Convincing power company not to obstruct runway

flyingron

flyingron

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FlyingRon
OK, we've got a power pole directly in line with our runway exactly 250' from the threshold. I suspect the pole predates the runway and the reason our threshold was set to keep the 20:1 plane clear of that pole. As near as I can tell with crude instruments, it's right at the 20:1 mark.

The power company is talking about raising the pole up another 20 feet, and I'm like NFW. Ideally, we'd like them to bury the stupid line, it's about the only electrical line in the entire neighborhood that isn't underground to begin with.

Does anybody have any strategies for dealing with these people? I've not got all the details, as the initial meeting to discuss this on site is next week.
 
Well, we did have someone near hit it. They nearly hit the base of the pole on a runway overrun incident. Of course, this is the power company that steadfastly refuses to put balls on a power line that runs across the lake because they believe that it would be admitting liability. The seaplane operators have been trying for that for years. They didn't even think it was a good idea when they had to restring them when a Bonanza clipped them one day (dumbass move, he's not a seaplane, just buzzing low over the lake).
 
If they are close to the 20/1 glide path, they need to light it, and maybe install a light failure alarm. A proper installation would have a pair of separate lights.

Possibly they will need to get FAA permission to raise the height. Someone here may be up to date on that issue.
 
find out the cost to bury the line and offer to split the cost.
 
Is this a registered airport or a private strip? I had wires just across the road from my runway threshold, I enquired about getting them buried and the cost. No word back from them for a couple of months, then, when they converted the line by adding three phase they put in new poles and buried it for me at no charge. May enquire whether they have a safety account as part of their budget.

Life is a barrel of fun.

Ken
 
geezer said:
If they are close to the 20/1 glide path, they need to light it, and maybe install a light failure alarm. A proper installation would have a pair of separate lights.

Possibly they will need to get FAA permission to raise the height. Someone here may be up to date on that issue.
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Lights are only required if the obstacle actually penetrates the 20:1, not just if it gets close. And “required” only means that if they aren’t, any instrument procedures will be NA at night.
 
Private strip, but part 77 applies to all civil airports. I suspect this pole (at its current height) predates the runway being extended to where it is. I've not talked to the developer yet, but I believe the reason our runway threshold is where it is set was to clear that pole with the 20:1 plane.
 
flyingron said:
Private strip, but part 77 applies to all civil airports. I suspect this pole (at its current height) predates the runway being extended to where it is. I've not talked to the developer yet, but I believe the reason our runway threshold is where it is set was to clear that pole with the 20:1 plane.
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Note that Part 77 applies to the airport, but not anything else. The FAA does not regulate local height zoning, they have no legal authority. If the local authority having jurisdiction allows a wind turbine to be built across the street from the threshold of the runway, all the FAA will do is require it to be lighted and charted, then restrict operations at the airport.

Airports that receive federal funding are bound by grant assurances, one of which is that the airport will work with the local AHJ to implement zoning restrictions to protect the airport. A private strip likely does not have such protections.

We had a case recently where the county allowed a 500 foot wind turbine to be built less than a mile from a private grass strip. The county followed all of their provisions for allowing a zoning ordinance, including notification of the neighboring properties and publishing notices in the paper as required by law. They did not look 2 or 3 properties away, just across the county line. The county was unaware of the strip. The strip owner was unaware of the project until it was starting to be erected. Now he has a wonderful obstruction to his runway and there isn't much that can be done about it.
 
flyingron said:
Private strip, but part 77 applies to all civil airports.
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Not exactly. Part 77 construction notification requirements apply to only public-use civil airports. 77.9d(1). Is your private airport open to the public without prior approval? If so, then it is protected.

Do you have instrument approaches? This has an effect on the outcome of the FAA’s determination after the power company files notice.
 
flyingron said:
OK, we've got a power pole directly in line with our runway exactly 250' from the threshold. I suspect the pole predates the runway and the reason our threshold was set to keep the 20:1 plane clear of that pole. As near as I can tell with crude instruments, it's right at the 20:1 mark.

The power company is talking about raising the pole up another 20 feet, and I'm like NFW. Ideally, we'd like them to bury the stupid line, it's about the only electrical line in the entire neighborhood that isn't underground to begin with.

Does anybody have any strategies for dealing with these people? I've not got all the details, as the initial meeting to discuss this on site is next week.
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Ask them how much they will charge to bury the line. Collect that mount from your neighbors and pay to bury the line.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Note that Part 77 applies to the airport, but not anything else. The FAA does not regulate local height zoning, they have no legal authority.
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True, but incomplete. Part 77 applies to anybody constructing near a public-use airport. Anybody building something or altering something that penetrates the surfaces listed in Part 77 has to notify the FAA, who will review the impacts it has on the airport and approaches to it. They will then issue findings, and a maximum height the construction can be to not interfere with the airport or approaches.

