COVID-19: Masks and ventilation more effective than social distancing

dmspilot

dmspilot

Final Approach
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Estimating COVID-19 exposure in a classroom setting: A comparison between mathematical and numerical models featured
Physics of Fluids 33, 021904 (2021); https://doi.org/10.1063/5.0040755

"The risk from airborne SARS-CoV-2 exposure does not appear to be strongly correlated with the distance, and many of the peak exposures were observed outside of physical-distancing guidelines. This indicates that mask mandates, well designed HVAC systems, and the combination of exposure time with number of occupants are of increased importance compared to physical distancing."
 
This seems to be the reversal of what was said just two months ago.

What was it that Mark Twain said?
 
I'm about to get seriously political.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I'm about to get seriously political.
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If you’re about to say what I suspect you’re about to say, then no one should take you seriously. ;)
 
At my University we've combined a mask mandate with physical distancing and lots and lots of hand sanitizer. Students are checked twice weekly. Last I checked there hadn't been one instance of transmission in a classroom (students with COVID are contact traced). I don't care what some dips hit computer model says. What we do works.
 
My personal thought is that by May if you don’t have a vaccination that’s on you. Where I’m located, anybody who wants a vaccination can have one by walking up to the Walgreen and asking for your Covid shot.
 
EdFred said:
I ignored the social distancing and mask mandates (had group get-togethers all summer fall and winter), and no one in our group of 25-50 got it. I guess we don't need to do what a computer model says either.
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Aside from washing my hands a little more frequently and wearing the required mask at work, I never really did anything different. I came to work every day with hundreds of people. I took my plane on the trips. If the plane needed servicing myself and my ANP worked on it, side by side. My wife is a Covid ward nurse. stayed in the same house with the same routine as before. I have to give her credit. she never freaked out or went over the deep end like several of my friends.
 
steingar said:
At my University we've combined a mask mandate with physical distancing and lots and lots of hand sanitizer. Students are checked twice weekly. Last I checked there hadn't been one instance of transmission in a classroom (students with COVID are contact traced). I don't care what some dips hit computer model says. What we do works.
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Does the staff get tested twice weekly?
 
Morgan3820 said:
Does the staff get tested twice weekly?
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Nope. I don't know how often the staff are tested. They want to test faculty weekly, though I've begged off. I felt going to the testing center was one of the more dangerous things I've done lately in terms of COVID transmission. Lots of students far too nearby.

We're in a race between vaccines and transmission. From what I've seen people are congregating pretty freely, so if the vaccines don't make serious inroads we're going to have another surge and lots of folks are going to die.
 
steingar said:
Nope. I don't know how often the staff are tested. They want to test faculty weekly, though I've begged off.
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Must be nice. too bad the students don’t have the same option. I’ve never understood why the US higher education system can treat their customers i.e. the students like second class citizens while treating the tenured staff like royalty.
My daughter is in her third year bio chemistry degree. Through all of this. I’m appalled at how Craven and worthless the teaching staff is and how little thought they give to the education of the students. I don’t see how you can get a bio chemistry degree and not have labs. No break on tuition cost either. When my daughter gets a good score on the MCATs it won’t because of any help from the faculty.
 
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steingar said:
Nope. I don't know how often the staff are tested. They want to test faculty weekly, though I've begged off. I felt going to the testing center was one of the more dangerous things I've done lately in terms of COVID transmission. Lots of students far too nearby.
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So testing the students twice a week works, but testing the faculty regularly doesn't.

That's ridiculous, Michael. Even for you.
 
I have never been tested, never been exposed to the people doing the testing.

I've been at work in person since this started, exposed to hundreds of people day, at least 800 people on campus, sharing bathrooms spaces, office spaces, cafeteria spaces, production spaces .... No symptoms...
 
Morgan3820 said:
I’m appalled at how Craven and worthless the teaching staff is and how little thought they give to the education of the students.
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Morgan3820 said:
I’ve never understood why the US higher education system can treat their customers i.e. the students like second class citizens while treating the tenured staff like royalty.
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And trust me, as a recent college graduate, I can assure you that the students pick up on all of the double standards that go on.
 
dmspilot said:
Estimating COVID-19 exposure in a classroom setting: A comparison between mathematical and numerical models featured
Physics of Fluids 33, 021904 (2021); https://doi.org/10.1063/5.0040755

"The risk from airborne SARS-CoV-2 exposure does not appear to be strongly correlated with the distance, and many of the peak exposures were observed outside of physical-distancing guidelines. This indicates that mask mandates, well designed HVAC systems, and the combination of exposure time with number of occupants are of increased importance compared to physical distancing."
Click to expand...
In other words, distancing alone isn't super useful indoors. I doubt many epidemiologists (I'm not one, BTW) would disagree with that. You need distancing and masks and limited exposure time, which is why opening restaurants for indoor dining anywhere with a significant caseload is such a boneheaded idea. It's the same way that we have multiple layers of protection flying (the "Swiss cheese model").

