Cross midfield to downwind

joycem137

joycem137

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Robin
Flew out of KSQL today, first flight with a new club. Lots of weird departures and arrivals that I'm unfamiliar with there. I was wondering if folks could give me a bit of information on the approach.

When I came from the south west, they asked me to cross midfield at or above 1200, then enter the right downwind for 30.

The question is... after crossing the field, do I turn right and descent to TPA, or do I do a "teardrop" entry? (extend out past the downwind, then turn left and enter the downwind on the right 45)? I did the former, after clarifying with tower, but I'm always thinking back and wondering if I did the right thing after the fact. :)

What's interesting is that the instructor that checked me out with the new club last week told me about the teardrop entry being a good one, though I think that was specifically in the context of an uncontrolled airport. (E16)

So what do you think about teardrop vs. direct midfield -> downwind entries in general, and specifically at SQL?
 
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One ply or two ply. Just use your judgement, if there is no one else in the pattern just go straight into it, if its packed that teardrop might be a good idea.

If its towered just do what the tower asks you to do (as long as its safe).
 
Judging from their noise abatement handout, a 90 degree turn to downwind is the appropriate entry.
 
I would keep it simple,jet enter the right downwind after crossing the field. Unless the tower gives other instructions.
 
If the tower controller asks to make cross midfield and enter the right downwind for 30, turn right to the downwind leg. They are NOT expecting you to make a left 270 degree turn or teardrop, or whatever you want to call it. Instructors teach those maneuvers for the supposed purpose of increasing traffic situational awareness in the pattern (which I personally consider unnecessary maneuvering) of a non towered field.
 
I normally do that entry at pattern altitude and just turn downwind. I think it is one of the safest provided everyone knows that it is a left or right pattern. All bets are off if both left and right patterns are utilized.
 
joycem137 said:
Flew out of KSQL today, first flight with a new club. Lots of weird departures and arrivals that I'm unfamiliar with there. I was wondering if folks could give me a bit of information on the approach.

When I came from the south west, they asked me to cross midfield at or above 1200, then enter the right downwind for 30.

The question is... after crossing the field, do I turn right and descent to TPA, or do I do a "teardrop" entry? (extend out past the downwind, then turn left and enter the downwind on the right 45)? I did the former, after clarifying with tower, but I'm always thinking back and wondering if I did the right thing after the fact. :)

What's interesting is that the instructor that checked me out with the new club last week told me about the teardrop entry being a good one, though I think that was specifically in the context of an uncontrolled airport. (E16)

So what do you think about teardrop vs. direct midfield -> downwind entries in general, and specifically at SQL?
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For uncontrolled the AIM calls for a +500 foot PA midfield cross then teardrop on a 45 into traffic downwind in use.

In practice, you rarely see the teardrop, and often see people crossing midfield at or below PA. It's dangerous, but they do it anyway.

And you also see people exiting the pattern on a 90 instead of a 45 which is also dangerous and rude.

For ATC, do what they instruct. If they say teardrop, do a teardrop. If they say call base, keep flying. If they say no entry, hold...do that...
 
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CTLSi said:
The AIM calls for a +500 foot PA midfield cross then teardrop on a 45 into traffic downwind in use.

In practice, you rarely see the teardrop, and often see people crossing midfield at or below PA. It's dangerous, but they do it anyway.

And you also see people exiting the pattern on a 90 instead of a 45 which is also dangerous and rude.
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The OP was at an airport with a tower so the teardrop does not apply.

joycem137 said:
When I came from the south west, they asked me to cross midfield at or above 1200, then enter the right downwind for 30.
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In this case you would do exactly what it seems like you would do. Cross midfield at or above 1200 and make a right turn into the downwind, descending to TPA..
 
Since this is a towered field, do what they tell you to do. Cross at 1200', then enter right downwind.
 
CTLSi said:
For uncontrolled the AIM calls for a +500 foot PA midfield cross then teardrop on a 45 into traffic downwind in use.

