Crazy.. SR22 down NC, both survived

Tantalum

Tantalum

Final Approach
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San_Diego_Pilot
Yikes! Weren't we recently talking about parachuting down into trees? Well this is what it looks like:
Screenshot_20190822-222226.png

Both occupants survived and walked away. Conjecture is that they flew into a thunderstorm and became overwhelmed and had to use the chute (not totally clear yet what exactly happened, whether it was ice, extreme turbulence, or something else), looks like they tried to out climb the storm, but no luck:
https://wlos.com/news/local/crews-responding-after-reports-of-plane-crash-near-mount-mitchell

some local reports said that the area had hail, and some extremely heavy precipitation, etc

Pretty idiotic to fly into that.. but they survived! And plane stayed physically in one piece
 
This one MIGHT be classified into the category of a CAPS save, that might not have been necessary if the pilot didn’t know they had CAPS. Would they have bailed out of that weather with a U-turn far sooner if they didn’t have the warm fuzzy of CAPS?

Very hard to say. I hope people aren’t pushing weather because of fancy avionics and a parachute for the airframe. These airplanes are still light singles and have the limitations of one. (Shrug...?) Still need to fly them that way. Doesn’t matter that they are FIKI sometimes either. It’s not a jet with oodles of power in reserve.

Sigh. Glad they survived whatever the reasoning. :)
 
denverpilot said:
This one MIGHT be classified into the category of a CAPS save, that might not have been necessary if the pilot didn’t know they had CAPS. Would they have bailed out of that weather with a U-turn far sooner if they didn’t have the warm fuzzy of CAPS?

Very hard to say. I hope people aren’t pushing weather because of fancy avionics and a parachute for the airframe. These airplanes are still light singles and have the limitations of one. (Shrug...?) Still need to fly them that way. Doesn’t matter that they are FIKI sometimes either. It’s not a jet with oodles of power in reserve.

Sigh. Glad they survived whatever the reasoning. :)
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Yeah that's a weird human psych part.. that really we'll never know what went through the individual's mind and ADM. But.. I'd guess for most people it adds a comfort level but doesn't necessarily mean they'll push harder. I mean, the Bo guy in Half Moon Bay didn't have a chute and he still launched out over the water after doing extensive fuel tank work.. and there are plenty of non chute people who push their planes into weather.. these two immediately come to mind as fairly recent CB encounter events:
http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2019/06/piper-pa-46-350p-malibu-mirage-jetprop.html
http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2019/02/piper-pa-32rt-300-lance-ii-n3016l-fatal_2.html
^to your point though, chute-safety aside, people who push into bad weather and meet their demise tend to do so in fairly advanced aircraft (relatively speaking) with fancy XM, glass, ice protection, etc.

SoonerAviator said:
So can he log the landing? ;)
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It was certainly a FULL STOP landing.. that's for sure! If we base this on what we were told getting our PPL days then any landing you can walk away from (which he did) is a "good" landing.. unfortunately doubtful they'll be able to use the plane again, so can't call it a great landing
 
Tantalum said:
. . . It was certainly a FULL STOP landing.. that's for sure! If we base this on what we were told getting our PPL days then any landing you can walk away from (which he did) is a "good" landing.. unfortunately doubtful they'll be able to use the plane again, so can't call it a great landing
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Any landing you can fall away from.
 
Hey, shouldn't this be moved to the Aviation Mishaps folder?
 
denverpilot said:
This one MIGHT be classified into the category of a CAPS save, that might not have been necessary if the pilot didn’t know they had CAPS. Would they have bailed out of that weather with a U-turn far sooner if they didn’t have the warm fuzzy of CAPS?

Very hard to say. I hope people aren’t pushing weather because of fancy avionics and a parachute for the airframe. These airplanes are still light singles and have the limitations of one. (Shrug...?) Still need to fly them that way. Doesn’t matter that they are FIKI sometimes either. It’s not a jet with oodles of power in reserve.

Sigh. Glad they survived whatever the reasoning. :)
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This goes to the question, "Are planes with parachutes safer?" The answer is yes. Unfortunately the pilots that fly planes with parachutes are not necessarily safer. :( Worse, some of them are taking risks that they shouldn't be taking because "chute". :rolleyes: :oops:

With the near real-time weather information available today why is anyone flying into a thunderstorm?
 
