Cost of owning A fixed vs. retract

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MRSpad

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Michael
I am considering selling my fixed gear 4 place Beech for a retract gear 4 place Mooney. The big question is how much more this will cost annually. Will the annual inspection be double, triple or more? Will my insurance double, triple or more, at least for the first year. I am not looking for hard numbers, just best guess.
 
As an example- a lowish time pilot (<400h) can get fixed gear PA32 insurance for $2500-3500/yr. Policies for retractable PA32 same year, etc, if you can find a company to write one, are going $7500 and up for same pilot. Obviously this doesn't apply apples to oranges for Beech/Mooney, just an example of the insurance delta for fixed gear vs retractable in same airframe.
 
According to my IA, the annual cost on my 182-RG wasn't that much more than the annual on a fixed gear 182. But that's for the inspection. I had brake swivel fitting that had to be replaced. At the time, they were about $500 each. Fortunately, never had to replace the actuators. I hear that if you can find them, they're $10,000+. I have heard that the Mooney retract system (at least on the older models) is a very simple mechanism.

My insurance data would be over 10 years old so probably not very helpful.
 
Having hours in retracts will help a lot. One way to get those hours is to buy the Mooney and spend your first 50 hours in it with a CFII working on an instrument rating. The rating and the hours of dual in the plane will do wonders for your insurance.

Maintenance isn’t usually bad, just one more system to maintain compared with a fixed gear plane.

If your mission is long enough to benefit from the speed of the Mooney, don’t be afraid to get one.
 
Not knowing your age ,tough to guess what the insurance would be,the mooney gear is fairly simple system if properly maintained. If you have a need for speed go with the Mooney
 
MRSpad said:
I am considering selling my fixed gear 4 place Beech for a retract gear 4 place Mooney. The big question is how much more this will cost annually. Will the annual inspection be double, triple or more? Will my insurance double, triple or more, at least for the first year. I am not looking for hard numbers, just best guess.
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3y ago as a brand new PPL with 56h when I was comparing 182s versus Piper Arrows (and I had 2hrs complex time - so effectively none), the 182 was HALF the insurance price or the arrow.

I bought the arrow because I love hitting the gear lever after takeoff... And I just like arrows.

After logging some experience in it now my insurance cost has been cut down from $3700/yr to about $2100 (now at 600 TT and 550 complex). Still a little more than what the 182 was quoted, but good luck getting a 182 for what you can get an arrow for.

I'd say get the retract. Yes your insurance will be more the first/second year, maybe even by a lot... But it will come down as you log time in it, and then you'll always have complex time. And the premium you pay in insurance will probably be a minor component of overall ownership expense.
 
I shopped Cherokee Sixes and Lances about 3 years ago. At that time, hull value being the same, the retract was about double, 2000 vs 4000. My insurance hasn't really come down, but I've been raising my hull value. I've heard of guys recently having a hard time even getting quoted on a retract without an IR.

The piper gear is pretty simple. I'd guess it adds $500 or so to my annual inspiration. I've probably spent $5k on it over three years, but it was pretty neglected when I got it, and most of that was in the first year.

All in all I'm glad I got the lance over the Six. Assuming it's 20 knots faster, that's 9000 more NM I've covered in 450hr. The Six would take another 70 hours to cover that distance. At $200/ hour, I've saved $14,000. At least that what I tell myself :biggrin:

Several mooney guys here who can tell you what the gotchas are. Coffee and donuts as I understand it.
 
A Mooney with 4 plus and some stuff something has to go, or you're limited to less gas. Long trips are certainly doable, just with more fuel stops, but to address room, the M20M, R, and TN have the most room.
 
MRSpad said:
I am considering selling my fixed gear 4 place Beech for a retract gear 4 place Mooney.
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Everyone is focusing on the gear since that was how you framed the question, but I suspect you’re also going from a fixed prop to a constant speed, so you’ll also have some additional maintenance expense there.

Which baby Beech do you have? @Afterburner Blowout might be looking for one.
 
Jim K said:
I shopped Cherokee Sixes and Lances about 3 years ago. At that time, hull value being the same, the retract was about double, 2000 vs 4000.
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Exactly my experience, as well. I was turning 70 the year I was shopping for a PA-32, and despite my 4500+ hours total, 1000+ in retractables, 200+ in retractable PA-32R Saratogas, instrument rating and clean 50-year flying record, some companies wouldn't quote me in the Lance at all. I wound up buying a fixed-gear Six.

I guess since 70-year-olds can't be trusted to remember to turn off the left turn blinker on the freeway, they figure we'll forget the landing gear, too.
 