In any case, if you're having a hard time (and it's OK — lots of people are), try to hold on a little longer, and reach out for help if you need it. There's a good chance we'll be mostly out of this by the fall (in Canada and the US) if we don't do anything too stupid or premature in the meantime.
 
David Megginson said:
In other words, distancing alone isn't super useful indoors. I doubt many epidemiologists (I'm not one, BTW) would disagree with that. You need distancing and masks and limited exposure time, which is why opening restaurants for indoor dining anywhere with a significant caseload is such a boneheaded idea. It's the same way that we have multiple layers of protection flying (the "Swiss cheese model").

In any case, if you're having a hard time (and it's OK — lots of people are), try to hold on a little longer, and reach out for help if you need it. There's a good chance we'll be mostly out of this by the fall (in Canada and the US) if we don't do anything too stupid or premature in the meantime.
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The fall?! I am having a mask burning cookout the first weekend in May. All are invited. I am done.
 
David Megginson said:
In other words, distancing alone isn't super useful indoors. I doubt many epidemiologists (I'm not one, BTW) would disagree with that. You need distancing and masks and limited exposure time, which is why opening restaurants for indoor dining anywhere with a significant caseload is such a boneheaded idea. It's the same way that we have multiple layers of protection flying (the "Swiss cheese model").

In any case, if you're having a hard time (and it's OK — lots of people are), try to hold on a little longer, and reach out for help if you need it. There's a good chance we'll be mostly out of this by the fall (in Canada and the US) if we don't do anything too stupid or premature in the meantime.
Click to expand...

Not so sure it's so boneheaded. If you are or live with someone who is at risk....don't go. "But it's so unffffaaaaaiiirrrrrr," I know.
 
Morgan3820 said:
Must be nice. too bad the students don’t have the same option. I’ve never understood why the US higher education system can treat their customers i.e. the students like second class citizens while treating the tenured staff like royalty.
My daughter is in her third year bio chemistry degree. Through all of this. I’m appalled at how Craven and worthless the teaching staff is and how little thought they give to the education of the students. I don’t see how you can get a bio chemistry degree and not have labs. No break on tuition cost either. When my daughter gets a good score on the MCATs it won’t because of any help from the faculty.
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I feel the need to inject a little perspective... Faculty are not a monolithic entity. We're all different. In my department, the debate over "what to do about labs" created a rift from which it will be difficult to recover. (I, for one, argued for insisting on some in-person presence in lab courses or to not do them at all. I'd be in the lab right now if I hadn't become immunocompromised myself.)

Secondly, faculty are not always given a choice. For instance, at my university we had to apply for permission to do anything face-to-face (even things like giving exams), citing a justification for why it could not be done any other way. When I did this for my classes, some of my requests were granted, but some were denied. There's a lot that goes on behind the scenes at the administrative level -- *especially* related to COVID procedures and health and safety -- that faculty have no control over. We are not in charge of setting tuition either.

Yes, I have seen some of my fellow faculty use the pandemic and the forced-online thing as an excuse to slack off. But there are also good ones out there, who care deeply about students and education. Encourage your daughter to actively seek them out.
 
steingar said:
Nope. I don't know how often the staff are tested. They want to test faculty weekly, though I've begged off. I felt going to the testing center was one of the more dangerous things I've done lately in terms of COVID transmission. Lots of students far too nearby.

We're in a race between vaccines and transmission. From what I've seen people are congregating pretty freely, so if the vaccines don't make serious inroads we're going to have another surge and lots of folks are going to die.
Click to expand...
My university tested everyone with the frequency based on how much on-campus time you had. Lived in the dorms or accessed campus >2x/week you had to get tested 2x/week. Accessed campus 1-2x/week you had to get tested 1x/week. Accessed campus more sporadically than that, had to have a test within the previous 7 days of accessing campus. This was for faculty, staff, students, and contractors, i.e. everyone. They developed an app within a few weeks of starting the testing program that made it very simple: show up at one of the two testing centers, scan your barcode, do the swab, get your results in 12-24 hours. Keycard access was tied to your testing status and a daily attestation that you were symptom free and COVID contact free. No test or attestation, couldn't open the doors. Also access was locked down to specific buildings that you had a reason to access. Couldn't go wandering the buildings as in pre-covid times.

