Correct Pathway to take

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KramerK

Filing Flight Plan
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Damon
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First, as an outsider looking in, what pilots accomplish in going through this entire process is amazing. I recently had an opportunity to fly with a friend and instantly became hooked.

I've read as many threads as I could about trainers, PPL, etc. as possible. However, I in applying my facts I was hoping for a bit of guidance :).

Ultimately, if I'm going to go down this route, I would like to be able to fly my family (6 people including myself). Looking at planes that can accommodate my family seems to be in the Piper Lance or Saratoga class (I am sure there are others to consider and welcome recommendations). (Flying 6 people commercial can easily crest 3-4k per trip, especially in IN, so we drive everywhere right now.)

I plan to buy rather than rent (cost benefit on my end).

Questions:
1) I'm getting anything this big will require a IFR and complex rating, prior to actually flying this class of aircraft?
2) What would be a good aircraft to buy that I could easily get to the level required to step into that class of aircraft?
3) Is the correct process PPL/IFR/Complex? And should I get CFI somewhere in there?

Again, I am about 1 week into research but haven't found all of the answers.

Many thanks!
 
You won’t need an IFR, but an IFR will allow you to complete more flights. High performance and complex are just endorsements and not that big of a deal to obtain after your PPL.
 
Ha I've seen that before. It's interesting to see the people who do that. This is a forum for like minded people, yet that seems to be a default. If you don't want to help, don't respond. Like I tell my employees - I'd rather you ask a question and move further down the road than waste hours combing through thousands of pages of crap. Google's kinda like that don't ya think?
 
Also a search on here will results in a bunch of the same thing you’re asking. But whatever, do it your way.
 
Welcome to aviating! :)

One of the early lessons will be weight and balance. Every plane has something called a Useful Load, which is how much fuel, people, and bags it can carry. That Useful Load number is almost never enough to fill all the seats and carry enough fuel to fly very far. Count on leaving 2 seats empty unless your family is all small. So for your family of 6, you're looking at a real load hauler, and I'm not aware of any single-engine piston plane that would fit the bill. Turboprops that will do it are super expensive ($3M+)

There are quite a few twin engine planes that would do it, but you're still looking at the bigger ones and they're pretty expensive to operate ($300-$400/hr).

You have the process basically right. PPL comes first. Complex isn't a rating, but an endorsement, and you can do that at any point after PPL. Usually takes 5-10 hours, depending on insurance requirements. You can do the IFR or Multi Engine rating in either order, but most do the IFR first.
 
Here's a true PoA-like answer for you:

If you've got the budget, by the Bo. A-36 Bonanza will take care of you quite well.

For less money, you said Lance and Saratoga. But you could go with a Cherokee 6 and then you only need HP and not Complex. It's the straight legged 6 six seat plane.
 
Take it one step at a time. In aviation, the pathways don't diverge that much. Don't look too far down the road. Take your discovery flight, get your medical and start a couple lessons. After that, load up on student gear.

As for #3, you need commercial before CFI.
 
Thanks Eric and Ravioli.

Right now kids are 30, 40, 80, 110lbs. Wife is 110. Gas was the wildcard for me, thinking useful capacity would be after gas. DOH.

Understanding the endorsements (thank you for clarifying) is the difficult part. But ultimately, I'm guessing get something easy to train and then trade up once I have the hours.
 
Also - one question I meant to ask for those that look beyond - the flight schools I've been looking at sell Cesna training programs. Is it better to go through a school or just find an instructor with the plane?
 
I think a good rule of thumb number to plan how much fuel you'd need to carry is about 15 gallons an hour for a single, or about 30 gallons an hour for a twin. Fuel is 6 lbs/gal, so about 90/180 lbs/hr. Plus a 1 hour reserve. Call it 400 lbs of gas in a single or 800 in a twin.

The next concept you're going to have to understand is the balance part of weight & balance. A plane needs its center of gravity (CG) to be within a certain range in order to be stable in flight. Some planes have a wide CG range (Cessnas and Pipers, particularly) that make it easy to use that whole useful load. Some planes have a narrow range that make it hard to use that useful load because the CG moves too far back as you put more stuff back there (Bonanzas in particular).

