Credit Counseling - help?

[Be nice, regular member]

It has recently come to light that a family member(s) is in very dire straits. Credit card debt around 100K with a monthly payment running 3500 dollars. Mortgage not underwater but they only have about 15-20% equity in the house. Equity would not even remotely cover the credit card debt were they to sell the house nor would a home equity loan make a dent. Not that they need even more credit. The good news is that they own their cars outright and don't have any other debt/monthly payments - it's all concentrated on cards, and the mortgage.

They actually do want to sell the home to pay down the CC. I'm not sure this is a good idea although their mortgage payment is 2100 dollars. This is because the estimated CC debt after sale would still run north of 50K, and then no home and probably no chance of a new mortgage - which would make them renters. However, would renting be a lot cheaper than owning, unclear but probably yes.

Questions:

If they go through formal credit counseling, what is a likely outcome? Are these companies a scam, or do they actually lower your monthly payment significantly? Do they press the person to tap family members for cash? (nonstarter) Can these counseling companies "bargain" the CC companies to accept 60-75 cents on the dollar, for instance?

What if they decide to stop paying the monthly payments (no credit counseling). Six months times 3500 bucks is 21000 dollars which would pay off one of the cards... and perhaps after that things would have movement. They could bargain themselves with the credit card companies. How aggressive are credit card companies and how much damage can they do if they sue you and how long will it take before they sue? A bad credit rating is the least of their worries, in part due to their age, so I am mostly asking about garnishment or other damage. Can they take things from you?

 

[AdamZ]

Your family member finds themselves in a situation that a good number my firm's client's find themselves. My partner is a bankruptcy attorney who gets similar questions numerous times per week. A good number of people honorably try to pay off the debt the best they can and often make decisions that are detrimental to theirs and their families financial interest.

Federal law since I think 2005 or so required that all bankruptcy filers undergo financial counseling but the referral to the counseling service comes from the attorney. There are too many "counseling" companies or "debt relief" companies out there that don't do squat. Many do take your money but I am not impressed at all with their results. They say they will negotiate the debt but keep in mind they are not attorneys and there is NOTHING that obligates the creditor to accept the proposed terms like they must do when the debtor files bankruptcy. My partner pull a lot of people out of the fire who have paid thousands to counseling companies only to later be told gee sorry but Creditor X won't cut your balance or accept payments.

Your family member would be much better served by consulting with a qualified and experienced bankruptcy attorney in your area very often the attorneys fees are less that what one might pay those other companies that profess to give you debt relief. There is a possibility that through bankruptcy your relative can eliminate their unsecured debt ( credit cards etc.) and still keep their home and automobiles especially if elimination of the unsecured debt will enable them to keep paying the mortgage.

Get your family member to a bankruptcy attorney not a debt relief company. Best of Luck.

 

[Geico266]

You need to seek advice of a lawyer and consider bankruptcy. They could do a chapter 13 reorganization and negotiate reduced liabilities with the creditors. The crazy interest rates will stop so principle can be paid.

They can keep the house and cars in most cases.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

Research personal bankruptcy in their state. Formal credit counseling with a non- profit provider is required by law. They may or may not be able to discharge debt based on assets and income, but they may get some legal protection and time to reorganize.

 

[Unregistered]

Thank you, I will pass on the advice.

The person in question is very stubborn and may not take it, so, to steel for the worst: if they stop paying the CC, what could happen?

 

[TMetzinger]

Then they'll need to see an attorney to deal with the legal issues caused by their failure to pay their debts. Far better for them to be the ones who start the process, rather than the creditors.

 

[Greebo]

I deal with this kind of thing regularly - your family members are not alone.

It has recently come to light that a family member(s) is in very dire straits. Credit card debt around 100K with a monthly payment running 3500 dollars. Mortgage not underwater but they only have about 15-20% equity in the house.

Important missing information:
- Income

If they have the income they can get out of this on their own with severe lifestyle changes. If they don't, then they have to take a different course of action. Without knowing the income, it's impossible to decide.

Equity would not even remotely cover the credit card debt were they to sell the house nor would a home equity loan make a dent. Not that they need even more credit.

There is never a good reason to turn non-secured short term debt into secured long term debt. $1,000 at 15% may cost $150 a month until its paid off, which should be 1-5 years : max $750 but at 4% over 30 years it's $3,313.50. Plus you've taken debt which in an emergency can be potentially discharged without penalty (well - bk is penalty enough...) but on a house you attach it to the roof over your head.