In practice, you rarely see the teardrop, and often see people crossing midfield at or below PA. It's dangerous, but they do it anyway.
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I have flown from KRNO to KRTS (Reno to Stead) probably more than 100 times, with 3 different CFIs and all of them have had us approach from the south, cross perpendicular to the main E/W runway, then turn 90 degrees to enter the downwind (left pattern for 8, right pattern for 26).

If the pattern is busy I have done the "cross at TP+500 and teardrop around to enter on a 45", but 90% of the time the pattern is empty or just one other plane and we just turn directly into the downwind at mid-field.

I did it this way throughout my training and do it this way still. I don't know if that is just the "locals" way or not.
 
When Tower tells you to turn to downwind, you turn to downwind. Not to the 45. Unless you think there is a safety reason not to -- then you tell Tower "unable."

I'm a little surprised you never got that entry at PAO. They do it when arriving from over Stanford and the spacing between left traffic for 31 and straight-ins or instrument approaches doesn't work.

The 45 is a better entry at an uncontrolled field, even with a teardrop, as it's a whole lot easier for other traffic to see you. You can ask Tower for it if you would prefer, but at SQL, I'd think Class B is going to put a damper on that plan. At PAO, you're likely to get rear-ended from traffic coming in from Train Bridge, and it puts you out over the Bay at low altitude when it isn't necessary.
 
DesertNomad said:
If the pattern is busy I have done the "cross at TP+500 and teardrop around to enter on a 45", but 90% of the time the pattern is empty or just one other plane and we just turn directly into the downwind at mid-field.
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Talking just non-towered airports here...

I think the idea is to try not to descend into the pattern from above.

That can and has led to low wings descending onto high wings.

The normal recommendation is after overflying, to pass well clear of the pattern for the descent to pattern altitude, then joining midfield at a 45° angle at pattern altitude.

I would say I do that at least 95% of the time. It's that rare for me to have an articulable reason not to do it.
 
When I have done the "cross mid-field, then turn 90 degrees to join the downwind", I am at TPA before crossing midfield. So arriving from the south, with the TP on the north side of the E/W runway, I get to TPA about 1 mile south of the runway, and simply stay at that altitude with radio calls usually at 5 miles south, 1 mile south and while turning to the downwind.

I never descend into the downwind from above.
 
DesertNomad said:
When I have done the "cross mid-field, then turn 90 degrees to join the downwind", I am at TPA before crossing midfield. So arriving from the south, with the TP on the north side of the E/W runway, I get to TPA about 1 mile south of the runway, and simply stay at that altitude with radio calls usually at 5 miles south, 1 mile south and while turning to the downwind.

I never descend into the downwind from above.
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You should NEVER cross midfield at TPA. And you should try to avoid dropping into downwind from a midfield cross. You present a hazard to everyone if you do either.

Consider the poor guy on his downwind and you appear in the corner of his eye coming at him at TPA crossing midfield? Or the guy on short field takeoff gaining altitude mid field and there you are skirting in front of him? Or worse, you turn into downwind while someone else is coming into midfield on a 45 from the downwind side and you jump in front of them? I have seen all of this and worse. It's tiring to watch, and tiring to see people insist they are fine doing all of it.
 
CTLSi said:
You should NEVER cross midfield at TPA. And you should try to avoid dropping into downwind from a midfield cross. You present a hazard to everyone if you do either.

Consider the poor guy on his downwind and you appear in the corner of his eye coming at him at TPA crossing midfield? Or the guy on short field takeoff gaining altitude mid field and there you are skirting in front of him? Or worse, you turn into downwind while someone else is coming into midfield on a 45 from the downwind side and you jump in front of them? I have seen all of this and worse. It's tiring to watch, and tiring to see people insist they are fine doing all of it.
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Do you actually have a pilot license? Of any sort? Or have you even started training??

Seriously?
 
CTLSi said:
You should NEVER cross midfield at TPA. And you should try to avoid dropping into downwind from a midfield cross. You present a hazard to everyone if you do either.

