Crazy to career change to A&P?

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BearFly

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Philip
Struck up a conversation with the nice young gentleman A&P yesterday at the local FBO while getting paperwork in to start my PPL training.
He invited me into the hangar to talk about maintenance, ownership, show me the flight school planes they are working on, a little of everything. I had been knocking around idea of getting a job to allow me to hang at the airport, inside steady work, challenge, etc.
I work in construction now, a Union Ironworker. Decent hourly foreman pay, benefits thru Union, etc. Work can be tough in the elements and workforce and increasingly corporatized management can be tough to deal with, but generally not a terrible gig.
I have welding certs and 15 years experience in steel erection, welding, fabrication, etc. And i would likely take the opportunity to start some side fab work to stay busy and fill in the income gap as much as possible.
There is a local program on the other side of town (Cincinnati State AMT) at I67

He confirmed what i had suspected-that i would be taking a huge paycut inititally, and if i stayed in GA as an A&P or CFI wouldn't be a ton of earning potential. Still a little curious about others experience...
Has anyone tried? Become and A&P at age 40?
Am i crazy?
 
It will be a huge pay shock to you....figure you will be around 12-15$ an hour and no bennies before taxes. I've got 5 years left before retirement and will head back to school to get my A&P starting late this year or next year. I've got no intention on getting it for income, just my personal stuff and some restoration work.

If you want to do it for a side hustle, you would be ok, but as a main job, not so good. You are probably better off ramping up the welding side of things and go mobile with that and work in A&P classes as you can.
 
If there is a union pension in your future, to may want to take this into consideration. That is a huge deal and you won't get anything like it working as an A&P.

On the other hand, if to hate your current job, then go ahead make the switch.

Make additional money by advertising welding services on the side. You might be surprised how much you can bring in.
 
Since you are already involved in aviation you will likely find lots of opportunities

to assist in maintenance.

If you do; assure you log the tasks & time and have the Tech verify.

You can qualify via experience ( FAR 65.77) .

I believe the hardest part is to consistently update your log.

Not an easy path but I’ve worked with folks in their 60’s to get the A & P.
 
Craig said:
It will be a huge pay shock to you....figure you will be around 12-15$ an hour and no bennies before taxes. I've got 5 years left before retirement and will head back to school to get my A&P starting late this year or next year. I've got no intention on getting it for income, just my personal stuff and some restoration work.

If you want to do it for a side hustle, you would be ok, but as a main job, not so good. You are probably better off ramping up the welding side of things and go mobile with that and work in A&P classes as you can.
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Yeah i was a little surprised at the pay level even for an experienced A&P. The aviation economy is kind of a crazy thing. So much expense in training, ownership, maintenance, etc. some of this is understandable...but seems like maybe it doesn't make it's way down to the poor sap whose experience and workmanship are making sure you don't fall from the sky.
 
Lndwarrior said:
If there is a union pension in your future, to may want to take this into consideration. That is a huge deal and you won't get anything like it working as an A&P.

On the other hand, if to hate your current job, then go ahead make the switch.

Make additional money by advertising welding services on the side. You might be surprised how much you can bring in.
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Yeah my pension, insurance, etc. are the big things that have kept me hanging on this long. Can't say i'm miserable, but the general morale sometimes on the jobsite is tough to deal.
Seems like in my limited experience so far, people in Aviation are at least happy to be there. I'm sure the maintenance side of things can get ugly just like anything else...
 
BearFly said:
but seems like maybe it doesn't make it's way down to the poor sap whose experience and workmanship are making sure you don't fall from the sky.
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There is little or no profit for flight schools and maintenance facilities in the first place, so there isn’t going to be anything to give to the mechanics doing the work.

I work in an engine test lab for an engine OEM. There are probably at least two dozen certificated aircraft mechanics working here and almost none of them are active in the aviation community. There is a reason for that.
 
BearFly said:
He confirmed what i had suspected-that i would be taking a huge paycut inititally, and if i stayed in GA as an A&P or CFI wouldn't be a ton of earning potential. Still a little curious about others experience...
Has anyone tried? Become and A&P at age 40?
Am i crazy?
Click to expand...
Are your savings good enough that you can take up a hobby career? If not, maybe build up your savings for 10-15 more years, and then strike out into something fun. I've considered getting an instructor rating when I'm 65 in 9 years, not to pay any bills (well, maybe a bit of gas for my own plane), but just to stay busy and spend time at the airport. At 40, though, a lot of people are still too busy stoking the financial furnace to work for love instead of money, and a career in GA is rarely the way to save for the future.