However, there are no teeth associated with that finding. They can go ahead and build anyway (example - the Comfort Inn near the approach end of LGA runway 4). I have heard vague suggestions of an FAA finding affecting the ability of the obstacle owner to get liability insurance, but I don’t know that for a fact.
 
I know of two airports in Eastern NC where the lines are buried only on the extended center line of the runway...

Here is one....NC99...Bagwell Airport on NC Highway 50...
https://goo.gl/maps/KTPzx5ZVfVm8NwcC8

Here is the other NC06 Tailwinds Airport

Both of these airports had to fight to get the lines buried. The story the Tailwinds guy told me that they convinced the power company that the extra material was down one pole and up the other... :D:D:D:D
 

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RussR said:
True, but incomplete. Part 77 applies to anybody constructing near a public-use airport. Anybody building something or altering something that penetrates the surfaces listed in Part 77 has to notify the FAA, who will review the impacts it has on the airport and approaches to it. They will then issue findings, and a maximum height the construction can be to not interfere with the airport or approaches.

However, there are no teeth associated with that finding. They can go ahead and build anyway (example - the Comfort Inn near the approach end of LGA runway 4). I have heard vague suggestions of an FAA finding affecting the ability of the obstacle owner to get liability insurance, but I don’t know that for a fact.
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Exactly my point. The FAA reviews the construction, but they have no power to do anything to stop it. It is up to the airport working with local officials to implement zoning requirements. If the proposed construction will interfere, all the FAA can do is limit the airport's operations or approaches, and make sure the obstructions are noted on the chart and chart supplement. As noted earlier as well, Part 77 applies to public use airports only. Private strips receive no protections.
 
I would threaten not to pay the airport electric bill, that will fix em.
 
pardon what may be a silly question...if the pole pre-dates the runway then why was the runway laid out the way it was?
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Ask them how much they will charge to bury the line. Collect that mount from your neighbors and pay to bury the line.
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Unfortunately, this may be the correct answer. Unless you happen to find someone at the utility with a bag of money who likes private airports. The utility has an easement, likely a lot of power under state law, and they love to use it. But even "we're the Phone Company, we don't care"A T&T agreed to bury their neighborhood fiber cross-connect if I gave them $40,000 (I didn't).
 
You can check with your state airport department; they likely will have aeronautical zoning requirements, same as the FAA. They may help advocate for you. Unfortunately, unless your airport owns an avigation easement for the approaches, they utility company can ultimately do whatever they like. So the best approach is to find out what the additional cost is, and pay for it.
 
rk911 said:
pardon what may be a silly question...if the pole pre-dates the runway then why was the runway laid out the way it was?
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It doesn't predate the runway, it predates the runway being extended by another thousand feet. The pole has been below the 20:1 plane for twenty years, but now the power company wants to make it taller.
 
JVerb said:
You can check with your state airport department; they likely will have aeronautical zoning requirements, same as the FAA. They may help advocate for you. Unfortunately, unless your airport owns an avigation easement for the approaches, they utility company can ultimately do whatever they like. So the best approach is to find out what the additional cost is, and pay for it.
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The pole is on a lot owned by one of our HOA members actually.
 
This example may help convince the power company to put balls on the lake line(s). Refusing to do that seems negligent to me.

This is a Google Earth screen grab of the my home drome's runway 15 threshold. The power line supports and numerous red balls show up best as their black shadows. If you look closely you can see the red balls.

I would think placing red balls on the lake lines would actually LIMIT any potential liability. "We did everything we could to mark the lines so low-flying aircraft could see them."
 

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Here?

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Why do they want to raise it? How does it compare in height to the nearby trees?
 
It's taller than the trees that are of concern. I can sit on the threshhold and look up at a 3 degree angle see the the pole Note that the runway threshold (hard to see the end lights in the above photo) are not even as far as the ramp of that last hangar...
 

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Note that I'm not recommending this! My Donald Sybert had a charted private airport and it had been there for many years. One day, someone decided to build a house NW of his field, and put a driveway across the Southern end of his long runway. One day the power company came and started to put up poles down this driveway. Don went over to them and told them this was an airport and they couldn't put a powerline there. They told him they had an order and it was out of their control.

He opened the tailgate of his truck and took a seat, watching them put up the first pole. When they were done, he got out his chainsaw and proceeded to cut it down. They were in shock, but didn't approach the crazy guy with a chainsaw. He went back to his tailgate and told them to get back to work putting up poles... he didn't have all day to cut them down! The Sheriff got involved, a lot of threats went back and forth, but at no cost to him, the line was buried and the issue was resolved! Again, not recommending this approach, but I sure had fun watching it!

