Could I ignite a helium balloon by shooting a model rocket at it?

Gunpowder won't burn fast enough in open air to make an explosion, especially when surrounded by an inert gas.

Plain old baking flour will explode more readily, believe it or not. Coffee creamer would be the best bang for the buck- pun totally intended!
 
Smokeless powder and gunpowder both have burn rates that depend on pressure, but more so for smokeless. At atmospheric pressure, both are more what I would call a vigorous burn. And yes, powdered particulate fires like flower or creamer are much more energetic at atmospheric pressure.
 
G-Man said:
I have a poorly thought-out plan to send a GoPro and old iPhone into nearly kinda outer space, like 100,000 feetup. Even talked with the FAA about the plan. I just need a balloon and some helium. Less risk of explosions, but perhaps good B Roll for your videos.
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Here is the balloon site that makes the best balloons for this.
http://kaymontballoons.com/
Can check out my site
http://anthracitehab.com/index.htm

If your are serious can PM me. I’ve helped the local school science teachers get these ideas off the ground. Might get one set up this winter to be ready for spring.
 
If you mix the hydrogen and oxygen properly you won't even need the rocket for it to blow up.
 
ScottM said:
Helium (He) is a Noble Gas and is NOT, I repeat NOT FLAMMABLE!
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A noble gas for an ignoble situation?

Hey Bryan, a little calcium carbide and water in that balloon might be good as well.

Oh, and bonus points if you do this at RR dam flyin next year!!!
 
PaulS said:
If you mix the hydrogen and oxygen properly you won't even need the rocket for it to blow up.
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From what I remember from my chem class we still needed a spark to get it to go boom.
 
Bryan, Im not saying I have a lot of gunpowder and may or may not own an oxy / acetylene rig where you can get some gas, but you might wanna come over to discuss this event...
 
EdFred said:
Which is going to come from where?
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it doesn't have to be a spark.....heat energy is what's needed to begin the combustion event.

Remember the diesel engine?....and the lack of spark plugs, but they run.
 
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Hydrogen. Or acetylene/oxygen combo. Attach electronic grill igniter (not a piezo, but a battery powered one) and a timer or remote control.

Answer door when ATF comes knocking.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
it doesn't have to be a spark.....heat energy is what's needed to begin the combustion event.

Remember the diesel engine?....and the lack of spark plugs, but they run.
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He's not launching a diesel engine though. Where is the heat going to come from in a balloon that only contains H2 and O2 and forgoing the rocket ?

Pretty sure a balloon that's got the right combo of H2 and O2 won't get off the ground though considering water balloons don't float in the air.
 
EdFred said:
He's not launching a diesel engine though. Where is the heat going to come from in a balloon that only contains H2 and O2 and forgoing the rocket ?

Pretty sure a balloon that's got the right combo of H2 and O2 won't get off the ground though considering water balloons don't float in the air.
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well....it will launch if ignited. :D
 
Scary how many folks here know how to make home made.... uh..... noise makers.

I am staying out of this conversation...:yesnod:
 
SCCutler said:
So, like, the dumbest thing ever would be to get one of those weather balloons and inflate it to about 8 feet around, and sealing it with a lantern battery, a piece of PVC, and a lightbulb such that the entire "globe" is lit up brightly, then release it in the middle of Dallas, to climb to uncertain heights and create a potential hazard to aerial navigation.

It would be even dumber to do it three times in a row.

I never did that. But I saw it done.
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For extra credit, put a large piece of aluminum foil in or underneath it, big enough to make a nice primary RADAR target.
 
EdFred said:
He's not launching a diesel engine though. Where is the heat going to come from in a balloon that only contains H2 and O2 and forgoing the rocket ?

Pretty sure a balloon that's got the right combo of H2 and O2 won't get off the ground though considering water balloons don't float in the air.
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Lets see.... at STP
2 mol H2 -> 4 grams
1 mol O2 -> 32 grams
Total is 3 mol at 36 grams total mass
1 mol = 22.4 L @ STP
so we now have 36 g in 67.2 L
or 36 g in 0.0672 m3
35/0.0672 -> 536 g / m3 -> 0.536 kg/m3
Air has a density of 1.225 kg/m3

Seems like it would float to me. Liquid water is much denser than the gaseous reactants.

As for the heat source, the OP was intending to shoot a rocket; presumably, he wants the rocket to explode at the same time it hits the balloon. The explosion would set it off, assuming he has the timing right and he manages to aim it. You can generate the heat in other ways, too: hot wire (glow plug, for example), an exothermic chemical reaction which creates enough heat to raise the temperature, etc. I've seen hydrogen lit off when sodium metal reacts with water; the reaction can reach a temperature sufficiently high that the hydrogen burns.
 
ScottM said:
Helium (He) is a Noble Gas and is NOT, I repeat NOT FLAMMABLE!
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Well ...

It might light up if you compressed and heated it with the aid of an atom bomb? Would that be mission creep?
 
Jeff Oslick said:
Some of ya'all are gonna get a visit soon from ATF....
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Wouldn't it be great if "ATF" was actually a convenience store?


... w/ apologies to the comedian who originally came up with that line.. can't remember who it was.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
For extra credit, put a large piece of aluminum foil in or underneath it, big enough to make a nice primary RADAR target.
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Or get an eight foot weather balloon and paint it silver with aluminum paint. Then get a deep sea fishing rod loaded with 2500 feet of line and let it rise into the final approach path of a particular Naval Airfield. You too might see a UFO report in the paper the next morning!
 