I have most of my retirement savings in place and have already put both kids through university, which is why I can even dream about something like that now.
 
I stayed in GA for a couple years after getting my A&P. Long ago but the pay was low. Very low. I transitioned to the airlines because of it. Freight outfits mostly. 6 figures plus easily with excellent benefits. Great opportunity to learn advanced systems and procedural discipline with the airlines. I got out of the full time A&P stuff around 2005 to pursue other options but that would be my recommendation if you want to turn wrenches. You could always work GA on the side if desired.
 
Not to drift...

but if one is going to look to do it as a hobby career in the future or get one for restore work- how do you log your maintenance hours?

What counts and what can you log?

can I log all my owner allowed Maintenance hours? Oil changes, painting non balanced surfaces, greasing bearings? Etc? Do I log it like my flight hours? My signature?

if I’m performing “supervised repairs” do I and my IA need to sign it off?
 
Huckster79 said:
Not to drift...

but if one is going to look to do it as a hobby career in the future or get one for restore work- how do you log your maintenance hours?

What counts and what can you log?

can I log all my owner allowed Maintenance hours? Oil changes, painting non balanced surfaces, greasing bearings? Etc? Do I log it like my flight hours? My signature?

if I’m performing “supervised repairs” do I and my IA need to sign it off?
Click to expand...

I'd suggest using this: https://www.asa2fly.com/The-Standard-AMT-Log-P63.aspx

Log everything (tire changes, wheel bearing greasing, removing and re-installing interiors/access panels, uncowling/recowling, servicing batteries, troubleshooting, everything). If it is something supervised it'd be a good idea to get the A&P or IA supervising you to sign off on it. In addition to the 30 months full time experience equivalence (hours wise) you need to have practical experience in at least 50% of the areas of Part 147 Appendix B, C & D

I hadn't been as thorough on my logging as I should have been when I went for the interview with the inspector. I also had a number of letters from A&P's and IA's I'd worked for or with over the years as well (and pay history from "officially" working at a shop years ago). The inspector commented that he would have liked to see more in the log book. However, he was quite happy with the interview and approved my to take the tests with no issue. But my takeaway from that was log it all and let the inspector sort it out :)
 
Huckster79 said:
Not to drift...

but if one is going to look to do it as a hobby career in the future or get one for restore work- how do you log your maintenance hours?
Click to expand...

You can buy an AMT logbook and document your hours or create something similar on your own. Either way, I'd suggest discussing this with someone at your FSDO, as expectations vary. That said, even the most lax FSDOs seem to be tightening up on what they want to see. Within the last 3 or so years my local FSDO went from accepting a simple one page sheet of paper from a director of maintenance stating the dates an employee worked in their shop to needing a detailed logbook.
 
Log EVERYTHING with maintenance.

EVERYTHING includes troubleshooting, research and ordering parts as

well as oil changes , wash and wax etc.

You WILL want to work with an A & P also.

Assure they sign your log at short intervals.

I can tell you horror stories of folks that didn’t do this and the Tech decided

not to sign after all.

If you are diligent and log EVERYTHING I see no reason to check with FSDO now.

By the time you accumulate sufficient time it’s likely you’ll have

a different Inspector anyway.
 
“Satisfactory to the Administrator “ is the wording.

That can work for or against you depending on the Inspector.

It does vary FSDO to FSDO and person to person.

Pictures is also part of EVERYTHING.

Don’t take a knife to a gunfight!
 
Keep in mind there is no “ Book Time” regarding tasks for an Apprentice Mechanic.

ie An experienced Tech could likely change a tire and grease the bearing in

about 1 hour.

The Trainee may take3 hours to do the same.

Jacking Instructions, type of grease , torque , procedure following SM.

Possibly a Work Order, billing and time accounting and of course the

Record Entries.

All part of the job.
 
Quit your job...and labor for him. If you like it be an apprentice and earn the certs OJT. Prolly take you two to three years ....either way.
 
Finding experienced A/Ps in GA is difficult. I think you should go for it if you are passionate about it. Our local flight school needs one right now.
 
BearFly said:
Become and A&P at age 40?
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To add to the above, know of several A&Ps who started as 2nd career but they were in the 30. And unless you get into the larger 135 or 121 operators the pay scales will probably not compete with your current ones. The only disadvantage starting at 40 is the reduced time to gain experience which is the core consideration with APs.

