Crossing the Atlantic...

Run-Around

Run-Around

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Run-Around
Please excuse me if this is sort of a stupid question, I still don't know my airplanes too well, but theoretically speaking, what is the "cheapest" GA aircraft that could cross the Atlantic ocean (say from NY to Paris). I should add, in relative comfort with a small family and bags (not Lindbergh style). Are there any HP twin turboprops with extended fuel capacity that could make the trip? Or what is the smallest (ie cheapest) jet that could make it? Thanks
 
Anymouse said:
If you're talking non-stop from NY-Paris, there is no such thing as "cheapest." Especially if you're talking comfort.
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Anything you could buy for under 10,000,000 dollars (used, perhaps)?
 
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I think I figured, just as a hypothetical, that I could make it in my Cherokee. PA-28-235, 82 gallons usable fuel.

My hypothetical plan took about 11 legs (coming from Arizona), and the key crossing to Greenland really only works if you're willing to cut reserves to the bare minimum and assume favorable weather holds for the duration of the crossing. (Hint---don't make that assumption; not only is it unwise in general principle, it is also usually untrue in practice, from what I can tell.)

Possible, but if you really want to do it, probably should outfit with long range tanks and extra gear. It also seems to be the case that if you expect to get fuel in Greenland, they have fuel in barrels but you need to bring your own pump. Just so you know.
 
Run-Around said:
Anything you could buy for under 10,000,000 dollars (used)?
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A King Air 350ER could conceivabley do it in two days. I haven't bought any of those this week so I don't know what they're priced at. Not sure about jets either.

But let's look at the math (sort of)...

Jet or TP $10 Million
Fuel $$$$$$$
Maintenance $$$$$$$$
Pilots $$$$
Insurance $$$$$
Annual Flight Safety training $$$
=
A whole hell of a lot of money for an occasional trip across the pond.


You could do a lot of first/business class trips for you and the family for that amount.
 
Anymouse said:
A King Air 350ER could conceivabley do it in two days. I haven't bought any of those this week so I don't know what they're priced at. Not sure about jets either.

But let's look at the math (sort of)...

Jet or TP $10 Million
Fuel $$$$$$$
Maintenance $$$$$$$$
Pilots $$$$
Insurance $$$$$
Annual Flight Safety training $$$
=
A whole hell of a lot of money for an occasional trip across the pond.


You could do a lot of first/business class trips for you and the family for that amount.
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I definitely get your point about the cost thing, for sure. But why 2 days? It seems it might take 11 hours for that airplane (unless you're saying that the range in not able to be upgraded for non-stop operation?).
 
Pick up a used 707 or DC-8. No worries on range. You will need a couple crew.

Anyway, for the occasional trip just charter.
 
I will be crossing in about 12 hours and I heard a 172 out there before. You must remember that you will have to have survival suits for everyone on over water or and rafts etc. With a family? AA, Delta, United or one of many foreign carriers.
 
If you're willing to go used, there are a number of business jets that can do it nonstop for under $10MM. Plenty more if you're willing to stop in Iceland for fuel.

I've done the one stop crossing a few times in various models of Citation.
 
Why would you "need" to do it non-stop?
Do something like Gander, Shannon, Le Bourget. That's about 4 hours across the water and another 1.5 to Paris, in a medium size corporate jet.
 
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I think a Gulfstream II could do it. That's a "cheap jet" these days because of age and efficiency.
 
G200 could do it. Early, low serial number models can be had for below $5M but would likely be maintenance hogs.
 
Run-Around said:
I definitely get your point about the cost thing, for sure. But why 2 days? It seems it might take 11 hours for that airplane (unless you're saying that the range in not able to be upgraded for non-stop operation?).
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Range

Stop in Goose Bay, Iceland and Europe mainland.
 
The non-stop is a big one. If you don't mind making a stop or two, then most GA aircraft can make it, albeit perhaps requiring some special fuel tanks for extended range. I know a gentleman with a Cessna 340 who lives in Germany, but does occasional cross-the-pond hops back and forth, I think once a year or so. But he does make stops on the way, I forget the exact route he takes. And he takes a few days each direction. I do long hauls (cross the USA in a day no problem) but international, it takes longer. Customs, FBO service is slower... stops add a lot of time.

Non-stop, sure plenty of planes you can get for under $10M, but I agree if you have that budget and it's not something you're looking at doing regularly, just charter a Gulfstream/Falcon or fly first class on the airlines.