Caps give many pilots a false sense of security. The chute isn’t much good if the storm causes an in flight break up.
 
wayne said:
This goes to the question, "Are planes with parachutes safer?" The answer is yes. Unfortunately the pilots that fly planes with parachutes are not necessarily safer. :( Worse, some of them are taking risks that they shouldn't be taking because "chute". :rolleyes: :oops:

With the near real-time weather information available today why is anyone flying into a thunderstorm?
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"I gots me an autopilot and a chute, I'll do what I want!"

You can't tell Cirrus pilots* they can't do something, or criticize them. Way too entitled.

*at least the ones cirrus markets to. and with the caveat of most, not all.
 
frfly172 said:
Caps give many pilots a false sense of security. The chute isn’t much good if the storm causes an in flight break up.
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there are many tools that give us a false sense of security, I rank known ice protection and XM weather up there as well.. but I've met people who go flying in weather they wouldn't simply because the plane has a GFC 500 autopilot

I've thought about the inflight breakup thing myself.. allegedly the chute is designed to work even if the wings depart the aircraft as it slings to the passenger compartment.. they initially put the chute on there to help in the event on a midair collision

Out of somewhere between 7,000 and 8,000 aircraft produced there has not been a single inflight break up.. and that's despite some CB encounters and many "hold my beer" dumb pilot tricks
 
wayne said:
the pilots that fly planes with parachutes are not necessarily safer
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Yep.. and it's the same thing with Icon.. and modern cars and SUVs. I always laugh when a $100K SUV, with every freaking traction aid bell and whistle, is stuck in a snowbank being pulled out by a stick shift rear wheel drive 1980s pickup

wayne said:
With the near real-time weather information available today why is anyone flying into a thunderstorm?
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I don't get it.. even if your plane doesn't have onboard weather just about every single person has Foreflight or some other equivalent. To fly into deadly weather is just reckless.

^to that point: when the NTSB / Insurance do their investivation, etc., would someone who knowingly flew into a "no-go" weather event face any kind of enforcement action? I know the FAA is trying to take a friendlier approach to things, but would this guy need to take any remedial before being allowed back in the air?
 
EdFred said:
autopilot
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Yeah.. I know people who won't fly by hand in IMC.. even with a competent IR right seater up there. For single pilot IMC, yes, the AP is a great load relieving tool.. however everyone should be able to fly an approach manually.. if you can't, you shouldn't be in the clouds.
 
Tantalum said:
Yeah.. I know people who won't fly by hand in IMC.. even with a competent IR right seater up there. For single pilot IMC, yes, the AP is a great load relieving tool.. however everyone should be able to fly an approach manually.. if you can't, you shouldn't be in the clouds.
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I agree with that 100%.
 
Tantalum said:
Yeah.. I know people who won't fly by hand in IMC.. even with a competent IR right seater up there. For single pilot IMC, yes, the AP is a great load relieving tool.. however everyone should be able to fly an approach manually.. if you can't, you shouldn't be in the clouds.
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EdFred said:
I agree with that 100%.
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+1

My favorite approach practice is to go out in IMC versus under the hood. I shoot some with the AP and and some by hand. I want to make sure I'm doing both right. Ultimate weather is when the ceiling is below some of the higher GPS approaches and I have to go missed for real. Going missed in VMC to go to the next approach is just not quite the same and not seeing the ground and having to climb again all in IMC.
 
Tantalum said:
I don't get it.. even if your plane doesn't have onboard weather just about every single person has Foreflight or some other equivalent. To fly into deadly weather is just reckless.
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That's more what I meant than onboard radar, which is rare on a single engine piston plane. It could be XM or ADS-B on a MFD/iPad app/hand-held device, but getting near real-time data is easy today. Plus ATC is advising people much more now without any prompting (after the Scott Crossfield crash).
 
frfly172 said:
Caps give many pilots a false sense of security. The chute isn’t much good if the storm causes an in flight break up.
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Depends on what breaks. Most in-flight breakup stories I read involve wing, tail, or engine-mount failures. The CAPS attachment points probably aren't involved, so the plane should be able to descend under canopy.

Whether the pilot is capable of pulling the red handle in a plane gyrating after a structural failure is another issue.