Consider the poor guy on his downwind and you appear in the corner of his eye coming at him at TPA crossing midfield? Or the guy on short field takeoff gaining altitude mid field and there you are skirting in front of him? Or worse, you turn into downwind while someone else is coming into midfield on a 45 from the downwind side and you jump in front of them? I have seen all of this and worse. It's tiring to watch, and tiring to see people insist they are fine doing all of it.
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Using absolutes like "NEVER", are rarely accurate. Your statement is not an exception.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Do you actually have a pilot license? Of any sort? Or have you even started training??

Seriously?
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Well, if he's strictly talking uncontrolled airports I whole-heartily agree with him. Crashing the downwind from the inside is as stupid, discourteous and dangerous as descending into it from above. The rule for aircraft approaching to land at an airport applies to approaching the whole airport (it says "at an airport" not "at the part of the airport most desirous to land on in the impatient opinion of the pilot"). It doesn't make sense to interpret it in any other way.
EDIT: IOW, go around it, not over it.

dtuuri
 
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dtuuri said:
Well, if he's strictly talking uncontrolled airports I whole-heartily agree with him. Crashing the downwind from the inside is as stupid, discourteous and dangerous as descending into it from above. The rule for aircraft approaching to land at an airport applies to approaching the whole airport (it says "at an airport" not "at the part of the airport most desirous to land on in the impatient opinion of the pilot"). It doesn't make sense to interpret it in any other way.
EDIT: IOW, go around it, not over it.

dtuuri
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Yes, I understand. It's his statement in it's entirety I'm questioning.
 
CTLSi said:
You should NEVER cross midfield at TPA. And you should try to avoid dropping into downwind from a midfield cross. You present a hazard to everyone if you do either.

Consider the poor guy on his downwind and you appear in the corner of his eye coming at him at TPA crossing midfield? Or the guy on short field takeoff gaining altitude mid field and there you are skirting in front of him? Or worse, you turn into downwind while someone else is coming into midfield on a 45 from the downwind side and you jump in front of them? I have seen all of this and worse. It's tiring to watch, and tiring to see people insist they are fine doing all of it.
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Read the OP. the TOWER directed the mid field cross and the altitude and the instruction to turn directly to the downwind. Follow the towers direction, unless you see a hazard, then advise the tower why you'd rather not do as they say.

I had the tower "I'll call your base". When they called for me to turn base, I responded that I could not, as I had an RC aircraft inside my turn in formation on me. Tower responded that the local constabulary were responding to the area.
 
RotorAndWing said:
It gets worse?? :rolleyes:

From reading his drivel one could assume he is a MS Flightsim pilot, at best. God help us if he actually flies. :nonod:
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Subsequent posts reminded me that this thread involved an ATC instruction at a towered field.

As such, CTLSi's admonitions were typically off-base.

So kindly disregard my defense of him - I don't know what I was thinking.
 
dtuuri said:
Well, if he's strictly talking uncontrolled airports I whole-heartily agree with him. Crashing the downwind from the inside is as stupid, discourteous and dangerous as descending into it from above. The rule for aircraft approaching to land at an airport applies to approaching the whole airport (it says "at an airport" not "at the part of the airport most desirous to land on in the impatient opinion of the pilot"). It doesn't make sense to interpret it in any other way.
EDIT: IOW, go around it, not over it.

dtuuri
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First of all the OP's question was about entering the pattern at a controlled airport where he had been directed to do so. (FWIW, CTLSi isn't the only one on this thread who seems to have missed that). Second, that's exactly the "proper" way to enter the pattern of an uncontrolled airport in Canada so I strongly suspect it's not as "stupid, discourteous, and dangerous" as you say unless a lot more midairs occur in Canada at non-towered fields. Of course, it's likely that Canadian pilots aren't quite as blind to traffic coming at them from the direction of the runway they're in the pattern for so that might skew the results a bit.

Having said that I generally don't cross mid-field at pattern altitude to enter the downwind from the other side of the airport. My SOP in that case is to cross (at pattern alt) on a close in crosswind. That gives me a good view of potential conflicting traffic including any coming off the runway along with plenty of room to maneuver so as to avoid any traffic I see.