Skip Miller said:
See the movies of the crash of the hydrogen containing Hindenburg zeppelin disaster in Lakehurst, NJ in 1937. It didn't explode; it burned. Oh the huge Manatee!
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And they hydrogen itself burning isn't very visible. The spectacular stuff you see in that film is the envelope burning as a result.
 
Damn, Six PC - the man is keeping you down. They're clearly out to thwart you!
IMG_20190921_084920771_HDR.jpg
 
Jim K said:
I recommend hydrogen.
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Definitely. Helium is gonna be pretty freaking boring, unless you're just trying to pop the balloon. If you want fire and/or explosions, you need oxygen, and even if you have something self-oxidizing like solid rocket fuel, having helium in the vicinity is not going to help.

You want hydrogen, and I would recommend having some oxygen mixed in. If you have enough balloons, try several different mixtures. If you have a perfect stoichiometric mixture (and I would recommend talking with @Cap'n Jack about how to fill a balloon to that mixture), you'll get the most "Boom". The richer the mixture (more hydrogen, less oxygen), the bigger/longer the fireball and the less boom. 100% hydrogen will give you a several-second fireball but the only boom you'll get will be the balloon popping.

I would suggest adding some flammable solids like magnesium for greater effect, but definitely talk to the chemists here about how to add those materials as safely as possible. Y'know, like, put the oxygen in last. IIRC it comes in a liquid to keep it from oxidizing, and that liquid is some kind of oil, which also might not take too kindly to adding pure oxygen... But yeah, talk to the chemists first. And wear protective equipment and be sure your next of kin know how to recover and edit the video. :eek:


Bill Jennings said:
800px-Cluster_Ballooning.jpg


Do it
Dooo it
Doooooo eeeeeeet!
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There was a guy who did that at Oshkosh several years ago... And yes, he had to apply for an Experimental airworthiness certificate, be licensed for Lighter-Than-Air - Gas Balloon, and yes, have an N number affixed to his lawn chair.

OneCharlieTango said:
Maybe try the first one on or near the ground? I suspect the rocket will boink off the balloon.
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I was thinking that a pin in the nose cone would be a good addition to the rocket.

Checkout_my_Six said:
it doesn't have to be a spark.....heat energy is what's needed to begin the combustion event.

Remember the diesel engine?....and the lack of spark plugs, but they run.
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The heat isn't going to be there until the rocket engine gets there. If you're filling a balloon, yes the pressure will rise inside compared to atmospheric, but presumably @SixPapaCharlie is going to be getting these gases from tanks where they will be under much higher pressure than they will be in the balloon. Because of the huge pressure drop from being inside the tank to being in the balloon, the contents of the balloon are going to be quite cool to start with.
 
Jonathan Trappe is the name of the cluster balloonist. He was actually in my private pilot ground school around 12 years ago. Our club helped him launch one afternoon south of Raleigh. When I say helped, it was grabbing a balloon that someone else inflated and walking it over to him while he put the rig together.

As I recall, he did a bunch of appearances for Disney during the Up movie promotion and eventually flew across the English Channel. I’ve lost track of what he did afterwards.
 
If the balloon has a big enough mouth, a balloon filled with acetylene could be placed into it before filling it with helium. I'm pretty sure an impact with a burning rocket would make a nice reaction, as long as you hit the inner balloon.

There are ways to ensure that inner balloon pops also...
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Definitely. Helium is gonna be pretty freaking boring, unless you're just trying to pop the balloon. If you want fire and/or explosions, you need oxygen, and even if you have something self-oxidizing like solid rocket fuel, having helium in the vicinity is not going to help.

You want hydrogen, and I would recommend having some oxygen mixed in. If you have enough balloons, try several different mixtures. If you have a perfect stoichiometric mixture (and I would recommend talking with @Cap'n Jack about how to fill a balloon to that mixture), you'll get the most "Boom". The richer the mixture (more hydrogen, less oxygen), the bigger/longer the fireball and the less boom. 100% hydrogen will give you a several-second fireball but the only boom you'll get will be the balloon popping.

I would suggest adding some flammable solids like magnesium for greater effect, but definitely talk to the chemists here about how to add those materials as safely as possible. Y'know, like, put the oxygen in last. IIRC it comes in a liquid to keep it from oxidizing, and that liquid is some kind of oil, which also might not take too kindly to adding pure oxygen... But yeah, talk to the chemists first. And wear protective equipment and be sure your next of kin know how to recover and edit the video. :eek:




There was a guy who did that at Oshkosh several years ago... And yes, he had to apply for an Experimental airworthiness certificate, be licensed for Lighter-Than-Air - Gas Balloon, and yes, have an N number affixed to his lawn chair.



I was thinking that a pin in the nose cone would be a good addition to the rocket.



The heat isn't going to be there until the rocket engine gets there. If you're filling a balloon, yes the pressure will rise inside compared to atmospheric, but presumably @SixPapaCharlie is going to be getting these gases from tanks where they will be under much higher pressure than they will be in the balloon. Because of the huge pressure drop from being inside the tank to being in the balloon, the contents of the balloon are going to be quite cool to start with.
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I think you have the magnesium confused with sodium or another group I metal; I buy it as ribbons or powder. Maybe it will make sparkles.

As for igniting it, most small rockets (I think) burn their fuel and coast for a while on momentum. This means there isn't really a flame during this period of flight. They have some sort of internal fusing for exploding (fireworks) or kicking off a parachute or next stage (models). So lighting off the hydrogen is going to require some timing as well as aim, if I'm correct.
 
Magnesium would make brillian white hot flames once you get it to burn. It's the stuff they put in flash bulbs and they used to dump some into our training fires back in the day. Putting water on it makes it worse as the fire burns so hot it disassociates the water
 
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