Ron Wanttaja
 
wanttaja said:
Whether the pilot is capable of pulling the red handle in a plane gyrating after a structural failure is another issue.
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Yup. And something I think adamantly is a BAD idea is the CAPS deployment on the Vision Jet is tied to the autopilot servers so that you can only deploy the chute within the chute's design envelope. People have pulled the CAPs in SR series aircraft as fast around 190 knots indicated, well over the 133 design speed, and they lived to see another day. If you are tumbling in extreme turbulence, or have a plane that is missing a wing due to a breakup (whether weather or midair caused) I'm not sure how the SF50 can deploy the chute if the AP servos can't get it within its design envelope
 
One needs to keep that divert airport in the back pocket, & know when to use it.

Cockpit weather is commonplace nowadays, kinda helpful too. Glad they made it, sorry for the plane.
 
Tantalum said:
Yeah.. I know people who won't fly by hand in IMC.. even with a competent IR right seater up there. For single pilot IMC, yes, the AP is a great load relieving tool.. however everyone should be able to fly an approach manually.. if you can't, you shouldn't be in the clouds.
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I agree with that 100%.
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Hold on a sec. You guys aren't doing this right. @EdFred makes a blanket disparaging statement about Cirrus pilots. And then @Tantalum is supposed to take offense to it. @EdFred then comes back with something. Soon, @MetalCloud jumps in. I don't come to PoA to see you guys all nicey nicey to each other. Come on. Straighten up.
 
Sam D said:
Hold on a sec. You guys aren't doing this right. @EdFred makes a blanket disparaging statement about Cirrus pilots. And then @Tantalum is supposed to take offense to it. @EdFred then comes back with something. Soon, @MetalCloud jumps in. I don't come to PoA to see you guys all nicey nicey to each other. Come on. Straighten up.
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It's Friday and it's beautiful out.. I'm just happy I'm not going for a swim in Half Moon Bay or hanging from a tree after flying into a CB!
 
I wonder if this guy was imc and couldn't see the storm, or if he just flew into the thing. I can't imagine someone saying "I have a chute, so let's give it a try" other than someone speculating on an internet forum.
 
PaulS said:
I wonder if this guy was imc and couldn't see the storm, or if he just flew into the thing. I can't imagine someone saying "I have a chute, so let's give it a try" other than someone speculating on an internet forum.
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There was some conjecture on the COPA forum that many tops in the area may have been as high as 45,000 based on satellite images of where he was flying at the time of the accident. Just about exactly where he went down, while he was around 17K, there appeared to be "a top" around 19K that he may have been attempting to get above. However, ice can be worst right at the very top of the cloud. From the tree photo it seems the plane had TKS, although it doesn't look like a FIKI bird (IE, limited TKS time, and doesn't provide full coverage, and is not approved).. I imagine where he was he was either IMC, or in and out but not really getting a clear view

Also, many of the NE storms are well embedded inside other clouds, etc. FL, and many other areas, give you the privilege of very clearly seeing where the storm is.. that's not always the case in an east coast storm

This was a pretty informative post from there:

"
I flew across Mt Mitchel yesterday just after noon local time heading back from Chicago. I dodged TS and build up most of the way but this area just had scattered build up when I got there.

Heading NW from the crash site the pilot would likely not get over the TS I went around even above FL200 and would have been in ice. The temp over Mitchel at 11k was 5*c .... I flew out of Chicago and stayed at 11 due to ice above 15. ForeFlight briefing was reporting moderate ice in a large area.
"
link to anyone who cares.. it's an informative thread
 
PaulS said:
I wonder if this guy was imc and couldn't see the storm, or if he just flew into the thing. I can't imagine someone saying "I have a chute, so let's give it a try" other than someone speculating on an internet forum.
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Nobody’s saying that. But “I can go IMC with embedded storms and icing reported in the area” ... is a decision. If you decide not to make a decision to turn around, that’s the mindset.

Different sort of decision ... one of not making one. “It’ll be fine...”
 
denverpilot said:
Nobody’s saying that. But “I can go IMC with embedded storms and icing reported in the area” ... is a decision. If you decide not to make a decision to turn around, that’s the mindset.

Different sort of decision ... one of not making one. “It’ll be fine...”
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That's just a bad decision if that's how it happened, I can't imagine the chute entering into it, but who knows.

I'm flying Cirrus and the chute never enters into my mind planning a flight, it just doesn't. There are probably those who think that way, but I'm willing to bet they are few and far between, especially if they've done the Cirrus training.
 