They actually do want to sell the home to pay down the CC. I'm not sure this is a good idea although their mortgage payment is 2100 dollars. This is because the estimated CC debt after sale would still run north of 50K, and then no home and probably no chance of a new mortgage - which would make them renters.

Big whoop. If they can't afford the house on their income they can't afford it. Renting is NOT a waste of money - its a roof over your head.

If they go through formal credit counseling, what is a likely outcome? Are these companies a scam, or do they actually lower your monthly payment significantly?

Very few are legit. None can do for you anything you cannot do on your own. Those who say they can are scams.

What if they decide to stop paying the monthly payments (no credit counseling).

On the house or on the cards?

On the house would be stupid - they'd put their shelter at risk for the sake of non-secured debt.

BUT - the CC companies will SCREAM BLOODY MURDER if they stop paying the CC companies, so they need to be prepared to handle the hate calls. CC collectors violate federal law on a daily basis when it comes to collection practices - its nasty - but it may be their only viable choice.

How aggressive are credit card companies

extremely - unlawfully so quite often

and how much damage can they do if they sue you

Not much - if you do get sued THEN You think bankruptcy

and how long will it take before they sue?

4-6 months on average depending on the size of the individual debt

so I am mostly asking about garnishment or other damage. Can they take things from you? [/B]

If you have something to take, yes.

I recommend they read "The Total Money Makeover" by Dave Ramsey and if you really want to help them, sign them up for Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace University. It's only about $100 and it's an invaluable course on managing money, handling creditors, paying off debt, and it'll put them in with people who are or have been in similar situations and give them moral support.

More information is needed to determine a plausible course of action:
- What is their monthly take home pay
- What are the individual debts - amounts and interest rates
- What is the total balance of the mortgage and terms (duration, interest rate, when they took it out)

 

[Greebo]

Then they'll need to see an attorney to deal with the legal issues caused by their failure to pay their debts. Far better for them to be the ones who start the process, rather than the creditors.

They don't need to do this yet. They do need to do this if they get sued. They may be able to avoid it, depending on their complete status.

 

[Greebo]

Thank you, I will pass on the advice.

The person in question is very stubborn and may not take it, so, to steel for the worst: if they stop paying the CC, what could happen?

You cannot help those who will not help themselves. If they are determined to do what they want without considering your advice, do not waste your time continuing to give it. Otherwise you will get sucked in to their disaster.

If they stop paying the cc they will get threatening phone calls at all hours, they will be lied to, told the police are on the way, told a garnishment has been issued (without a hearing), told they've already lost a suit, and so forth.

It will get very very ugly. If they aren't prepared for how to handle it, they will cave and make their situation worse.

 

[TMetzinger]

They don't need to do this yet. They do need to do this if they get sued. They may be able to avoid it, depending on their complete status.

That's more or less what I said. If they don't take the advice, and wait for the train to go off the rails, then eventually they will need an attorney to deal with the consequences.

 

[Greebo]

You're right - I missed the "then" in the start of your post. Apologies.

 

[TMetzinger]

No worries.

 

[Unregistered]

Thanks again everyone

I don't expect them to do something dishonorable, just trying to understand all options. Phone calls day and night would probably be enough to dissuade them.

 

[wsuffa]

Good advice here, though reading between the lines I think there may be a little more here than meets the eye.

A couple of notes beyond the advice already given:

1) Unless other family members are co-signers on the debt, there is no recourse against other family members. If the debt is co-signed, then the crediitors can (and will) go after all signers on the debt. (One good reason to not co-sign on any debt). Default will adversely impact all signers.
1a) if other family members provide money, they will not (usually) be sucked in by the lenders, unless they co-sign the loans. It would be a good idea to draw up a personal note between family members to set the business terms: a huge majority of family problems (between spouses or between brother/sister/parent) are caused by money. This is a business deal regardless of how much you love them.
2) In that same light, spouses may be liable for the debt depending on the state laws, the signers of the account, and venue chosen by the credit company in the contract.
3) Many credit counseling services are scams, others are associated in some fashion with the lenders. Good research is necessary - it may pay to consult a good bankruptcy attorney to find out which are legit and which are scams (combined with other research resources).
4) Chuck's suggestion of Dave Ramsey is a good one. Many, many folks swear by him. If you can, listen to his radio show a couple of times.... it'll open your eyes to how many others are in similar straights, and it'll give you some idea of a method that DOES work. Yes, the spiritual message can be it of a turn-off, but put that aside and listen to the financial message.
5) If there are kids involved - and there often are - it complicates things. For one, you want them to learn the right lessons (including TANSTAAFL), while at the same time you want to make sure they are taken care of. This is one area where other family members can help... a lot.
6) Whether through bankruptcy or a method like Ramsey's there WILL be a lot of sacrifice. Assuming (since the word "they" is used) that there is a marriage, there will be strain. Both MUST be on the same page. Divorce complicates things - if there is any hint of that, my recommendation would be to consult an attorney to fully understand the rights and responsibilities of the two folks involved. If there are kids involved, it becomes more painful and complex. (This area is more complex... and involves both social and credit counseling).
7) While bankruptcy usually protects the primary home and modes of transport, you've mentioned the possibility of selling the house. If they do that, what are their options? Remember that many rental properties do credit checks, so living options may be very llimited.
8) If they won't accept that they need to take personal responsibility, tough love is needed. Guilt is a powerful emotion. Some folks have to hit rock bottom before they can accept that they need to make major changes. Giving money, no strings attached, creates more of a dependency.

 

[Unregistered]

ps. One thing I just remembered they told me:

Part of the reason their mortgage is so high is because their interest rate is 7%. Apparently they haven't tried to refi at all in the past several years because that seems high. They are making all of their payments including CC, not late yet, but it's by the skin of their teeth.

If they could refi to the current 3% I would imagine their mortgage would drop by at least 500 bucks.

There is no chance of that happening, now, but is that possible if they had an attorney go to bat for them with counseling/negotiating of CC debt to a more manageable level? Or is credit counseling an immediate huge ding on your rating?

 

[Unregistered]

Thank you Bill.

 

[AggieMike88]

Another vote for Dave Ramsey.

After starting with him in 2008, I quickly disposed of over $33k of debt and now have 3 times that in cash emergency fund and other assets. If it wasn't for his basic and sound financial principals, I wouldn't be able to afford flying and now be saving toward aircraft ownership.

Dealing with family member debt sucks since you have to deal with the pride and emotions of someone you love and their stubbornness. It's gonaa be vey much like the poopy diaper that they won't change --- sure it stinks to high heaven, but it's squishy, it's warm, and it's theirs.

Going formal on terms to help them is good advice. A boundary is needed less you and others get sucked into the mess too.

Dave Ramsey has counselors on staff at his HQ to talk to, and some in your area for repat visits. It may be worth a call to 888.227.3223 for more info.

 

[wsuffa]

ps. One thing I just remembered they told me:

Part of the reason their mortgage is so high is because their interest rate is 7%. Apparently they haven't tried to refi at all in the past several years because that seems high. They are making all of their payments including CC, not late yet, but it's by the skin of their teeth.

If they could refi to the current 3% I would imagine their mortgage would drop by at least 500 bucks.

There is no chance of that happening, now, but is that possible if they had an attorney go to bat for them with counseling/negotiating of CC debt to a more manageable level? Or is credit counseling an immediate huge ding on your rating?

Feh. $500 is a fair amount of money, but given the current debt load, I think you're right that they probably couldn't refi. From the bank's perspective, they're high risk and as such warrant a higher rate.

Counseling in and of itself shouldn't ding the record. Depending on how the debt is renegotiated, it may or may not ding the record. Expect that it will.

Default, slow-pay, no-pay, or bankruptcy will negatively effect the credit rating. My guess is that their credit rating is in the tank anyway due to the amount of debt. You can always find out - they're entitled to one free credit report per year under Federal law, but they may have to pay for credit score. (Side note: make sure they go to the official web site to make the request, some companies that advertise "free credit reports" are either scams or try very hard to upsell.) Ever since I had an identity theft incident years ago (first a hotel front desk, then later stolen credit cards/passport) I've maintained a pay-for credit monitoring that gives me my reports and scores on a monthly basis. Well worth it.

One other thing: the mortgage rate - even at 7% - is much lower than the rates on the credit cards. Reducing the credit card balance (and/or rate) will make far more difference than reducing the mortgage rate. BUT, if the person doesn't have the willpower to stop spending, then reducing the credit card balance may encourage them to spend more.