Worked out quite well for us...
 
kath said:
I feel the need to inject a little perspective... Faculty are not a monolithic entity. We're all different. In my department, the debate over "what to do about labs" created a rift from which it will be difficult to recover. (I, for one, argued for insisting on some in-person presence in lab courses or to not do them at all. I'd be in the lab right now if I hadn't become immunocompromised myself.)

Secondly, faculty are not always given a choice. For instance, at my university we had to apply for permission to do anything face-to-face (even things like giving exams), citing a justification for why it could not be done any other way. When I did this for my classes, some of my requests were granted, but some were denied. There's a lot that goes on behind the scenes at the administrative level -- *especially* related to COVID procedures and health and safety -- that faculty have no control over. We are not in charge of setting tuition either.

Yes, I have seen some of my fellow faculty use the pandemic and the forced-online thing as an excuse to slack off. But there are also good ones out there, who care deeply about students and education. Encourage your daughter to actively seek them out.
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No doubt there is a spectrum of functionality or disfunctionality as the case may be. But I still feel that my daughter and her fellow student’s education were and continue to be treated as an afterthought. Only her Latin prof held in person classes. I am proud of her beyond measure. Keeping a 3.95 in normal circumstances is an accomplishment . Doing it under these circumstances of “distance-learning “is truly astonishing.
 
David Megginson said:
In other words, distancing alone isn't super useful indoors. I doubt many epidemiologists (I'm not one, BTW) would disagree with that. You need distancing and masks and limited exposure time, which is why opening restaurants for indoor dining anywhere with a significant caseload is such a boneheaded idea. It's the same way that we have multiple layers of protection flying (the "Swiss cheese model").

In any case, if you're having a hard time (and it's OK — lots of people are), try to hold on a little longer, and reach out for help if you need it. There's a good chance we'll be mostly out of this by the fall (in Canada and the US) if we don't do anything too stupid or premature in the meantime.
Click to expand...


one comment: masks are not all created equal. A bandanna covering the nose and mouth is useless. An N95 is about as good as it gets, if properly fitted and used correctly.
 
Ted said:
So testing the students twice a week works, but testing the faculty regularly doesn't.

That's ridiculous, Michael. Even for you.
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Ted, I walk into work alone every day. I am alone in my office and see no one. I teach remotely except one class, and I sit in the back and keep away from all (it's based on student presentations, which most are doing very well. By the way, I designed this class). I see almost no one and go almost no where, except to the hangar to fly the airplane alone and to get booze at a cheap store. And there I stay well distanced. Indeed if they're at all busy I beg off. The only place I have been unable to sufficiently distance was getting the damn COVID test that I knew I didn't need. Because I was unable to stay distanced I blew it off after one test and don't feel the least bit bad about it. The students are tested because they live on campus, and the University needs to do what it can to stop the spread of the disease. To be honest, the University is doing a great job at it. I don't really need it because I never come anywhere near close enough to anyone to transmit the virus even if I had it, which I don't.
 
Bob Noel said:
one comment: masks are not all created equal. A bandanna covering the nose and mouth is useless. An N95 is about as good as it gets, if properly fitted and used correctly.
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The point of a mask really isn't to protect you. It won't work for that anyway. The point of a mask is to prevent you from infecting others should you be infected and asymptomatic. The mask decelerates and catches some of the aerosols coming out of your mouth. It is true, N95>surgical mask>bandana, but they all have their part. Better a bandana than nothing.
 
steingar said:
Ted, I walk into work alone every day. I am alone in my office and see no one. I teach remotely except one class, and I sit in the back and keep away from all (it's based on student presentations, which most are doing very well. By the way, I designed this class). I see almost no one and go almost no where, except to the hangar to fly the airplane alone and to get booze at a cheap store. And there I stay well distanced. Indeed if they're at all busy I beg off. The only place I have been unable to sufficiently distance was getting the damn COVID test that I knew I didn't need. Because I was unable to stay distanced I blew it off after one test and don't feel the least bit bad about it. The students are tested because they live on campus, and the University needs to do what it can to stop the spread of the disease. To be honest, the University is doing a great job at it. I don't really need it because I never come anywhere near close enough to anyone to transmit the virus even if I had it, which I don't.
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Sounds like a miserable existence.
 
steingar said:
Bob, one of these days you'll realize that there are people who know things you don't.
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steingar said:
The only place I have been unable to sufficiently distance was getting the damn COVID test that I knew I didn't need. Because I was unable to stay distanced I blew it off after one test and don't feel the least bit bad about it.
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There is very definitely a certain level of insanity in making an entire college community congregate in close quarters on a regular basis for the purpose of testing them to determine which, if any, of them may be infected in the name of preventing spread of a disease that is transmitted through respiration. I understand your objection.
 
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