let him handle the power.