I'm also completely opposed to the FAA recommended procedure of overflying above the pattern, making a 225° turn to join the downwind on a 45. There are so many problems with this concept that I can't see why the FAA still pushes it.
 
joycem137 said:
Flew out of KSQL today, first flight with a new club. Lots of weird departures and arrivals that I'm unfamiliar with there. I was wondering if folks could give me a bit of information on the approach.

When I came from the south west, they asked me to cross midfield at or above 1200, then enter the right downwind for 30.

The question is... after crossing the field, do I turn right and descent to TPA, or do I do a "teardrop" entry?
Click to expand...
The first -- turn right and descend to TPA. If they wanted you to cross over the top, depart the pattern area, turn around, and come back, they'd tell you that.

However, I will say in 45 years and 10,000 hours, I've never received an ATC instruction like that, so I might be a bit confused by it, too, and would also have asked for clarification. But I'd try to be as diplomatic as I could be about it -- you definitely would not hear me say, "Tower, 22RL, you want me to do what?" (even if that's the thought that went through my mind). :D
 
CTLSi said:
You should NEVER cross midfield at TPA. And you should try to avoid dropping into downwind from a midfield cross. You present a hazard to everyone if you do either.
Click to expand...

 
Here's a great article on traffic patterns titled "The 45 Degree Zealots."
http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182100-1.html?redirected=1

I'm not saying this will change any minds here, but the thought put into this was based on a lifetime of flying experience from a professional pilot. At one point Deakin states that he could make the argument that the 45 entry could actually be the entry that violates the FAR's. Again, thought provoking read while thoroughly entertaining. Enjoy.
 
Ron Levy said:
However, I will say in 45 years and 10,000 hours, I've never received an ATC instruction like that, so I might be a bit confused by it, too, and would also have asked for clarification. :D
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Ron,

Approaching Opa Locka from the NW in its heyday, it was common in a north operation to hear something like...

"Cessna 12345, report overhead the center of the airport at 1,500, expect right downwind runway 36R"

Is that what you mean? It may not be common, but I would not find it confusing.

Agree that under tower control, one would just turn to downwind as appropriate. But regardless of pilot experience, if not 100% sure, best to ask for clarification. I find the more experience a pilot has, the more likely he or she is to ask for clarification when required.
 
Ron Levy said:
He does -- PP-ASEL, earned in a Flight Design CTLSi two months ago. The person who needs his head examined is the DPE who signed that ticket.
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I will never again accuse you of not having a sense of humor Mr. Levy! That one made me laugh out loud.

Kudos. :)
 
gismo said:
First of all the OP's question was about entering the pattern at a controlled airport where he had been directed to do so. (FWIW, CTLSi isn't the only one on this thread who seems to have missed that). Second, that's exactly the "proper" way to enter the pattern of an uncontrolled airport in Canada so I strongly suspect it's not as "stupid, discourteous, and dangerous" as you say unless a lot more midairs occur in Canada at non-towered fields. Of course, it's likely that Canadian pilots aren't quite as blind to traffic coming at them from the direction of the runway they're in the pattern for so that might skew the results a bit.

Having said that I generally don't cross mid-field at pattern altitude to enter the downwind from the other side of the airport. My SOP in that case is to cross (at pattern alt) on a close in crosswind. That gives me a good view of potential conflicting traffic including any coming off the runway along with plenty of room to maneuver so as to avoid any traffic I see.

I'm also completely opposed to the FAA recommended procedure of overflying above the pattern, making a 225° turn to join the downwind on a 45. There are so many problems with this concept that I can't see why the FAA still pushes it.
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While I agree with your second two paragraphs (that's why I'm quoting them again :)) your Canadian remarks don't take into consideration that in Canada the US entry and Canadian midfield entry are only permitted at airports where two-way radio communications are required. At airports that are open to non-radio traffic, i.e., like "uncontrolled" US airports, only the midfield entry is allowed. The two kinds of approaches to the downwind leg are incompatible unless the parties involved are coordinating their arrivals via radio. In Canada, two aircraft arriving at the same airport at the same time is reason to celebrate--there is very little air traffic up there. :)

dtuuri
 
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LDJones said:
FAR citation?
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"At an MF airport (not an MFA airport), there is a ground station through whom radio broadcasts are directed, and the rules for joining the circuit are more flexible to facilitate aircraft manoeuvring for landing after performing an instrument approach—pilots may join the circuit straight-in on the final or base legs, at a 45° angle to the downwind leg, or in addition to the procedures prescribed for ATF airports."​

This is the best I can do: http://www.langleyflyingschool.com/Pages/Canadian Aviation Regulations.html

I'm sure somebody else can find it in the official Canadian pubs faster than I can.