An A36 is just barely going to get the job done now, and you'll probably outgrow it in a few years as the kids grow. A Cherokee 6 or Lance will get the job done for longer, but I think you're looking at buying a Baron (twin-engine version of Bonanza), Seneca (twin Lance), or Twin Bonanza (gigantic old twin, related to Bonanza in name only).

As for costs, it is rarely going to be cheaper to fly your own plane than it is to drive or fly coach. You're going to spend $10k a year owning a complex single, and it could easily be more. We do it because we value the adventure, the independence, and because it puts new destinations within reach. We do it because it's a unique skill, and maybe because we can't resist making airplane noises sometimes ;-)

Flying is far more demanding than driving. It's likely that you won't feel comfortable flying a plane full of your family until you've been at it a couple of years.
 
There are some that feel that "you should train in the plane you want to eventually own and fly." But personally, I'm more a fan of the "train in something small and cheap and basic to begin with, and move on to bigger planes later" philosophy. There is so much to learn about flying, and airplanes, that I can't imagine making such a big investment (six seats!) at the beginning when I hardly knew a rudder from an aileron or what the red knob does. But again, that's just me! You'll find all sorts of perspectives on here.

KramerK said:
Also - one question I meant to ask for those that look beyond - the flight schools I've been looking at sell Cesna training programs. Is it better to go through a school or just find an instructor with the plane?
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The "formal school" approach is called Part 141. The "guy with a plane" approach is called Part 61. Neither is better; they are just different in style. What kind of learning style do you like? Do you like structure (like "school", with quizzes and stage checks and stuff like that?)? Or can you just pick up a book and get what you need that way, together with a little extra guidance from a coach? Again, you'll find folks here who have done it both ways. I did the Cessna Pilot Center (Part 141) thing for private and instrument, but Part 61 for other certificates since.

I recommend taking a "Discovery Flight" at a local flight school. It's super-fun! No commitment necessary, and you can pester an instructor with all kinds of questions like this. Ask him or her about the "medical" process too, because that can be a doozy, and it's important to get a little self-education on before getting started.
 
Well I am more of a read it myself and ask questions type of person. I would like to just find a CFI with a plane and who wants the hours, but I haven't found any in my area. I have my discovery flight this weekend (if it doesn't rain out).
 
Independent CFIs can be tough to find. They're often busy enough that they don't need to advertise, but most airport offices have a bulletin board where you might find business cards or flyers. Ask around. Start another thread here including your location and see what suggestions you can get.

Flight schools often employ CFIs who are building time to go on to the airlines. It's relatively common to have your instructor disappear as soon as they have their required hours. That's probably the main disadvantage of going to a school. (I haven't seen one with organized ground school classes in a while. Most people I know study for the written on their own and ask questions when they see their instructor.) The main advantage is usually a bigger fleet of planes, so they will usually have one available for you.

The main advantage of an independent CFI is that they're probably not going to disappear on you. They often only have access to 1 plane to instruct in, though, so if that plane needs a repair it may be out of service for a couple of weeks when you need it.

Quality of instruction varies so widely that I don't think you can draw any conclusions. Some independent CFIs are excellent educators and keep things structured, while some are very loosey-goosey about it. CFIs at most schools operate relatively independently, so your experience with one instructor could be totally different than your experience with another at the same school.
 
In PoA fashion we would be remiss if we didn’t bring up the medical. Take a good look at your medical history, meds, and diagnoses as well as any criminal crap like DUI’s. If you’ve been scanning the forum you will see that these are major speed bumps.
With regards to mission. Sounds like you are looking at a twin in the long run. Unless your kids are smoking and drinking coffee, they are probably going to get bigger. Piston singles can do a lot but for that load plus the light travel luggage -you’ll be way overloaded.
So goals would be to just get flying!! Could always consider if time and money allow going to an immersive flight school to get the ppl and then work at home with CFI on the rest.
 
Appreciate the feedback.

Yes, I am working on medical application. No criminal issues, but medical is only asthma and sleep apena, both of which are very well controlled. No drug or booze problems, so hopefully the two medical issues won't be an issue.