I just checked out Tantalum's link over to COPA. It's on the member's side, so I doubt non members can see it. But Scott Dennstaedt made an interesting post over there. He showed the radar loops and satellite at the time of and before the crash. It looks like these started out like most TS events and were low level, but building. There also looked like a sucker gap that this guy may have been looking at. He climbed to 15,000 feet, which at the time he started the climb may have been enough to get over the storm, but as Scott said, this one probably easily outclimbed the Cirrus. Not making excuses for them, I hope I would have been saavy enough to understand what was going on. There were severe storm warnings over the car radio in the area according to one poster, that would have done it for me.
 
PaulS said:
I just checked out Tantalum's link over to COPA. It's on the member's side, so I doubt non members can see it. But Scott Dennstaedt made an interesting post over there. He showed the radar loops and satellite at the time of and before the crash. It looks like these started out like most TS events and were low level, but building. There also looked like a sucker gap that this guy may have been looking at. He climbed to 15,000 feet, which at the time he started the climb may have been enough to get over the storm, but as Scott said, this one probably easily outclimbed the Cirrus. Not making excuses for them, I hope I would have been saavy enough to understand what was going on. There were severe storm warnings over the car radio in the area according to one poster, that would have done it for me.
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This is where we go back to my comment that a Cirrus needs to be flown like the light single that it is. And where I think SOME Cirrus drivers are convinced the thing has some sort of magical transcendent powers that make it into a Pilatus or TBM.

That’s all I’m trying to convey. There’s an attitude of them being “traveling machines” vs what they really are “slightly faster than trainers light single with some nice avionics and a venerable TKS tank and pump”.

Also this DOES not seem to affect upgrades who flew other aircraft first. It’s cultural with owners who started in them or had very limited XC exposure and only training in spamcans. From personal observations anyway. Which are probably worthless. Ha.
 
denverpilot said:
This is where we go back to my comment that a Cirrus needs to be flown like the light single that it is. And where I think SOME Cirrus drivers are convinced the thing has some sort of magical transcendent powers that make it into a Pilatus or TBM.

That’s all I’m trying to convey. There’s an attitude of them being “traveling machines” vs what they really are “slightly faster than trainers light single with some nice avionics and a venerable TKS tank and pump”.

Also this DOES not seem to affect upgrades who flew other aircraft first. It’s cultural with owners who started in them or had very limited XC exposure and only training in spamcans. From personal observations anyway. Which are probably worthless. Ha.
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Nah, your observations are good. This one almost seems like a case of getthereitis, rather than let's wait on the ground and see what happens.
 
denverpilot said:
Very hard to say. I hope people aren’t pushing weather because of fancy avionics and a parachute for the airframe.
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What, risk compensation? That's fake news according to the peanut gallery and the cirroids. :rolleyes::D
 
wayne said:
With the near real-time weather information available today why is anyone flying into a thunderstorm?
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Because people think it is real time, when it's up to 20 minutes old. A LOT can change in 20 minutes. And people seem to think that it's real time, or at least real time as of the time it was transmitted. This is maybe the most common misunderstanding in aviation today, IMO. People act like it's radar when it just isn't.

Before we had all this info in flight, we would have probably picked a field that was in the clear, and landed there to check weather. Now, we press on.

Really glad I have onboard radar now, but you've still got to know the limitations of your equipment. The size dish we have is really only effective to 60 miles, but it only takes us 12 minutes to cover that.
 
I'm waiting for the day a Cirrus enters a CB, pulls the 'chute and the updrafts in the storm take the airplane up to 50k, zap it with lightning and pound it to bits with hail.

A long time ago I got a little too close to a smallish CB in a Champ. The updrafts were taking the airplane up even with the power at idle. I had to dive away from the storm to escape it. And I hadn't even entered it yet. If a little CB can do that to a Champ still some distance away, it can surely lift a Cirrus under its 'chute a long way up inside. These storms do keep big hailstones aloft, after all.
 
Dan Thomas said:
I'm waiting for the day a Cirrus enters a CB, pulls the 'chute and the updrafts in the storm take the airplane up to 50k, zap it with lightning and pound it to bits with hail.

A long time ago I got a little too close to a smallish CB in a Champ. The updrafts were taking the airplane up even with the power at idle. I had to dive away from the storm to escape it. And I hadn't even entered it yet. If a little CB can do that to a Champ still some distance away, it can surely lift a Cirrus under its 'chute a long way up inside. These storms do keep big hailstones aloft, after all.
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wasn't there a guy in a military jet who ejected in a storm and ended up getting launched up to some absurd altitude like that?
 
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