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
"At an MF airport (not an MFA airport), there is a ground station through whom radio broadcasts are directed, and the rules for joining the circuit are more flexible to facilitate aircraft manoeuvring for landing after performing an instrument approach—pilots may join the circuit straight-in on the final or base legs, at a 45° angle to the downwind leg, or in addition to the procedures prescribed for ATF airports."​

This is the best I can do: http://www.langleyflyingschool.com/Pages/Canadian Aviation Regulations.html

I'm sure somebody else can find it in the official Canadian pubs faster than I can.

dtuuri
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I'm looking for the U.S. FAR for the rule you cited. You said in the U.S. only midfield entry is allowed. I haven't found that in the FARs.
 
LDJones said:
I'm looking for the U.S. FAR for the rule you cited. You said in the U.S. only midfield entry is allowed. I haven't found that in the FARs.
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I did not say that. I was talking about the type of Canadian airports that are comparable to uncontrolled US airports.

dtuuri
 
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LDJones said:
I misread your post (twice!) My apologies.
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No problem, it gave me a chance to remind myself why I don't like Canadian procedures: They're far too complicated! I found the link to their AIM: https://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents/ca-publications/5_RAC_E.pdf

The pertinent paragraph is 4.5.2(a)(vi). Canadians make a science out of entering the traffic pattern, er "circuit", unlike our own very elegant 91.126 and our single official "recommendation" in the AIM. In view of the many creative entries espoused in these forums in lieu of simply circling the field (whole field) to join the traffic pattern or entering downwind on a 45°, I wonder if our citizens are up to operating properly in Canada? Any Canadians care to opine? :dunno:

dtuuri
 
The problem with making a "teardrop" manuver following a midfield crossing to enter downwind on a 45* is that it has you flying head-on to traffic on a wide downwind unless you go out WAAAAAAY beyond the airport. What you in your Skyhawk or Cherokee visualize as outside the traffic pattern might be the same distance that the guy in the Citation or the Lear would fly the downwind leg :hairraise:
Better I think following a midfield crossing is just to join the downwind or else join the upwind on the near side and fly the full pattern including upwind > crosswind > downwind > base & final.
 
peerlesscowboy said:
What you in your Skyhawk or Cherokee visualize as outside the traffic pattern might be the same distance that the guy in the Citation or the Lear would fly the downwind leg :hairraise:
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… which is why you do it 500 feet above the highest pattern altitude. Descend on the 45. Take it out far enough so you can do that (it doesn't take that much).

In a high wing, you can get a good look at the downwind traffic around the end of the teardrop. In a low wing, it's in a different place.
 
FastEddieB said:
Talking just non-towered airports here...

I think the idea is to try not to descend into the pattern from above.

That can and has led to low wings descending onto high wings.

The normal recommendation is after overflying, to pass well clear of the pattern for the descent to pattern altitude, then joining midfield at a 45° angle at pattern altitude.

I would say I do that at least 95% of the time. It's that rare for me to have an articulable reason not to do it.
Click to expand...

I usually do this as well, but it does have its own problems. To make sure you are really well clear of any traffic in the pattern, you have to go quite far out. Otherwise halfway through your turn you could be nose-to-nose with another airplane on a downwind. At my home airfield we have twins sometimes flying downwind well more than a mile from the runway. To be safe on that entry I usually go 2.5+ miles out, which is a long way to fly back.

Also, since I fly a high wing, that 270° descending turn gives limited visibility for a *long* time. I don't love that.

I think I've come to the conclusion that there is no "great, super safe" way to enter a pattern, especially if it's busy. Every method has dangers.
 
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