 

[wsuffa]

Dave Ramsey has counselors on staff at his HQ to talk to, and some in your area for repat visits. It may be worth a call to 888.227.3223 for more info.

This is a great suggestion. I didn't realize he did that. This is one good resource for finding non-scam providers.

 

[AggieMike88]

Would they both take on 2nd and perhaps 3rd jobs? Are the willing to live on a strict no frills and no fun budget for as long as it takes?

As Greebo said, income is the key and the bggest part of a debt killing plan. The other is "living like no one else so that one day you can really live like no one else", meaning a very strict budget of no cable, no frills, no eating out, no vacations, and such union the debt is killed and a big emergency fund is created.

 

[rpadula]

ps. One thing I just remembered they told me:

Part of the reason their mortgage is so high is because their interest rate is 7%. Apparently they haven't tried to refi at all in the past several years because that seems high. They are making all of their payments including CC, not late yet, but it's by the skin of their teeth.

If they could refi to the current 3% I would imagine their mortgage would drop by at least 500 bucks.

There is no chance of that happening, now, but is that possible if they had an attorney go to bat for them with counseling/negotiating of CC debt to a more manageable level? Or is credit counseling an immediate huge ding on your rating?

Refinancing would be a huge help. Rates are dirt cheap right now.

Why do you say there is no chance of that happening now? If I'm reading correctly, they may have 15-20% equity in the house (good) and they are not yet late on their CC's. Am I missing something? Perhaps their accumulated debt load is too high? Do they know their credit score? If not, pay the 35 bucks to get it and start the refi process pronto, no?

 

[Greebo]

If they have no dings on their credit now and they have equity, finding a bank to refinance them WITH NO EXTRA CASH OUT should be a no-brainer. (It may be a different bank, shop around)

Lowering the interest rate protects the interest of the bank who wants to get repaid. In a BK or FK, the bank stands to lose more than if they work with the customer.

 

[wsuffa]

If they have no dings on their credit now and they have equity, finding a bank to refinance them WITH NO EXTRA CASH OUT should be a no-brainer. (It may be a different bank, shop around)

Lowering the interest rate protects the interest of the bank who wants to get repaid. In a BK or FK, the bank stands to lose more than if they work with the customer.

Agree, no harm in asking. But get credit report first.

But most lending institutions will look at total debt load & outstanding balance. The vast majority of loans are sold to Fannie or Freddie - their requirements are tougher than they used to be. ANd common -sense doesn't always apply, a lot of banks will not refi if finances look shaky.

Also need to look at total cost of refi, out-of-pocket. If they have to borrow money to refi, then the deal doesn't become as good.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Refinance the mortgage, if their cars are crap, buy new econo boxes while they have credit. Stop paying the CC. Life goes on.

 

[jason]

I'm with Chuck. I agree with pretty much everything that he has contributed to this thread.

 

[Steve Foley]

If they qualify for a Chapter 7 bankruptcy, it's possible (depending on their state) to discharge their unsecured debt without affecting their home.

They're looking to protect about $50,000 in equity in their home. In Massachusetts, a couple can protect $500,000 in equity in their home (that is higher than most states - some are $5,000) , however Chapter 7 requires that their income falls below a certain level (median income for their state).

Before you file bankruptcy, you are required to undergo approved credit counseling. The cost for that counseling is around $25. Have them sign up for one, take the class, and hang on to the certificate if they can't dig themselves out of their hole.

Also, beware of the commercial credit counselors/debt consolidation companies. They will tell you that they will negotiate lower payments and that you make all your payments to them. Some have been known to keep your payments, pay nothing on your behalf, and completely destroy your credit rating in the process.

 

[Greebo]

Agree, no harm in asking. But get credit report first.

But most lending institutions will look at total debt load & outstanding balance. The vast majority of loans are sold to Fannie or Freddie - their requirements are tougher than they used to be. ANd common -sense doesn't always apply, a lot of banks will not refi if finances look shaky.

Also need to look at total cost of refi, out-of-pocket. If they have to borrow money to refi, then the deal doesn't become as good.

http://www.annualcreditreport.com

FREE annual credit report from all three agencies.

NOT FreeCreditReport.com - that's just a site to get you to sign up for a monitoring service.