My experience may not mean much to you as I'm in Canada but I would say our GA system is very similar to the U.S. When I went from fixed gear Cherokee to retract Comanche as a 400 hours total time pilot, insurance didn't go up by much (just a few dollars). To this day I believe they made a mistake in the quote and ultimately policy they sent me, but on the policy document, everything looks correct, so I take it. When it comes to annual inspections, same thing, the actual inspection didn't cost a whole lot more than on the Cherokee. What does add some $$$ is maintaining the gear properly. Changing bungees when they're due. Doing gear specific AD work when it's due. Those things add up over time, or so I heard.
 
I’d say that both the insurance and annual is going to be roughly double that of a fixed gear counterpart. Of course you can probably find a cheaper mechanic, but I couldn’t. Also I want the convenience of my mechanic, comes to my hangar and takes care of everything. I don’t have to drive to the airport or fly the airplane elsewhere (and arrange a ride back and there) to get any repairs done. I just send a text message.
 
Not knowing where you’re from, I’d say the annual will run $1500-2500.
Mooney donuts need to be replaced about every 20 years or so, more frequently with heavier models, probably a $2500 job these days. Then there’s the gear box, it also needs an occasional overhaul and has a back spring that needs replacing, typically a once every 20 years job, probably another $2500 job.
The constant speed prop overhaul will be more expensive, maybe $5000 today, maybe twice the price of a fixed prop?

So assuming 20 years between landing gear work, that’s $375/yr extra expenses not counting annuals. About the cost of filling the tanks with avgas.
 
I forgot to mention that usually retract is faster and burns less fuel per mile. So you save money in that aspect.
 
mandm said:
I forgot to mention that usually retract is faster and burns less fuel per mile. So you save money in that aspect.
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Usually its either: faster, but same fuel mileage, or slow it down and get fantastic gas mileage...at least with mine.

Funny, I've always run my Mooney at 75%, but just a couple of days ago, I was flying without purpose to "nowhere in particular" and I throttled it waaaay back in level flight -- literally my first time ever (throttled way lower than my performance charts show)...all I can say is "Wow!" I was flying at Cessna 172 speeds, with Piper cub fuel burn!
 
Yeah if I go to 10k+, I’ll get at least 130mph at 6gph or so.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
3y ago as a brand new PPL with 56h when I was comparing 182s versus Piper Arrows (and I had 2hrs complex time - so effectively none), the 182 was HALF the insurance price or the arrow.

I bought the arrow because I love hitting the gear lever after takeoff... And I just like arrows.

After logging some experience in it now my insurance cost has been cut down from $3700/yr to about $2100 (now at 600 TT and 550 complex). Still a little more than what the 182 was quoted, but good luck getting a 182 for what you can get an arrow for.

I'd say get the retract. Yes your insurance will be more the first/second year, maybe even by a lot... But it will come down as you log time in it, and then you'll always have complex time. And the premium you pay in insurance will probably be a minor component of overall ownership expense.
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At what kind of hull values?

1968 C177 just broke $1k premium at $90k hull last year. Two named pilots (both longtime C177 veterans), no IFR.
 
Arrows: the hydraulic power pack typically lasts 10 years and I just replaced mine for 4k.
 
Don’t forget to factor in the inevitable gear-up landing.....

:devil:
 
Half Fast said:
Don’t forget to factor in the inevitable gear-up landing.....

:devil:
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Insurance covers that.

A lot depends on the hull value for insurance cost. But don't under insure. You may end up with a check and no plane and the check isn't enough to buy another one.

I can't see a retract annual being twice fixed gear, unless there are repairs. The added cost for the annual to put the plane on jacks and cycle the gear and emergency extension.
 
Jim K said:
I shopped Cherokee Sixes and Lances about 3 years ago. At that time, hull value being the same, the retract was about double, 2000 vs 4000. My insurance hasn't really come down, but I've been raising my hull value. I've heard of guys recently having a hard time even getting quoted on a retract without an IR.

The piper gear is pretty simple. I'd guess it adds $500 or so to my annual inspiration. I've probably spent $5k on it over three years, but it was pretty neglected when I got it, and most of that was in the first year.

All in all I'm glad I got the lance over the Six. Assuming it's 20 knots faster, that's 9000 more NM I've covered in 450hr. The Six would take another 70 hours to cover that distance. At $200/ hour, I've saved $14,000. At least that what I tell myself :biggrin:

Several mooney guys here who can tell you what the gotchas are. Coffee and donuts as I understand it.
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And I've spent 5k every year for 3 years. I like to spend money on props and gear. You like spending money on engines.
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
And I've spent 5k every year for 3 years. I like to spend money on props and gear. You like spending money on engines.
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Oh, I wouldn't say I like it...
 
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