The quickest/cheapest way to get an AP is to find a local CC program. While the log/experience method is still possible it' becoming very subjective to the issuing FSDO. The last 4 people I assisted with this had 4 different requirements. So if you elect to pursue that route I highly recommend contacting the FSDO who will issue you the test authorizations to ensure you provide them with the correct format. good luck.
 
When I was in A&P school there were 2 mid career engineers a machinist, and a freshly retired auto mechanic. The youngest had to be mid 40s. All but one actually wanted a career as an A&P. Not sure what happened to them, but sure it's doable. Just don't expect to get rich. I got out of A&Ping after a few years for the space industry however so not sure about the day to day now. I do visit shops all the time for my current job and they are all hurting for a&ps.
 
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"The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" DON'T DO IT!. Instead, watch your finances so you can retire early and have the freedom to do what you want at an early age. If at that time in your life you want to do it as a sideline to make up additional retirement income, then fine, you have the option. The liability may make you think twice when you have built a nest egg. There are many very good reasons why only 2 of the 12 in my A&P class were working in aviation less than 5 yrs after graduation.
After that, the training you get in A&P school will allow you to be pretty good in all trades. I've been call a jack of all trades, and master of none, but what I have seen of the masters is much less than I see of the average A&P. So there is that. In aviation what we call marginal work, the rest of the world calls perfection. There is no "Good enough".
Good luck on your decision.
 
Similar background as me. Welder/fabricator with multiple certs. I've got a family business job shop. My dad is still around at 63. He's thought about getting his A/P to restore and flip. He did the same with cars before the weld shop took off. I think I got him thinking straight in that the experimental market would be more worthwhile in retirement when there's nothing to go hunt and fishing hasn't started yet. He wants to build a carbon cub. You look at what some of these eab's go for and if you built 1 or 2 a year and sold you could probably make that work financially. And don't even need the a/p
 
I’m very thankful I got my A&P. Never once regretted it! It was not my ultimate dream, but definitely part of it. I was fortunate enough to stumble my way into an A&P program right out of high school. Licensed in 87. It opened a lot of doors. I would have never become an airline pilot if it were not for the A&P. The company had a tuition reimbursement program. Got a 4 year from Embry Riddle on the house because of the A&P. Then got picked up as a pilot. Great opportunities out there. It’s all what you make of it. I’ve never seen a better market than now in this business. All the shops I deal with are booked slap full.
 
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I suspect the money isn't in maintaining piston GA airplanes.
More likely turbines. Helicopters, turboprops, jets. That's where all the kids seem to want to do from what I've noticed.

The other area might be structures? All these little airplanes are aging, and I am impressed with the heroics that airframe techs sometimes go through to keep some of them flying. I've seen one of our local shops perform entire firewall replacements on 172s and 182s after they've been "wrinkled" by students. And on one occasion watched them replace the entire tube structure on a Mooney 231 - it had been parked outside, mice got in it and corroded some of the lower tube structure. Took it apart and installed a replacement tube structure.
 
This is timely, because my nephew in grade 11 is very much into classic engines, and is trying to decide whether to take college courses specialising in aircraft maintenance or big diesel engines the year after next. We had a great, 2m distanced chat about piston airplane engines (and their absurdly-large displacement — over 1.3 litres per cylinder in my 160 hp O-320-D3G) — but I think his heart is more with working on older truck and tractor engines. That's too bad for me, because it would have been great to have an AME (Canuck for A&P) in the family in 5 years or so.

On the bright side, I think I've convinced his parents to let him take the old, seized-up lawnmower out of my garage in the spring and strip down the Briggs and Stratton motor for practice.
 
If you decide to get your A&P, definitely do it at a local technical community college like Cincinatti State. The purpose of going to school is to prepare you for the A&P written and practicals, nothing more. You will learn the real skills at your first gig as a certified A&P.

There is a local program here that costs a total of $11,000 plus the expense of buying your own tools. The biggest kicker is that you have to spend 8 hours a day at the school. This is what the FAA requires of you and the schools that are certified under 147.

Unless you have enough money saved to cover living expenses for 2 years, it will be very difficult to do. A part time job will help somewhat but you just have to crunch the numbers.

Remember as an certified A&P you work under the rules of the FAA. The job is very stressful and the pay isn't that great. With that being said, if you like being around airplanes all of the time, then go for it. You only live once.
 