I've looked at immersive flight schools, and while appealing, giving up 2 weeks away from family seems difficult. There's a full course here in Indy that goes from 0 to full pilot but don't know if they'd do just PPL.
 
KramerK said:
Appreciate the feedback.

Yes, I am working on medical application. No criminal issues, but medical is only asthma and sleep apena, both of which are very well controlled. No drug or booze problems, so hopefully the two medical issues won't be an issue.

I've looked at immersive flight schools, and while appealing, giving up 2 weeks away from family seems difficult. There's a full course here in Indy that goes from 0 to full pilot but don't know if they'd do just PPL.
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Sleep apnea has been a concern; search the medical issues forum.
 
KramerK said:
Appreciate the feedback.

Yes, I am working on medical application. No criminal issues, but medical is only asthma and sleep apena, both of which are very well controlled. No drug or booze problems, so hopefully the two medical issues won't be an issue.

I've looked at immersive flight schools, and while appealing, giving up 2 weeks away from family seems difficult. There's a full course here in Indy that goes from 0 to full pilot but don't know if they'd do just PPL.
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The sleep apnea will definitely be an obstacle. Not insurmountable, but an obstacle nonetheless. The FAA won't accept a statement from your doc that it's "well-managed." They'll require specific test results under specific conditions. You should absolutely not schedule a physical until you know that you have the info they're looking for. Your medical application will get stuck in bureaucracy and take forever to get approved, if it is. Some AMEs (aviation medical examiners) will let you schedule an appointment for an advisory so you can get all your ducks in a row. Some just treat these as cash cows like other industrial physicals and will be of no help to you.

There are also consultants available online who can help. Dr. Bruce Chien is the name most commonly mentioned on the forums.
 
If you're considering buying a plane, check with whomever you decide to learn from and make sure they are willing to teach in your plane. I had a 141 school refuse to teach me in my dad's plane because of insurance reasons.
 
Yes, I just got done reading the other forums. I will reach out to Dr. Bruce at some point to understand the process I needed. Unfortunately, I did my OSA testing over 15 years ago and don't know that I could find the test results if necessary. I do have the CPAP and 31+ days of results to show I use it, so I can get the required information other than the test.
 
Whatever you do, don't give up! Flying is about the most awesomest thing we can do!

There's an unwritten rule about airplane shopping: The 80% rule. Will your aeroplane do the mission you want it to do 80 percent of your adventures? For example, I wanted something that would punch through the clouds occasionally, fly me and my wife with 5 days of camping gear, and our bikes - one being a 29er. And I needed to pay cash for it, with about 20 percent of the value set aside for a big repair.

The cost of ownership can be broken down to a monthly cost and hourly one. This is much easier to do when you pick a plane. But, I budget $650 a month for hangar and insurance, $4k a year for maintenance to include the "oh sheet, that broke?" And $76 an hr operating costs for my plane, which does not include fuel @ 10 gal\hr. (This operating number is all the costs of replacing items that are time limited divided by hrs remaining. Ex, pilot cooling fan, $3k to overhaul. 1500hrs remain until that time, 3000/1500=2 bucks an hour figgered into my cost per hr to overhaul the prop.).

I'm not experienced with Basic Med, but a search on here will be a wise idea.
 
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Bear in mind that a plane where you can fill all the seats with people and go is very rare. Because of weight and balance, don't plan on 6 people = 6 seats.
 
Here’s my path: became a PPL this summer. I bought a smaller plane that is cheaper to operate to build time and experience in before moving up to a plane that could transport the whole family. My next step will be IFR, which makes one a safer pilot and ability to fly in more conditions.
 
Ben2k9 said:
Here’s my path: became a PPL this summer. I bought a smaller plane that is cheaper to operate to build time and experience in before moving up to a plane that could transport the whole family.
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Pictures or it didn't happen. AND -- explain this concept of a "cheaper plane" ;)
 
Ravioli said:
Pictures or it didn't happen. AND -- explain this concept of a "cheaper plane" ;)
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Everything is relative, right? Cheaper than a 6 seater plane that is equipped nicely enough to travel with the family. Cheaper to buy and operate.