 

[DaleB]

It's a tough spot they have gotten themselves into, no doubt.

The very FIRST thing to remember is... nothing you or anyone else can do will have any positive result without the individuals concerned recognizing the situation and making very significant changes to their lifestyle. You could pay off every penny they owe, mortgage included, and they'd be right back where they are today within a few years.

No one can fix this but them. Very good advice abounds, and I can think of a couple of different approaches to climb out of the big hole they have dug for themselves. But it all starts with them being willing to do what it takes to fix it now, before everything implodes.

Refinancing the mortgage would be a good first step, if they can. If they're not behind on their bills, they may be able to cut the interest rate in half, and stretch it out to a fresh 30 year period. But it will ONLY help if they use EVERY PENNY of the extra monthly cash to pay down the credit card debt. They'll also need to drop anything that even remotely resembles a luxury. Dump the cable, no eating out, cell phones gone, no vacations, Starbucks, all of it.

It's not going to be easy, but it CAN be done. You just can't do it for them.

 

[AggieMike88]

Re-fi can help, but they need to go into that agreeing that that is not the only step.

They need to increase monthly income, sell a car or two to start a cash emergency fund, then figure a "cut to the bone" budget that will up the amount they could put toward the debt snowball.

The Total Money Makeover lays out the "Baby Steps" and the "Debt Snowball" in terms that anyone can follow.... The key item is to increase the income, then decrease the outflow by eliminating non-essentials, so that they can attack, in order, the debt from smallest to largest.

Smallest to largest is the best way because you can quickly celebrate a victories that a creditor is out of your life and their debt collectors won't be calling you. Snowballing means that once you have one or two killed, three and onward gain more money to pay the debt off, increasing the momentum until you have an entire avalanche bearing down on the last one.

Stories exist of folks tackling and killing $100 to $200k of debt within 24 months. They were disciplined, took on extra jobs for the income, avoided all new debt, sold cars, renamed the dog eBay or Craigslist, sold everything that wasn't nailed down (scaring the kids into thinking they were next), all for the goal of never having to live with that anchor around their neck again.

Again, re-fi can help, but it's just one step in a very long and difficult journey.

 

[AggieMike88]

I have a personal disagreement with individual bankruptcy from a moral perspective. But further discussion spin zone's this off of the OP's original question, so if you ever see me in person, we can share a beverage and discuss.

 

[Greebo]

I have a personal disagreement with individual bankruptcy from a moral perspective. But further discussion spin zone's this off of the OP's original question, so if you ever see me in person, we can share a beverage and discuss.

I certainly disapprove of bankruptcy when its used as a "get out of your commitments free" card.

 

[AggieMike88]

Dump the cable, no eating out, cell phones gone, no vacations, Starbucks, all of it.

Sacrifice of luxuries is a big component. And it can be little things that can make a big difference.

In the FPU class I attended, we discovered a married couple both smoked on the order of 3 packs combined per day. Our group leader quickly showed them that, if they were to cut this down to just 1 pack a day (aka budget and ration), they would easily generate more than $600-$750 of extra debt killing money per month.

And that was just one item.

Frills cutting for someone of the OP's level can easily pop loose more than an extra $1000-1500 per month. Add an additional $800-1000 per month from a 2nd part time job, and the first few credit cards will be quickly disposed of.

I'd bet that if the entire information was disclosed to a Dave Ramsey counselor or someone who (like me) really drunk the Kool Aid, it would be possible to set up a plan that would not only avoid bankruptcy, but have the debt killed, and the house almost completely paid off, and a large cash emergency fund and have all this done in less than the time it takes for the bankruptcy to fall off of their credit records.

But... plans are all well and good and great... *if* they are willing to make the sacrifice and change.

 

[AggieMike88]

I certainly disapprove of bankruptcy when its used as a "get out of your commitments free" card.

Exactly. As another contributor said, "get out of jail free" doesn't help them learn from the mistake, and they will be doomed to repeat.

How did we gain the wisdom we know use in our lives? Pain. We fell down, we burned ourselves, we suffered bumps, bruises, broken bones, and bent emotions. From this, we learned.

Remove the pain, the necessary lesson likely won't stick.