51897361351_8df1fa502d_c.jpg
 
The base of the pole is ~25’ lower than rnwy elevation @ the threshold? That will be a tall pole if they add another 20’ to it if it’s already right near the 20:1 plane. Steel tower would seem more likely, and burying it would probably be cheaper for the power co. Fortunately, the big power line off the south end of our strip is lower than the tall trees.
 
Lowflynjack said:
Note that I'm not recommending this! My Donald Sybert had a charted private airport and it had been there for many years. One day, someone decided to build a house NW of his field, and put a driveway across the Southern end of his long runway. One day the power company came and started to put up poles down this driveway. Don went over to them and told them this was an airport and they couldn't put a powerline there. They told him they had an order and it was out of their control.

He opened the tailgate of his truck and took a seat, watching them put up the first pole. When they were done, he got out his chainsaw and proceeded to cut it down. They were in shock, but didn't approach the crazy guy with a chainsaw. He went back to his tailgate and told them to get back to work putting up poles... he didn't have all day to cut them down! The Sheriff got involved, a lot of threats went back and forth, but at no cost to him, the line was buried and the issue was resolved! Again, not recommending this approach, but I sure had fun watching it!

51897361351_8df1fa502d_c.jpg
Click to expand...

I have power lines running across my backyard that are almost as low as the gutters on my house. I called a few years ago to let the power company know that the lines are endangering my wife and myself and anyone else in the back yard. The power company came out and said yes, they are too low. Nothing done since.

There is a strong possibility that those lines may somehow come down when the spring winds hit....
 
Zeldman said:
I have power lines running across my backyard that are almost as low as the gutters on my house. I called a few years ago to let the power company know that the lines are endangering my wife and myself and anyone else in the back yard. The power company came out and said yes, they are too low. Nothing done since.

There is a strong possibility that those lines may somehow come down when the spring winds hit....
Click to expand...
It's odd how the break in a pole can look like a cut from a chainsaw!!
 
flyingron said:
OK, we've got a power pole directly in line with our runway exactly 250' from the threshold. I suspect the pole predates the runway and the reason our threshold was set to keep the 20:1 plane clear of that pole. As near as I can tell with crude instruments, it's right at the 20:1 mark.

The power company is talking about raising the pole up another 20 feet, and I'm like NFW. Ideally, we'd like them to bury the stupid line, it's about the only electrical line in the entire neighborhood that isn't underground to begin with.

Does anybody have any strategies for dealing with these people? I've not got all the details, as the initial meeting to discuss this on site is next week.
Click to expand...
Offer to bury the line for them. How much is it worth to all y’all?
 
Zeldman said:
I have power lines running across my backyard that are almost as low as the gutters on my house. I called a few years ago to let the power company know that the lines are endangering my wife and myself and anyone else in the back yard. The power company came out and said yes, they are too low. Nothing done since.

There is a strong possibility that those lines may somehow come down when the spring winds hit....
Click to expand...
The pole is on a corner and the road there further descends in both directions that the wire runs and it's a long way to the next pole I think. I'll see what Duke says on Monday. I appreciate all the input.
 
Lowflynjack said:
It's odd how the break in a pole can look like a cut from a chainsaw!!
Click to expand...
An old friend used to live on MD50. The HOA wouldn't let them cut down trees off the end of the runway unless they were diseased (the development was much larger than just the airport, only a subset of the owners used it). Ray cut the trees down. He said they got chain saw disease and it's usually fatal.
 
Local public use airport near here, the owner cut down a bunch of trees off the end of the runway... on adjacent state land. State charged him, of course. Everybody figured he calculated that as hefty as the fine was, it was still cheaper than the legal costs of getting the state to allow him to cut them down. He was wealthy and could afford it anyway, and it wasn't like they could put them back.
 
Have you called the state aviation department? In Virginia the Department of Aviation has lots of information and may be able to help negotiate on your behalf with the power company or private developers who are trying to encroach on airport right of ways.

Hope this idea helps.
 
I know Randy, but I'm in a different state now.

Actually, the owner of the lot struck a deal with the power company. He'll pay to have all the power lines crossing his property to be placed underground. So the pole isn't getting higher, it's going away. Remains to be seen if we move the runway threshold, but probably won't. At 3000' that's plenty for most of us (we've had a Beech 18 based here and a MU-2's been in and out a few times).
 
I’ve seen the Beech 18 there but not the MU-2. Was it there for the fly-in or a guest of an owner?
 
He's one of the lot owners, but he's not started construction on the house.
 
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