Crash on Martha's Vineyard, Deaf pilots everywhere

corjulo

corjulo

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Corjulo
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I arrived at Katama airport about 2 hours after the crash of a Cessna with three on board (i drove). My instructor (tail-wheel endorsement) was somewhat involved, in that he was back taxing on the runway when in a Waco when the Cessna turned for short final. The pilot attempted a go around, pulled the nose up too hard and started to turn. Classic stall, the plane dropped out of the sky. OK, so here's the strange part. Everyone on board the Cessna was deaf. Another 5 planes, all with deaf pilots had already landed. To make matters worse they tried to close the airport but more deaf pilot where arriving and landing right over the fire-trucks on the field. It was really bizarre. I mean, if you see fire-trucks and a crashed plane you would think most would assume the airport was closed. I'm not certain how I feel about deaf pilot. I came back today and took some pictures.
 
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I can't see any way in which a hearing impairment contributed to the initial crash, or for that matter how it would contribute to boneheads landing over the firetrucks.
 
Well, it could have contributed to the crash in that if the back taxiing aircraft had announced and the pilot of the crash aircraft had heard, he would not have had to wait to see the other aircraft to go around. OTOH, neither the announcement nor any radio communication was required. (and the fact that he botched the go 'round seems to have been the cause here, which again has nothing directly to do with the radio).

While I am all for enabling people with a handicap, I have some misgivings here as well. Then again, radio's are not required in all aircraft, making all NORDO pilots effectively deaf anyway. Seems better scans and judgement could have been used by a bunch of pilots here though.....
 
Remember the visual clues to a closed runway. Big Xs. Red light signals. I don't know where the firetrucks were in relation to the runway, but since it is untowered, and not NOTAM closed when the pilots took off, it would be hard for them to know it was closed.
 
Proper way to close it would be I suppose to get authority from the FAA and mark with X's (will they do that for short term closures?). Still, landing over the firetrucks? If they're on the runway, I'd be finding another field.
 
Joe Williams said:
I can't see any way in which a hearing impairment contributed to the initial crash..
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One contributing factor could be that the pilot wouldn't be able to hear the stall horn.
 
Joe Williams said:
I can't see any way in which a hearing impairment contributed to the initial crash, or for that matter how it would contribute to boneheads landing over the firetrucks.
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When you can't make and can't hear a call on CTAF, that can be a contributing factor even though calls aren't per se required.
 
Henning said:
When you can't make and can't hear a call on CTAF, that can be a contributing factor even though calls aren't per se required.
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Contributing, maybe; causitive, no.
 
silver-eagle said:
Remember the visual clues to a closed runway. Big Xs. Red light signals. I don't know where the firetrucks were in relation to the runway, but since it is untowered, and not NOTAM closed when the pilots took off, it would be hard for them to know it was closed.
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Runway 6 and 3 intersect. They (the fire trucks) where parked just off 6 and on 3, as well as the road. the Cessna was off 6, Katama is all grass strips. In the newspaper article the fireman are actually standing on 6. They flew right over them to land.

Paul, The Waco pilot, was on the radio the whole time. There is no taxi way for 3 or 6, only back-taxi on the runway. I found out today some of the planes did turn around to leave before landing. Paul believes the turn is what did it. The climb has steep but not out of the ream of a 172.

True, nothing about being deaf led to the stall directly. But knowing about the Waco and its intent certainly might have helped prevent it
 
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Nav8tor said:
One contributing factor could be that the pilot wouldn't be able to hear the stall horn.
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Good point. But it happened so fast.
 
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corjulo said:
Runway 6 and 3 intersect. They where parked just off 6 and on 3, as well as the road. the Cessna was off 6, Katama is all grass strips. In the newspaper article the fireman are actually standing on 6. The flew right over them to land.

Paul, The Waco pilot, was on the radio the whole time. There is no taxi way for 3 or 6, only back-taxi on the runway. I found out today some of the planes did turn around to leave before landing. Paul believes the turn is what did it. The climb has steep but not out of the ream of a 172.

True, nothing about being deaf led to the stall directly. But knowing about the Waco and its intent certainly might have helped prevent it
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Does the aprt layout have anything to do with it? I've been with pilots who sit fat, dumb, and happy who haven't given a thought to what their course of action will be if something beyond what they expect should occur. I've observed that in all phases of flight but you think that lax attitude would diminish as the ground got closer. Ignorance is not bliss.
 
Dan: I was on Martha's Vineyard on Thursday right before the crash. As a matter of fact I left south beach just steps from the airport shortly before the crash. I was watching all the planes fly in to Katamah from the Beach. I didn't find out about the crash until we went to KMVY the towered airport on the Vineyard to fly home to KPNE. ( Awesome flight by the way, I'll report on it later) FSS had the closure in their briefing to me.

As for deaf pilots there is a great book call flight of the gin fizz about a deaf pilot ( true story). Appears there was a meeting of Deaf Pilots at Plymouth Mass just before this happened. The options for the deaf pilots would be to fly to Nantucket 23 nm east , Chatham on cape cod or back to Plymouth. I think most of the other fields in the area are controlled.
 