So I bought a Flight Design CTLS. It’s cheaper to operate because it’s 120ktas on 5gph or so of mogas. Also being an LSA equipment/upgrades are much cheaper. It’s only a 2 seater though and incapable of IFR, so it’s not without its limitations. But good enough to get a toe in the airplane owning waters and build some time. I figure around 150 hours I start my IFR training.
 

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My advice, just get started! Ask here for recs for your specific area as to a flight school. If you can fly 3 or 4 times per week, you can knock out PPL fairly quickly, three months or less. Then rent, get some experience, and hone your skills. Be patient. Practice A LOT!
 
mryan75 said:
Bear in mind that a plane where you can fill all the seats with people and go is very rare. Because of weight and balance, don't plan on 6 people = 6 seats.
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That would be a huge negative to my overall mission. We typically travel 9 hours each way to visit family (2.5 hour flight) 6-8 times a year, but would like to do it more frequently, so flying would be a huge help. Flying 6 people commercially would still take 6 hours due to layovers and cost well over 3k.

I am sure I am completely missing something, but 1980 Piper Saratoga has max useful capacity of 1650. 100g of fuel = 650lbs, me 200, wife 120, daughter 120, son, 80, daughter 45 and son 35 = 1280, leaving enough for some luggage. Now I don't know if useful weight includes nav and other items. Granted 2 of the kids are young, but by the time they are bigger the daughter will be out of the house.

That said, if it is not realistic to use a 6 person to fly 6 people and luggage, while I'll look to get my license it will just change the overall objective. Just trying to go in eyes wide open. :)
 
KramerK said:
That would be a huge negative to my overall mission. We typically travel 9 hours each way to visit family (2.5 hour flight) 6-8 times a year, but would like to do it more frequently, so flying would be a huge help. Flying 6 people commercially would still take 6 hours due to layovers and cost well over 3k.

I am sure I am completely missing something, but 1980 Piper Saratoga has max useful capacity of 1650. 100g of fuel = 650lbs, me 200, wife 120, daughter 120, son, 80, daughter 45 and son 35 = 1280, leaving enough for some luggage. Now I don't know if useful weight includes nav and other items. Granted 2 of the kids are young, but by the time they are bigger the daughter will be out of the house.

That said, if it is not realistic to use a 6 person to fly 6 people and luggage, while I'll look to get my license it will just change the overall objective. Just trying to go in eyes wide open. :)
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The rule of thumb is that you cannot put an adult in every seat in a 4 or more seater and fly with full fuel. But it all comes down to useful load. If the weight of your pax, their baggage, and fuel is at or below the useful load then you should be fine, assuming you load correctly for balance.
 
That could work. 100 gallons in that plane can be 5 plus hours so you can go partial fuel and have more room for boots and coots. Each airframe will be different.

You oughtta see what is carried in a 6 seater up here in Alaska.

I got up to commercial instrument before buying. Pro tip: Fuel and oil are cheap compared to principle and inspections.

How far away straight line are you planning on taking your crew?

http://www.barteltaviation.com/inve...le/28420421/1984-piper-saratoga?dlr=1&pcid=20
 
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Well I appreciate everyone's help and input. My take away was deal w/ the medical and that appears to be a bigger issue to overcome than I anticipated. Not sure it's worth it at this point given all the hoops I have to jump through, but I will continue to explore the process. Still - super impressed by what you all accomplish! Thanks again for the advice.
 
Let us know what transpires!
 
I’m not one of the “train in the plane you’re going to fly” crowd. I don’t think you can make a good decision on what you are going to fly until you’ve flown at least enough to get your ticket. If you can’t transition to another plane relatively quickly, you probably shouldn’t be flying your family around in the first place.

JMO
 
Take that discovery flight anyway! No medical required!
 
KramerK said:
Well I appreciate everyone's help and input. My take away was deal w/ the medical and that appears to be a bigger issue to overcome than I anticipated. Not sure it's worth it at this point given all the hoops I have to jump through, but I will continue to explore the process. Still - super impressed by what you all accomplish! Thanks again for the advice.
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One of my cut and paste about the flight medical....

Below is one of my copy/paste items about the FAA application for a medical certificate.