What are you looking at for a "normal" plane for your mission in terms of cost, capabilities, etc.? I assume you're sitting in back vs. flying yourself?
 
The longest leg on the route with the shortest legs is 450 nautical miles Greenland to Iceland. The route is Baffin Island Canada, Greenland, Iceland, Faroe Islands, Scotland (or Norway).
 
Remember, "GA" is anything other than Part 121 and Part 135....Boeing BBJ is a GA aircraft. Those A380 and B747 owned by mid-east royalty are GA aircraft.
 
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https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/10/the-flying-housewife/381940/
 
Thanks for the advice/opinions guys. This is purely a theoretical question. I fly a balloon and if I had such means I would probably purchase a big helicopter! I was asking for a well-to-do business friend of mine (the kind of friend who is a nice guy, but believes that because I am somehow involved in aviation, I know everything about anything related to transcontinental flight).
 
It also depends on what sort of safety margins you want. Do you mind a wet footprint for a depressurization or a OLE scenario?
 
Run-Around said:
Please excuse me if this is sort of a stupid question, I still don't know my airplanes too well, but theoretically speaking, what is the "cheapest" GA aircraft that could cross the Atlantic ocean (say from NY to Paris). I should add, in relative comfort with a small family and bags (not Lindbergh style). Are there any HP twin turboprops with extended fuel capacity that could make the trip? Or what is the smallest (ie cheapest) jet that could make it? Thanks
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Doesn't have to be a twin or a turbojet. Pilots fly to Europe via Iceland/Greenland fairly regularly. My one-time stockbroker made the trip in his Skylane more than once.

Bob Gardner
 
If you want to cross direct, there are a few twin turboprops that can do it from say Newfoundland to Ireland (about 1600nm). The range king is the Merlin IIIB, it has a range of 2600nm, so does the King Air 350ER. Second is probably a Piper Cheyenne 400LS, they can do about 2400nm. Turbo Commanders can do about 2000nm with the big tanks.
 
stratobee said:
If you want to cross direct, there are a few twin turboprops that can do it from say Newfoundland to Ireland (about 1600nm). The range king is the Merlin IIIB, it has a range of 2600nm, so does the King Air 350ER. Second is probably a Piper Cheyenne 400LS, they can do about 2400nm. Turbo Commanders can do about 2000nm with the big tanks.
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Cheyenne 400 at 2400 miles??? Yikes.

That said, can any of them do it without a wet footprint?
 
Run-Around said:
Thanks for the advice/opinions guys. This is purely a theoretical question. I fly a balloon and if I had such means I would probably purchase a big helicopter! I was asking for a well-to-do business friend of mine (the kind of friend who is a nice guy, but believes that because I am somehow involved in aviation, I know everything about anything related to transcontinental flight).
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Anymouse said:
The balloon might be a cheaper option, although not quite as fast or comfortable.

:D
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coloradobluesky said:
The longest leg on the route with the shortest legs is 450 nautical miles Greenland to Iceland. The route is Baffin Island Canada, Greenland, Iceland, Faroe Islands, Scotland (or Norway).
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I've heard of someone flying a stock M20-C with manual gear and standard 52 gallon tank (no ferry tank or special oil system) using this route, both ways. I also saw a Mooney with a Swiss flag on the tail here in Alabama, it was an E model flown by a retired couple on their 4th or 5th visit to America. They came via Africa and Brazil once, too . . .
 
Grumman Goose. :) :) Enough range to make it on the land-only Greenland/Iceland path if you want, but a much better place to be if something happens and you can't finish one of those legs as planned!

Oh, wait... you said "cheapest." Nevermind. :)
 
19 hours is more than twice as long as I want to be in the air without a break. Speaking only for myself, but legs that long are both unpleasant and unsafe, so... why?
 
I met a fellow a few years ago who had been ferrying a few Commander turboprops from Greece to Arizona. I believe they were Commander 690s and it took a few days each way. He did the Canada, Greenland, Iceland, Scotland route. Looks like a used Commander 690 will set you back in the neighborhood of half a mil.
 
deyoung said:
19 hours is more than twice as long as I want to be in the air without a break. Speaking only for myself, but legs that long are both unpleasant and unsafe, so... why?
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Distances in the Pacific are long, with nowhere else to land. Seems most earthrounders take ~14 hours from California to Hawaii, and that's only a third of the way across . . . or about the same as NY to LA, with nithing but water outside . . .
 
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