 

[wabower]

As a founding member of the IAFP (Financial Planners) in ~1969, I have watched (and in many cases advised) numerous people in similar situations. Insofar as fundamental advice, nothing has changed. Ramsey isn't saying anything new, he's just saying it to a more receptive group, since the number of people in need of this service has increased dramatically as a result of the recent downturn and years of living "on the come."

I have become a bit more hardened insofar as to the probability of the necessary "changing their ways" actually taking place, as illustrated by a 40-something couple in the area. High earners with a good side business, they found themselves financially hindered by a high-rate ARM that could not be refinanced or moved due to their large credit-card and car loan debt. They bought the Ramsey books, listened to the tapes, , established a budget and talked the talk. When he got a big bonus and the side business had a great year, the timing was perfect to kill a ton of debt and reposition in order to re-fi the house. Instead, they each got a new car.

Say what? The first day the new cars showed up was also my last day of helping with financial stuff. Some horses can't be led.

 

[AggieMike88]

Some horses can't be led.

Big agreement. And dealing with family members on this topic is like porcine singing lessons. Too often, powdered butt syndrome prevails.

I can understand using a bit of that bonus money for a celebration (like a $50-$100 dinner), but but blowing it all on something that loses value like a new car is.... unfortunate. Some folks never learn that we gain respect for them by what's under the skin, not the hood.

 

[Greebo]

As a founding member of the IAFP (Financial Planners) in ~1969, I have watched (and in many cases advised) numerous people in similar situations. Insofar as fundamental advice, nothing has changed. Ramsey isn't saying anything new, he's just saying it to a more receptive group, since the number of people in need of this service has increased dramatically as a result of the recent downturn and years of living "on the come."

Partly - but he had a huge audience before the recent downturn.

Ramsey himself admits he's just giving common sense advice - because common sense isn't. Where he excels is in packaging and driving the SENSE part of it home - that's more why his name is big than recent downturns.

One other thing - his advice has stayed consistent over the years, unlike certain other big name "advisors" who used to be endorsed by FICO and gave advice about establishing good credit... (coughcoughsuziecoughormancough) but changed her tune when the endorsement stopped...

Say what? The first day the new cars showed up was also my last day of helping with financial stuff. Some horses can't be led.

Never waste productive time on non productive people!

 

[wabower]

To quell any doubts, I am thrilled with Ramsey's success in making prudent financial management a priority and an "in thing" with those who need it.

Partly - but he had a huge audience before the recent downturn.

Ramsey himself admits he's just giving common sense advice - because common sense isn't. Where he excels is in packaging and driving the SENSE part of it home - that's more why his name is big than recent downturns.

One other thing - his advice has stayed consistent over the years, unlike certain other big name "advisors" who used to be endorsed by FICO and gave advice about establishing good credit... (coughcoughsuziecoughormancough) but changed her tune when the endorsement stopped...



Never waste productive time on non productive people!

 

[Chip Sylverne]

I have a personal disagreement with individual bankruptcy from a moral perspective. But further discussion spin zone's this off of the OP's original question, so if you ever see me in person, we can share a beverage and discuss.

A Chapter 13 isn't necessarily an attempt to discharge debt like would be a liquidation. It's an efficient attempt to come up with a 3-5 year payment plan that keeps the creditors at bay as long as the terms of the BK are met. If the OP's family member is seriously asking who can come after them for property and/ or garnishment if they don't pay, but still feel a moral obligation to satisfy their debts, it's an option. There are some qualifications that need to be discussed with a lawyer.

 

[onwards]

Yes, stop paying non-secured credit (credit cards), pay cash for expenses, and conserve the rest, then use it to settle accounts.

You dont need a company to do this for you. I negotiated successfully payments in the neighborhood of 40c on the dollar with several lenders for my ex-wife as part of our divorce.

 

[AggieMike88]

You dont need a company to do this for you. I negotiated successfully payments in the neighborhood of 40c on the dollar with several lenders for my ex-wife as part of our divorce.

But sometimes you need to be in serious default (and put up with all of the hassle that comes from that) for that tactic to work.

A strict "zero dollar" budget, snowballing, and getting an extra job can help eliminate debt before such a state exists. And often the process of just knowing that you have a plan and are moving forward, relieves the emotional stress of being in this jam. I know it did for me.


@Bower... kinda wish I knew you 15 yrs ago. As much as you kick my ash today on flying and finances, if I had started with ya back then, we'd be talking about that bigger aircraft, not these little 4-place things.