AdamZ said:
Dan: I was on Martha's Vineyard on Thursday right before the crash. As a matter of fact I left south beach just steps from the airport shortly before the crash. I was watching all the planes fly in to Katamah from the Beach. I didn't find out about the crash until we went to KMVY the towered airport on the Vineyard to fly home to KPNE. ( Awesome flight by the way, I'll report on it later) FSS had the closure in their briefing to me.

As for deaf pilots there is a great book call flight of the gin fizz about a deaf pilot ( true story). Appears there was a meeting of Deaf Pilots at Plymouth Mass just before this happened. The options for the deaf pilots would be to fly to Nantucket 23 nm east , Chatham on cape cod or back to Plymouth. I think most of the other fields in the area are controlled.
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I know South Beach well. My dad lives in Gay Head, other end of the Island. I think this is going to cause all kinds of problem for Deaf Pilots and possibly Katama airfield. I hope Katama is OK, its a great field but sits on some of the most valuable property in the world. The fact that they kept landing even with emergency equipment on the runway is going to be a big issue. The deaf piliot group had called Katama to let them know they would be coming. The field had asked them not to come on the weekend but to come friday instead. They agreed. It was actually slow Friday other then the Waco's flying sight seeing tours all day.
 
It may effect deaf pilots ( not the crash but the continued landings over the fire trucks) don't think it will hurt the field. There have been other searches there before. The land may be very valuable but since your dad lives in Aquinnah you know how the cape and Islands are when it comes to development. One thing they tend to do well is protect open space at least on cape cod and I assume the same is true for Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket.
 
I hate to hear of this accident. I had a boy in school that was deaf and got his pilots license. I don't know if he is still flying or not. I think some of you are quick to judge. How about if you were born that way. Would still feel the same way? Just a thought.
 
I don't think anyone is judging DEAF pilots - I just see comments about pilots who land over emergency vehicles and emergency personnel.
 
BillG said:
I don't think anyone is judging DEAF pilots - I just see comments about pilots who land over emergency vehicles and emergency personnel.
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There's quite a bit of judging of deaf pilots in this thread, which I think is out of place. You've laid the blame where it belongs, and on what should be the subject of discussion: poor pilot judgement.
 
AdamZ said:
One thing they tend to do well is protect open space at least on cape cod and I assume the same is true for Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket.
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Katama Airpark is within the 192 acre Katama Plains wildlife refuge. That should give significant protection from the developers.

-Skip
 
Joe Williams said:
There's quite a bit of judging of deaf pilots in this thread, which I think is out of place. You've laid the blame where it belongs, and on what should be the subject of discussion: poor pilot judgement.
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I don't think anyone is bashing deaf pilots per say. But is it safe for the deaf to fly? Personally I think it is safe but I say that with reservations. At the very least lessons should be learned about this accident and the subsequent landings at a closed airport. Those should be communicated to the deaf pilots community.

For the record the airport manager and the two local Waco pilots I talked to agreed the Deaf Pilot association is welcome and encouraged to come back. For them it was a botched go around, could have happen to any distracted pilot.
 
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Is it safe for deaf pilots to fly? What's the difference (in the air) between a deaf pilot and a NORDO pilot?
 
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BillG said:
Is it safe for deaf pilots to fly? What's the difference (in the air) between a deaf pilot and a NORAD pilot?
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:dunno:

NORAD Pilots have a full load of live munitions?

-Skip
 
It is definitely a handicap for a pilot that can not hear a radio. But all I am saying is this could have happened to any pilot. You read and hear all the time of stall spin accidents. This pilot just happened to be deaf. If we think they should not fly because they can't hear, than it is starting to sound like the government restrictions that we hate. Yes they have a problem but it is a free country.
 
I think the consensus is that the Stall was clearly not a result of the PIC being hearing impaired. No way! But you know how they always say accidents are not the result of one event but a chain of events? i.e. PIC is late so he takes off with less than a full load of fuel but calculates he can get it at his destination safely. Then hits strong head winds which use up more time and fuel then lands and since he didn't check Notams doesn't realized the field is out of Fuel so rather than getting a room figures he can get to point C if he leans it well. Then Putt Sputter, pops Sputter. he is dry and dead stick at 4K. You can't say which thing caused the fuel exhaustion. Take one item out and he is ok perhaps.

In the Katamah incident. Deafness didn't cause the accident. But was it his lack of attention to what was going on on the field? Rush to get to the Head? Failure to over fly the field to check the conditions,?inability to hear the CTAF and potential back taxi call? Lack of stall / spin awareness? lack of familiarity with the aircraft? anyone or all of them.

The way I understand it when examining an accident almost everything can be a factor.
 
Does a back-taxi have right-of-way over an aircraft on final? We back taxi at my airport but we always wait for aircraft on short final.

IMO, blocking a runway with vehicles that are not ACTUALLY working on the runway is bad news, too.
 
tom. said:
Does a back-taxi have right-of-way over an aircraft on final?
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The answer depend on how the back taxi aircraft got into that position. Is the back taxing aircraft a landing aircraft attempting to clear the runway for another landing aircraft? Or is it a departing aircraft positioning to the departure end of runway?

The first has right-of-way over a landing aircraft, the second does not.

Ref:

91.113(g)

(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface,except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach.
 
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