P51P28 said:
The job is very stressful and the pay isn't that great.
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I'll agree isn't good until you get into 135 or 121 with some experience. But never found it "stressful" or most of my peers. The ones that did usually got out after couple years or were fired. I found you make the job and we actually had a hoot working on aircraft... which if we didn't we all agreed moving diesels or turbine generators where the pay was 2x
 
If you pick up a project like a Colt rebuild you can log that time toward the

ticket while keeping the big buck job.

Don’t restrict your research only to Comm Colleges.

Some High Schools also have Full or Part Time Classes.

You should also know the A & P opens the door to a lot of related fields.

Programs like the Shuttle and F-35 had involvement by an A & P that

did Dept of Defense acceptance.
 
Bell206 said:
I'll agree isn't good until you get into 135 or 121 with some experience. But never found it "stressful" or most of my peers. The ones that did usually got out after couple years or were fired. I found you make the job and we actually had a hoot working on aircraft... which if we didn't we all agreed moving diesels or turbine generators where the pay was 2x
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For sure. A better choice of words would be "can be very stressful at times" ;)
 
From the small amount of permitted owner maintenance I've done on my own plane, I imagine A&Ps at least save money on yoga classes, because they have to contort their bodies every day to work on our planes in ways that would make a yoga master give up.
 
P51P28 said:
For sure. A better choice of words would be "can be very stressful at times" ;)
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In curious what you feel “can be very stressful” about working on airplanes. I haven’t found anything that I would categorize that way, and I do some pretty large and unusual maintenance projects.
 
mondtster said:
In curious what you feel “can be very stressful” about working on airplanes. I haven’t found anything that I would categorize that way, and I do some pretty large and unusual maintenance projects.
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It's only stressful....when you forget something critical. o_O
 
Leaving a good Union job to work at small business will leave you really disappointed.
 
If you think that moving to aviation will get you away from people with bad attitudes, you are sorely mistaken. While it may seem fun from the outside, it eventually turns into just another job. You'd be much better off keeping it as a hobby. You also need to sit down and crunch some numbers to see how much money you'll be losing out on leaving the union construction job. I would suspect you could buy a new cirrus with the number you come up with. You'll also be losing out on the job protection the union offers. Working for a mom and pop shop is great until pop drops dead, or mom and pop gets a divorce, or mom runs off with the accountant and all the money.....etc etc.

For reference, I've worked in aviation since I was 16, doing line service, dispatching, and finally as a professional pilot.
 
Those that take risks have the most to gain. Now, of course, it requires focus and dedication. How many billionaires dropped out of or never went to college? There are some shocking stats.
I’m a gubment worker myself with a modest pension and separate 401k/TSP in the bank building up and waiting for me when I walk at age 50. Coming from a family of blue and white collars from Detroit, if you’re already deep in your groove, then it’s probably best to STAY. Ironworkers are a good union. I truly understand burnout but just try to figure out what is burnin you out and try to fix that issue. My dad is finally retiring at age 77 and has been doing the same trade since 1966.
 
Salty said:
Speak for yourself.
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Note that he said "work at a small business," not "own a small business."

There are admirable exceptions—including some right here in my neighbourhood—but often the only way to survive as a small business owner in the most price-competitive commodity service or retail industries is to exploit your employees mercilessly. :(
 
I hope that you're not crazy, I have 18 years on you and I'm going to be one. I need something to keep me busy when I retire...again. ;)
 
This was a good analogy many years ago when i was starving in aviation. I was told,,,,,,"lots of money changes hands in aviation, its almost impossible to carve out enough of it as it hemorrhages through you hands, to make a living." I believe that pretty much sums it up accurately. I know many people who have done fairly well in aviation careers. But had they done something else, they would have worked less, had more quality time with family, taken better vacations, and retired better off, if they could retire at all. The exceptions are those who worked for the airlines in good times, witch are fleeting in the airline business. I was told in my new hire class, by a senior Capt. Live like an airline pilot and you will be broke all your life and bacnkrupt more than once. Live like a trash truck driver, and you may make it through this career. That was right after they told us," congratulations, you just won the lotery and your going to be a rock star, and here is your furlough notice". I spent the next 8 yrs mostly on furlough. Then working under bankruptcy rules, then merged to the bottom of a seniority list. The list of work disruptions goes on and on. It the rare exception is the good career.
 
Columbus took a chance.

Why not start taking some courses and/or logging time while you scope out the

situation?

There are some good careers out there.

All you need is ONE!
 
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