To gain confidence, and more importantly, knowledge, of what is involved with obtaining your first medical certificate, start by reviewing the instruction manual for MedXpress, the FAA's online form for applying for a medical. You can find that here: https://medxpress.faa.gov/medxpress/Content/Docs/MedXPressUsersGuide.pdf

Scroll down to page 24 of 36. This is where they ask about any medications you are currently taking (Question 17). If there are none, move to the next section. But if there are some, you will be asked to list the names, dosage, and frequency. Most medications are permitted. Some are not and will be a show stopper. Others may be an indicator of a medical item that the FAA will want to know more about. In many cases, the FAA will need a letter from your treating doctor that mention the medications, why they were prescribed, and how well they are helping you. During the examination, the Aviation Medical Examiner will ask questions about the medications and the doctors letter, fill in some blanks, and make notations on his side of the application form.

Now scroll down to page 26 of 36. This is the medical history section (Question 18). An important phrase here is "Have you ever in your life..." Review these items and see if any should be answered yes. If one or more is answered yes, then definitely do not go to an AME to obtain a medical certificate until you thoroughly know what the FAA is going to want to know about the item you checked as yes.

Some of these are minor and the documentation required is also minor. Others are big, BIG things, and while they might not be show stoppers, you will have to obtain more things that are the right things and in the right format and order in order to satisfy the FAA.

Again, do not go to an AME for a live exam until you know what information and documentation the FAA wants for the item(s) you marked "yes"​

How do you find out what the FAA wants? The best way is to have a consultation visit with an AME. This visit does not get reported to the FAA. All it is is a information gather visit with the medical examiner to find out what you need to obtain. If you are unable to find an AME in your area to do this, then reach out to Dr. Bruce Chien in Bolingbrook, IL, www.aeromedicaldoc.com Dr. Bruce is a member here and can answer your questions online. But direct emails are often more efficient and allow him to discuss things in a way he cannot on a public form.


Another important area of Question 18 is Question 18v. Alcohol and drug related motor vehicle actions. Question 18v asks about a history of “arrests or convictions involving driving while intoxicated by, while impaired by, or while under the influence of alcohol or a drug.” This would include arrests or convictions for offenses that were reduced to a lower offense, such as careless driving. This also includes offenses that were expunged by the courts after a certain time period. Pilots who have been ticketed for operating under the influence while driving a golf cart or a boat have also been required to report these offenses. Remember, your signature on the Form authorizes the FAA to search the National Drivers Register.

Do not try to lie or fib or skirt the issue here.... if you are found out... it is major bad voodoo.

If you do have an alcohol offense in your past, it is not a showstopper. But there will be some added steps to demonstrate to the FAA that you are worthy of the certificate in spite of alcohol being a part of your past life.

Moving on, look at page 28 of 36 and Question 19, which asks questions about medical professionals. If all of your past doctor visits have been routine things with no major medical issues. Then the FAA will say all is good, thanks for telling us about the visits. But if there were visits for particular medical things, then additional explanations about the reason for the visit, and the doctor's findings will be needed.
_______________________________________

I hope this helps. Do continue to ask questions as you think of them.
 
Start with an Archer or a 180hp Arrow (lots of arrows right now). Knock out your ppl and your instrument.

Yes, a Saratoga without an instrument rating is a bad idea, imo. Ended poorly for JFK, Jr. It’s a lot of plane and deserves the pilot to be up-to-snuff.
 
The initial Special Issuance for Obstructive Sleep Apnea isn't difficult to obtain, as long as you bring to the AME the proper supportive documentation. @Matthew has the current list
 
@KramerK ... where in this country are you located? Getting together with some local pilots for a Q&A session might be just the thing you need.
 
Rgbeard said:
Start with an Archer or a 180hp Arrow (lots of arrows right now). Knock out your ppl and your instrument.

Yes, a Saratoga without an instrument rating is a bad idea, imo. Ended poorly for JFK, Jr. It’s a lot of plane and deserves the pilot to be up-to-snuff.
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Ugh. Irrelevant advice. The instrument rating has nothing to do with the plane, and JFK Jr. would have had that same accident if he were in an Arrow, a Saratoga, or a Cessna 150.


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